Are the exotic steels worth having?

[Odie]

I was looking at the Thompson benefit thread, and was admiring what Doug Thompson was doing for his friend......that's the thing about many in our special group of turners......they are very dedicated to the group, and a sense of friendly social interaction. Admirable, and I even checked out the Thompson site, just to consider it. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't see any M2 tools on the Thompson site......

When I first started turning, I had a few carbon steel tools, some marked HSS (which I assume are M2), and have since purchased many that are M2. It was about a decade ago that I purchased several tools that have harder steel, 2040+2060 I believe. After having used them, I came to the conclusion that M2 is the best steel for my turning.

The harder steels do certainly hold an edge longer......but, from my perspective, I found this to be problematic. Half of you are probably thinking I'm nuts at this point......and maybe I am......but, think about the following for just a moment:

As I see it, the only reason why a turner will choose harder steels, is to prolong the time when he will resharpen/hone. On the surface, this sounds like a great goal, but is it? What I've found is when a sharpened edge lasts longer, it becomes more difficult to make the decision of just when the tool needs the edge to be dressed. The harder steel and slower dulling makes the question of "should I, or shouldn't I sharpen" harder to make, and in turn caused me to go longer than I should have between dressing the edge. Most will agree that going longer than you should is nothing but making you work harder to get that perfect tool finish you're looking for. There is a point in the decision making where you question whether it's the sharpness of the tool, the characteristics of the wood you're cutting, and possibly the fine tuning of the tool choice and presentation. All of these things must be taken into consideration, and none of it is an absolute at this point in the life of the tool edge.

With M2 steel, the decision making process is made easier, because the tool wears a bit faster than the exotic steels. At the other extreme, carbon steels wear too fast.......so, from my own perspective, the best middle ground is M2.

I expect there will be those who reject all of this, and that's ok. We all do what we feel is best for our own turning, and for the group of turners as a whole, there is no clear cut path to the perfect tool finish for any individual's style. As a result of all this, I intend to stick with regular ol' M2 steel, the Sorbys, Taylors, and the like.......

It does help when sharpening/honing is far from thought of as a PITA, and done a necessary component of the turning effort......second nature. Some newer turners will find the harder steels to be a irresistible solution to not having to sharpen so often. From my point of view, the decision to purchase the exotic steels will actually be an obstacle to overcome, rather than a solution resulting in any positive benefit.

ko

 

[Bill Blasic]

Yes I'm in that half. A tool that stays sharper longer means the tool will last longer. If you know when you have to sharpen M2 you will know when you have to sharpen 10V or 15 V, there is no mystery there.

 

[Dale Miner]

Put me in the reject catagory.

The same thought process of 'is it dull enough to need a trip to the grinder?' applies to M2 as well as carbon as well as abrasion resistant grades.

Having said that, I originally and still buy Thompson gouges for the flute shape first, and steel alloy second.

 

[Odie]

Good morning Dale and Bill.........

Of course you know I expected to have the responses such as yours.....there will be more, undoubtedly!

I can only sit back with the confidence I've known in the knowledge I've gained by seeing from the lesser known perspective.

I'm off to work this morning.......have a good day, all.

ko

 

[hockenbery]

I have two 1/2" gouges ( 1 Thompson ) and one 1/4" gouge in the particle metal tools.
I like them just fine and especially the powder coat finish which prevents rust.
Also have a dozen or so m2 steel bowl gouges.

I haven't found any difficulty in telling when they need sharpening.
When there is resistance to the cut or bevel drag I sharpen.

I don't find the 1/2" gouges are cost effective over M2 steel.
I just don't find the edge lasting me longer because of my typical turning.
If I'm turning a 10" diameter natural edge hollow form I sharpen when:
I start
Before the outside finish cut
Before shear scraping the outside
Usually once more while shear scraping
Before the finish cut on the inside of the rim

Except for the shear scraping I am sharpening a still usable edge but want a sharp edge for each step whether it is m2 or PM
I also may sharpen in the shaping stage if I get resin buildup. Resin seems to build on the both steels about equal.

I use my 1/4" Thompson gouge for places where the 1/2" gouge won't work. I don't often run to to grinder before using it because it is always sharp.
I never leave home without it.

For a great bowl gouge it is hard to beat the Taylor artisan gouge CS carries.
Great price, flute design that makes Ellsworth grind perform to the max.

That said, I plan to buy a Jamieson parabolic flute gouge made by Thompson. Meant to get one at SWAT.

Al

 

[Gretch Flo]

That said, I plan to buy a Jamieson parabolic flute gouge made by Thompson. Meant to get one at SWAT.

Al[/QUOTE]

Al I have bought ellsworth gouges for several years. The Lyle Jamieson was selling his with parabolic grind and a few dollars less expensive. I think I have 3-4 of them. I like them alot. Then Lyle had Thompson make Jamieson tools with Thompson metal.
I have 6 gouges. one the Thompson. (labeled #5 of my 6) I sharpen all at the same time. When I want the keen sharpness I just grab the next gouge , and then go back to the previously used but not dull tool til I feel it isn't cuttiing as well as I'd like. Then I go the the previously hardly used gouge til it is dull or I need the newly sharpened tool for the cuts as you have described.
But , if using the blindfold test, I really can't say that the Jamieson/Thompson gouge "lasts" any longer. I may use it longer because "it;s supposed to". I still like it and can't say as yet that it'll last longer. Now that I have the wolverine sharpening system, my gouges last a lot longer than the sorby jig I used to have. Gretch

 

[hockenbery]

Gretchen, I too use 4 or 5 gouges at a time.

It is also useful to emphasize the obvious: the Ellsworth ground gouge has two distinct sides.
If I'm doing a 10"'diameter natural edge bowl
I shape the outside with the left side of the gouge between centers.
When it is in the chuck I finish cut and true the outside with the right side of the gouge which has a fresh unused edge.

I sharpen before turning the inside wall, here the magic of the Ellsworth grind is that I use the right side to remove the waste
and get the wall within a 1/16 of thickness with the right side of the tool
Then use the shear cut on the left side of the tool which sees light duty and stays sharp to get to finish thickness.
Working in 1-2 " increments from the rim to the bottom this usually yields a surface that can be sanded with 220.

The shear cut is for intermediate level turners and is best learned hands on.
The flute up use of the tool makes a spectacular catch if you do it wrong.
If you do it right it cannot catch.

I suspect people who give up on the side ground gouge either haven't learned the shear cut or fell in love with the Michelson grind.

Al

 

[Hu Lowery]

knowing or not knowing what you are buyng

When you buy lower end or unknown tools marked HSS or M2 you don't really have much of a clue what you are buying. I suspect the same with some of the big supplier brands. Past experience, they contract the item made to their specifications and slap their brand on it. It all comes down to quality control then, how much the manufacturer and the people branding the tool insist on.

I can say M2 is near worthless as a turning tool, I can say there is very little difference between M2 and 10V. Both are true. Depends on the quality of that particular piece of M2 and how it was heat treated. Another issue, I'm pretty sure M2 is much less tolerant to being overheated when shaped or sharpened.

I'm using M2, 10V, and HSS mystery steel as I think that some marketers play pretty fast and loose with the HSS designation. The better quality M2 and 10V steels get sharpened when they are still far sharper than the low grade steel which dulls rapidly. Usually I just hone the edge three or four times between grindings and the lightest touch grinding restores the full bevel. The softer M2 requires noticeably more grinding after honing a few times to restore the full bevel.

I am very much up in the air about the differences between 10V and 15V. According to my understanding, Doug Thompson sees little value in going to 15V steel. Documentation by the manufacturer of both and independent testing strongly indicates that 15V is both a superior cutting instrument and at the very least as cheap as 10V when considering service life. It is hard to argue with Doug's experience though.

Perhaps the major advantage of the particle metal steels over M2 or similar steels is the consistent quality that is guaranteed. These are low production specialty steels with tight manufacturing controls. Past experience with other alloys when they were manufactured offshore lead me to suspect that "M2" or "HSS" manufactured at minimum costs will be a far cry from the best of the same alloy designation. The same will be true of the particle steels if they are ever manufactured with cost being the primary criteria but as of yet that doesn't seem to be an issue and some of them are proprietary single source steels meaning that one company has total control of all production of that steel.

I am quite happy with some of my standard steel tools, some are junk. I can't remember ever reading of a particle steel tool that someone thought the steel itself was junk. There is little to no cost difference between the best M2, tools from similar steels, and 10V tools of the same size and design.

Quality assurance and consistency might be the best reason to buy 10V tools. The supplier is another consideration. Everything I have ever read about Doug Thompson has been positive, I had a very nice conversation with him on the phone when I wasn't buying anything, and what he has just done for a friend in wood turning is amazing. Confidence in who you are dealing with is large and makes it far easier to be comfortable that everything concerning a purchase will be satisfactory or dealt with properly if there are any issues.

My best tool for the job depends more on balance, size, and shape than the steel it is made of. I do favor the tools that stay sharp longer if I can do the job with them.

Hu

 

[robo hippy]

Well, this comes along at a convenient time for me as I am plotting a sharpening video, much more involved than the short clip I have up on platform sharpening....

I have a bunch of the Thompson 10V tools, and several of the D Way M42HSS tools, and some old Craft Supply Artisan M2 tools. I do prefer the the Thompson and D Way to the standard M2. Main reason is that they will keep a 'working' edge a lot longer than the M2. This, to me means that I can do a lot more roughing before the tool needs to be sharpened compared what I can do with standard M2. Other than that, I ALWAYS start my finish cuts with a fresh edge. I don't hone, and have never noticed that it made any real difference. I can tell no difference in edge wear from the 10V and the M42, and my friend on the one sharpening clip, Larry Karlin, who can give a weather report for the next week by how his myrtle trays are cutting (700 or so a year for over 20 years) said he couldn't tell any difference either. I have found this to be true with scrapers and gouges, and with burnished burrs and grinder burrs on my scrapers.

There are arguments about some tools being able to be sharpened to a keener edge. As near as I can tell, the fine edge is more a result of how you sharpen, and not the steel. Most can take a pretty similar edge, but some are easier to get to that point than others.

As near as I can tell, tool wear comes more from how we sharpen rather than the steel. Most of us will way oversharpen. One pass should be all it takes unless you have hit a glass insulator, or nail.

I don't use the swept back grind at all any more. The two advantages I can see with them are one in roughing as you can put more metal into the cut than you can with a more conventional grind. Non factor to me as my scrapers can do the same thing, and seem to be way more effective for heavy stock removal, both in mass and in stability. Pretty much the same thing with shear scraping/cutting. I use swept back scrapers a lot, and hog off with the nose, and shear scrape with the wing. The advantage you have with a scraper is that you can see the cutting edge when you shear scrape, and with a gouge, you have to roll it way over, and the bottom of the gouge covers your line of sight. Main experiment for now is burr from 180 CBN wheel vs burnished burr. Oh yea, upside grind burr to right side up burr....

Odie, I have known you were nuts for a long time. Most of us have a few nuts in the family. My family however has a whole orchard.... Okay, a couple of orchards...

robo hippy

 

[john lucas]

Well in all honesty it's a challenge to tell when a tool
Is dull that's why most of us sharpen often. Are the particle metal tools worth the expense Well it all depends on what you pay. They aren't much more expensive than good quality HSS tools anymore. For roughing out bowls I do think they hold a decent edge much longer. I had to turn a nuch of aluminum one weekend and I could barely make one pass before it was too dull to cut with HSS I could turn the whole
Piece with a Thompson particle metal tool
I go with the theory if you make a cut and it doesn't feel right stop and sharpen. That all most always works no matter what tool I use

 

[john lucas]

Actually when you think about it every tool purchase we make is value based. I still love a couple of Packard house brand tools that I purchased that were inexpensive and probably not top of the line steel.
Going back to the particle metal steel I wouldn't trade my Thompson skew for anything else. That's a tool that works best when it's very sharp and it just keeps on cutting.

 

[hockenbery]

Actually when you think about it every tool purchase we make is value based. I still love a couple of Packard house brand tools that I purchased that were inexpensive and probably not top of the line steel. Going back to the particle metal steel I wouldn't trade my Thompson skew for anything else. That's a tool that works best when it's very sharp and it just keeps on cutting.

John,
I sharpen differently when spindle turning and hollow form turning.
When doing spindle work I sharpen the tools when they need it.
When bowl and hollow form turning I sharpen before all my finish cuts whether the tools are sharp or not.
And I guess in the scheme of things nearly every spindle cut is a finish cut.

Al

 

[Odie]

Well in all honesty it's a challenge to tell when a tool
Is dull that's why most of us sharpen often.

Well.....this thread turned out to be a very interesting thread, and thanks to all who contributed. There were many things expressed that I have an urge to comment on, but I'll keep it (sort of) short!

This comment of John's resonated with me in particular. The difference between what is sharp, and what is dull will vary with each individual turner.....that gap can be quite large, or very narrow, depending on whose definition we're contemplating. Someone else said that he sharpens long before the tool is dull, and I'm in total agreement with that......and again, this depends on what my definition of what dull is, as compared to what someone else's definition is. I'm in the same camp with those who sharpen long before the tool is obviously dull.....in fact, some turners would call my tool sharp, whereas I would call it dull.

John mentions that it's not always easy to decide when to sharpen, and when to go on. This cuts to the heart of my original post, and why I'm so adamant about sticking with M2.....even though I know very well that it won't hold an edge as long as the more exotic steels. While at work today, I thought about this some, and the best way I can further describe what I've been trying to convey, is to imagine the time lapse between sharp, sharp enough, not sharp enough, and dull. When you pass through each porthole in more rapid succession, the differences between all four stages become more apparent when crossing from threshold to threshold.....there is much less guesswork involved. When the tool holds an edge for a much longer time, the threshold between each level of sharpness becomes a little more blurred. This rapid succession of stages is what helps me to be in better control of the decision making process.

As with before, all this isn't an effort to convince anyone else to change their ways, or thinking......it's just my attempt to describe my point of view in a way that some others might gain an insight into my outlook on this......still, the half that thought I was totally nuts before, will still think I'm completely bonkers now!

ko

 

[Bill Boehme]

Figuring out when a tool is dull is not an exact science. It makes a big difference to me if I am doing light finishing cuts vs. roughing cuts. You mention hardness, but I suspect that most turners don't really differentiate hardness from some other steel characteristics. One of the prominent characteristics of high vanadium steel is toughness which is touted to resist wear better than M2 and supposedly hold an edge longer. The tempering process that Thompson uses is supposed to enhance this edge holding characteristic.

Personally, I don't obsess over all this. I buy the tools that I like and sharpen them when they get dull. I have several Thompson tools. I am not sure which, if any, are V15 steel. Which of all my bowl gouges lasts longer between sharpenings? Beats the heck out of me ... how can I make any sort of comparison when I use one gouge to turn a dry piece of mesquite and another gouge to do the final finishing on a piece of maple. My favorite is a Sorby half-inch bowl gouge ... probably because it is the first one that I bought. I have a ¾" Henry Taylor Kryo bowl gouge that seems to really last a long time between sharpenings, but the grind on it (as well as most of my other bowls gouges) is somewhat different from the others. It has a 45° nose and fairly steep wings compared to the others. Maybe it is the shape of the grind that matters. Maybe it is the phase of the moon. I'll wait until the next full moon on April 4 to see if I notice anything other than my teeth getting sharper.

 

[Shawn Pachlhofer]

Al I have bought ellsworth gouges for several years. The Lyle Jamieson was selling his with parabolic grind and a few dollars less expensive. I think I have 3-4 of them. I like them alot. Then Lyle had Thompson make Jamieson tools with Thompson metal.
I have 6 gouges. one the Thompson. (labeled #5 of my 6) I sharpen all at the same time. When I want the keen sharpness I just grab the next gouge , and then go back to the previously used but not dull tool til I feel it isn't cuttiing as well as I'd like. Then I go the the previously hardly used gouge til it is dull or I need the newly sharpened tool for the cuts as you have described.
But , if using the blindfold test, I really can't say that the Jamieson/Thompson gouge "lasts" any longer. I may use it longer because "it;s supposed to". I still like it and can't say as yet that it'll last longer. Now that I have the wolverine sharpening system, my gouges last a lot longer than the sorby jig I used to have. Gretch

I'm curious - as I have been interested in buying some of the Jamieson/Thompson gouges

Have you done a direct comparison between the Ellsworth Pro PM and the Jamieson/Thompson gouges? Meaning - using the exact same grind on each - did one perform better than another?

I like Thompson tools, but not a big fan of his regular bowl gouge flute shape - so that's why I've been thinking about the Jamieson gouge.

thanks

 

[robo hippy]

Which shape cuts best is a whole different category... I think more than anything, that depends on how you present the tool to the wood. I hold my tools more level, so a more open flute works better for me because a more rounded nose gives a larger sweet spot. It is also a push cut. If I was doing a pull cut, then the more swept back design works better because of the dropped handle. There are variations of course. For me, it is more about the shear angle, or sheer as Lyle says. The higher the shear, the cleaner the cut. Most gouge noses will give a 45 or so shear angle. With one of Doug's fluteless gouges, I can easily go 70 degrees. Same with some of the pull cuts. What really confuses me though is some times on pieces from the same log, the parabolic flute works better, but on the core, Doug's V works better, then on the next piece, Doug' U gouge works better, or one of the D Way at a 60 degree bevel, or a D Way at a 45/45 grind. There just doesn't seem to be a one gouge does it all solution. though many do claim the parabolic is the best. Some times the half circle gouges are great too.... I know, the spindle roughing gouge for a finish cut, rolled way up on its side, which some say to NEVER do.

robo hippy

 

[Bill Blasic]

Quickly the Thompson tools are not powder coated the black comes from the heat treating. I think many would be surprised if you checked the hardness of your tools from the tip to the end of the flute. I'm sure that on a lot of them you will find that the closer you get to the end of the flute the softer the steel becomes. Not so with the Thompson tools.

 

[robo hippy]

Same thing with the D Way tools. There is a hole in the end of the shaft, and they are suspended in the tempering chamber. For sure, that is a mark of excellent tool quality.

robo hippy

 

[n7bsn]

Same thing with the D Way tools. There is a hole in the end of the shaft, and they are suspended in the tempering chamber. For sure, that is a mark of excellent tool quality.

robo hippy

Robo is spot on. Take something like a Benjamen's Best and take the handle off, note that there is no hole. That means that often tools was put in a pile of other tools, in a basket (or rack) and then heat treated. Since there is no airflow around the tool, getting an even heat treat depends on if they left the basket/rack in the treatment long enough for the tools in the center to reach equilibrium. Often they don't, so the tools in the center are heat treated differently then the tools on the outside.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Many tools are tempered by induction heating that is only applied to about two inches of the end.

 

[Gretch Flo]

I'm curious - as I have been interested in buying some of the Jamieson/Thompson gouges

Have you done a direct comparison between the Ellsworth Pro PM and the Jamieson/Thompson gouges? Meaning - using the exact same grind on each - did one perform better than another?

I like Thompson tools, but not a big fan of his regular bowl gouge flute shape - so that's why I've been thinking about the Jamieson gouge.

thanks

Frankly, I am not sure what I got. They were ?crown Ellsworth gouges for several years (maybe got 4 of them over 4-5 years beginning ? 8-10 years ago. . Then I got the Jamieson parabolic with regular M2 when I was at a demo in Traverse City (where Lyle lives) , Think I got 3-4 over 4 years. Couldn't tell the difference, except Lyle's were a little less expensive. I wanted 2 more a year or so ago and Lyle said he ran out of the others as he was switching to the Thompson steel. I got the last of his old ones and then one of the new thompson/jamieson ones. The steel is obviously different (color and sound when grinding).(It is 5/8” diameter triple tempered CPM 10V steel—Cryogenic treated—Hardened to 62-64 Rockwell the entire length of the tool."-from Lyle's web site) However, I am not sure it lasts any longer between sharpenings than the others (Ellsworth, Jamison old m2) as mentioned in my earlier post. I use the same grind for my 6. I have a couple of other gouges for bottoms, and other cuts. Sorry I don't have any science in this, Gretch

 

[robo hippy]

I had to go check because I thought David had switched to a different metal for his gouges, but from Packard, they are M2 HSS. I do have one that is maybe 10 years old, and I keep it with a swept back grind for show and tell. I don't use it though. From my experiences with other M2 HSS tools, the 10V does keep the working edge better, but not really the finish cut edge. I also still have an old Packard 'lasts 5 times longer' gouge from the same time. When I first got it, I used it non stop for a couple of months, then one day switched back to the Ellsworth gouge. Huge difference was noted as in the Packard gouge kept the edge a lot longer. When switching back and forth on each bowl, I didn't notice it very much.

Gretch, are you using CBN wheels to sharpen on, or standard wheels? There is some debate that the V10 needs to be sharpened on CBN rather than standard wheels for the better cutting edge.

robo hippy

 

[john lucas]

Not true about different steels needing different grinding medium to get a superior edge. You may have to grind or hone longer on the harder steels but I've been playing with this concept for about 5 years now and you can get a razor edge on any steel with any medium. Some are more efficient at grinding certain steels but I e used everything from white pink blue , sandpaper CBN and diamond bones. All work. You just have to learn how yours works to get to that superior edge
Unfortunately I moved and I'm without a shop for a while so I can't finish the test I'm doing that will include micro photographs of the edge but what it amounts to is any steel from high carbon steel to particle metal will sharpen to a keener edge than we really need for woodturning and you can use just about any medium to get there if the grit size is small enough.
Now granted this wasn't a scientific test but I've done enough turning and sharpening to have a pretty good idea that what I say is accurate
Now edge holding is a different matter and I simply don't know how to test that. It gets far to complicated
What it all boils down to for me is simply is the flute shape what you like to be able to get the grind you prefer and allow the cuts you like. And are you comfortable with the price and maybe even who you buy the tool from since you are in effect supporting them
It's fun playing with different steels but in reality I'm more interested in what I make than the tool it tool it took to get there. I have 6 or more old screwdrivers and a few files ground to certain shapes that I use on a regular basis and they do the job quite well

 

[Bill Blasic]

I won't argue that any media can get 10V or 15V sharp. I will say that CBN does it better and faster and wastes way less steel. The fact that CBN seems never to wear and is always the same size lets you take one quick very light pass to get amazing sharpness. The repeatability of the CBN to give you that edge is worth every penny that they cost. I'm going to have to set up a way to measure the length of the tool because I would be very surprised if I was taking off more than a couple thousands at each sharpening with the CBN.

 

[Gretch Flo]

Gretch, are you using CBN wheels to sharpen on, or standard wheels? There is some debate that the V10 needs to be sharpened on CBN rather than standard wheels for the better cutting edge.

robo hippy

I am using the white wheels on slow grinder. Haven't joined the "band wagon
with CBN wheels. Can';t justify the expense. My wheels on slow grinder have lasted ? 2 years, and are lastoing alot longer than the faster grinder wheels. I am guessing I should get another 5-6+ years. I use the grinder often. For example, Yesterday I sharpened all 6 of my ellsworht/jamieson gouges (should last me for 3 medium/med small bowls), and sharpened my tear drop scraper, bowl bottom gouge once.-working on one bowl. Gretch

 

[Odie]

I think we discussed this point before, and the general consensus of the forum members was that all of the steels used for lathe tools are equal, in regards to the level of sharpness they are capable of achieving. Just how to get to that level may vary in the technique used.

It seems to me that the only solitary reason why someone would choose any of the more exotic steels, is solely it's resistance to wear.....it lasts longer between dressing. Am I correct about that?.....or, is there any other practical application that would make one choose other steels?

(I realize some might choose a particular brand out of loyalty, or because they like, or trust the person who sells them.....I'm asking about reasons that may make a turner choose a particular steel, once it's in your hands, in your shop, other than longevity?)

ko

 

[Hu Lowery]

particle steel sharpening

Particle steel relates to our standard aluminum oxide type grinding wheels in a way. There is a harder particle held in softer material. This particle is harder than most grinding wheels. Think about that just a second, the hardest part of the gouge metal is harder than the grinding wheel, held in a softer matrix.

When we cut the particle steel gouges with CBN or Ceramic wheels the wheel is harder and capable of cutting the harder particles, when we sharpen with a white wheel to use a common example, it can only cut the softer metal and the hard particles are torn away as they become unsupported.

I don't know how big the particles actually are in particle steel. However, at some point when we achieve a razor sharp edge, it seems that the edge would have to be thinner than the harder particles. Since we can't cut these particles with aluminum oxide they have to be gone right there at the razor edge where they are needed most. The super keen edge on our wonder tool may be entirely the base metal without the harder particles that are the reason we bought the wonder steel to begin with, other than it being the only way to purchase certain grinds.

When we sharpen with CBN it cuts the harder particles and leaves them on the keen edge we are using for cutting, particularly the very fine CBN wheels. Now we are cutting with the materials we purchased the wonder metal for.

The above is based on my understanding and I may be totally out to lunch. I spent several days researching and found it impossible to find information concerning the actual size of particles or the characteristics of the metal they are bound in. The base metal alone may be far inferior to a good piece of M2, easy to imagine it being no better.

Using a white wheel or similar I am inclined to use M2 for my final passes. Using CBN to sharpen, particle metal might be equal to or superior to the edge I get on M2 and should hold at least portions of that edge longer. According to the information available, 15V will have more and smaller particles on the cutting edge than 10V.

Ultimately without technical information that doesn't seem to be available to the general public we are doing a lot of guessing as to what is going on at the cutting edge. Someone had an electron microscope available on another type of forum years ago. I would like to see what cutting edges looked like viewed at that level. Does a cutting edge stand up to the abuse slowly wearing away as I envision? Is it bent over or torn away at the moment of contact? I would like answers to these questions but without them Gretch's empirical evidence which she apologizes for not being "scientific" might be the very best type we have. In my time in R&D I never found a time when empirical evidence didn't trump all the theory in the world!

Hu

 

[Gretch Flo]

Hu, et al. If it's more expensive it should be better, right???? grinders, gouges, fishing lures, cars, clothes, etc, etc. A good marketing "tool"!!!!1

Gretch

 

[john lucas]

Interesting thought Hunbut I don't think it's accurate. At least not to the degree we can sharpen. The reason I say this is that I did my razor sharpness test using silicone carbide sand paper up to 2000 grit before going to polishing abrasives. I don't know but would suspect aluminum oxide and silicone carbide are similar in hardness. I don't have any idea how hard particular particles of the powdered metal a thallus are. They rate the tool hard ess at 92 to 94 Rockwell. This metal isn't the same as carbide which does have small hard particles. Powdered metal is relatively soft until it has gone through the hardening process

 

[john lucas]

Hu. Sorry about the typo on your name. I can't edit after the fact on my phone. Hope to have my computer back shortly

 

[Bill Boehme]

... It seems to me that the only solitary reason why someone would choose any of the more exotic steels, is solely it's resistance to wear.....it lasts longer between dressing. Am I correct about that?.....or, is there any other practical application that would make one choose other steels?

(I realize some might choose a particular brand out of loyalty, or because they like, or trust the person who sells them.....I'm asking about reasons that may make a turner choose a particular steel, once it's in your hands, in your shop, other than longevity?)

Your statement in parentheses is contradicting what you said in the preceding statement. Perhaps if you rephrased it to leave out the part about "only solitary reason" then perhaps you could argue that wear resistance is one reason. But, there are more reasons that we can imagine that people do what they do about any decision they make and practicality may not play a part.

I think that John Lucas summed things up as well as can be done. He said that he was concerned that his tests were not controlled the way that a scientific test would be, but then when we are shaping wood on the lathe, we're creating something ... not doing science experiments. There are too many undefined variables, too many different ways of using a tool, too many different characteristics of the medium that we are using, too many different ways of shaping an edge, too many different sharpening methods, etc that a controlled test doesn't really translate into real world application unless the characteristics of the steel are dramatically different. About the only dramatic difference that is obvious would be the difference between carbon steel and high speed steel with respect to holding an edge.

 

[Odie]

Your statement in parentheses is contradicting what you said in the preceding statement. Perhaps if you rephrased it to leave out the part about "only solitary reason" then perhaps you could argue that wear resistance is one reason. But, there are more reasons that we can imagine that people do what they do about any decision they make and practicality may not play a part.

I think that John Lucas summed things up as well as can be done. He said that he was concerned that his tests were not controlled the way that a scientific test would be, but then when we are shaping wood on the lathe, we're creating something ... not doing science experiments. There are too many undefined variables, too many different ways of using a tool, too many different characteristics of the medium that we are using, too many different ways of shaping an edge, too many different sharpening methods, etc that a controlled test doesn't really translate into real world application unless the characteristics of the steel are dramatically different. About the only dramatic difference that is obvious would be the difference between carbon steel and high speed steel with respect to holding an edge.

Didn't mean to confuse you Bill......I understand loyalty and trust for the brand, or the person who sells his product, but it was my attempt to ask if there were any other practical applications, other than an edge that lasts longer. To my thinking, there isn't any other practical application.....but, who knows what else others might find advantageous to their turning efforts......? Just throwing that out there, fishing for what others might be thinking......

ko

 

[JeffSmith]

While I don't consider myself an expert on metallurgy or even turning for that matter, it seems to me that an edge that lasts longer has a number of implications that all stem from the edge lasting longer. I use Dave Schweitzer's D-Way Tools for the most part - M42 HSS hardened to R67 - the gouge lasts longer, sharpening (on CBN wheels in my case) doesn't occupy as much time - a quick touch up is all, and I find that very often a quick honing of the edge before a finishing cut is all that's required. Turning goes just a little quicker without having to stop and sharpen as often as I used to do with M2.
But I've got to say that Dave's tools are tumbled after they're hardened, then he polishes the flutes so that shavings fly off the gouge like no other gouge I've tried. It's a couple of extra steps that make a real difference in both the quality of the tool and the quality of the turner's experience.

Is the steel the difference? Who knows. The tools are better, though.

 

[Hu Lowery]

gotta be better if it costs more!

Interesting thought Hunbut I don't think it's accurate. At least not to the degree we can sharpen. The reason I say this is that I did my razor sharpness test using silicone carbide sand paper up to 2000 grit before going to polishing abrasives. I don't know but would suspect aluminum oxide and silicone carbide are similar in hardness. I don't have any idea how hard particular particles of the powdered metal a thallus are. They rate the tool hard ess at 92 to 94 Rockwell. This metal isn't the same as carbide which does have small hard particles. Powdered metal is relatively soft until it has gone through the hardening process

John,

There is an aluminum oxide ceramic that is similar in hardness to the silicon carbide ceramic. However not all aluminum oxide abrasive is considered a ceramic and the nonceramic aluminum oxide is substantially softer and a poorer choice to shape or sharpen powder metals according to my homework. I forget if this was from the maker or primary US supplier of the CPM steels.

I would expect the silicon carbide sandpaper to do a fine job sharpening the particle steel but at some level the white wheel can't sharpen to the same level. Is this significant? I don't know.

I spent a couple rainy days researching all this a few months ago. The hardness of most of the quality tools we use is around HRC 62 with the exception of Jeff's M42. Toughness,(the ability to absorb shock without damage) and wearability are all over the place though and even a few points on the Rockwell "C" scale can affect these other numbers quite a bit.

Some interesting reading here but if I recall correctly it seemed to me they combined two similar attributes to exaggerate the differences between the metals. Even so, just how similar they found some metals to be will probably be surprising.

http://www.morewoodturningmagazine.com/reviews/Tool Wear Testing by Jim Staley.pdf

If I were paying a big premium for particle metal it seems like it would be best to buy the best available for maximum benefits. This testing didn't show huge differences in performance between 10V and conventional metals.

Hu

 

[robo hippy]

I will admit that I do have my brand loyalties. For me, it is D Way and Thompson. I have to take some of my D Way and put the 45/45 grind on them. Other than steel/metal wear, it is flute design that appeals to me, though that is one I am still trying to figure out. Which flute design works best??? For sure, I don't like a deep V like some Jet gouges I saw a few years back. Maybe good for mumbly peg, but nothing else I could think of. If there is a difference between the D Way and Thompson gouges, it is the insides of the flutes. Daves are tumbled with ceramic beads and are more polished than Dougs. I really don't notice any real difference between them. I also don't care for the swept back gouges either, but that is a personal idiotsyncracy...

John, you really had me going on that 'Hunbut'.

robo hippy

 

[john lucas]

Still having to use the phone to post and tried to correct the spelling on Hu's name but it wouldn't let me One thing I've been trying to learn more about is the flute shape and how it affects the grind of the wings. Some u shaped flutes will let the wings get very thin when grinding a long swept back grind. I have a no name gouge a d the wings are probably 25 degree included angle. My Henry Taylor has a much thicker edge with the same grind. The thin wing is really great for pull cuts at a steep angle on tearout prone woods. However that edge doesn't hold up long. On the other hand a long wing on my ThompsonV gouge sharpens to a much more blunt angle. This is great for roughing either in a pull cut or push cut because that edge lasts forever Different sharpening techniques of course change that angle somewhat such as the almost convex edge of the wing on Johannes Michelsons gouge which if I remember correctly is a Thompson V with his own grind.

 

[Hu Lowery]

thanks for trying but no problem on the name

Still having to use the phone to post and tried to correct the spelling on Hu's name but it wouldn't let me One thing I've been trying to learn more about is the flute shape and how it affects the grind of the wings. Some u shaped flutes will let the wings get very thin when grinding a long swept back grind. I have a no name gouge a d the wings are probably 25 degree included angle. My Henry Taylor has a much thicker edge with the same grind. The thin wing is really great for pull cuts at a steep angle on tearout prone woods. However that edge doesn't hold up long. On the other hand a long wing on my ThompsonV gouge sharpens to a much more blunt angle. This is great for roughing either in a pull cut or push cut because that edge lasts forever Different sharpening techniques of course change that angle somewhat such as the almost convex edge of the wing on Johannes Michelsons gouge which if I remember correctly is a Thompson V with his own grind.

John,

No problem at all about the typo on the name of course. Between tiny screens and auto correct there are lots of funny spellings these days.

Speaking of bevel angles, I changed the protrusion sticking out of my vari-grind and found it made a lot of difference on the wing bevel angles. I matched my old bevel well back on the wing like I usually do and got more bevel angle than I wanted before it rolled over to the nose angle. It feels very awkward and unnatural to roll the gouge over as much as I have to now.

Right now my swept back wings are in a Michelsen grind, an Ellsworth, and as close as I can copy a Jamieson grind. I'm thinking that I want to standardize on the Michelsen or Jamieson grind. The Ellsworth has a little bit of hump right at the nose. Take that away and the differences between it and the Jamieson are negligible I believe and I could probably call my favored grind either name and not miss by much. In fairness to the people with grinds named after them I should probably call it a Hu grind because my efforts may not match the proprietary grinds as well as I hope! The Jamieson grind with a little bit of a secondary bevel on my 5/8" gouge is what I have used most, simply because it was all I had.

Left to right, the 5/8" Crown reground to something like the Jamieson with a mostly gone relief bevel in this image, a half inch Ellsworth, and a half inch Michelsen. M2, M2, and 10V respectively.

Hu

 

[hockenbery]

Still having to use the phone to post and tried to correct the spelling on Hu's name but it wouldn't let me One thing I've been trying to learn more about is the flute shape and how it affects the grind of the wings. Some u shaped flutes will let the wings get very thin when grinding a long swept back grind. I have a no name gouge a d the wings are probably 25 degree included angle. My Henry Taylor has a much thicker edge with the same grind. The thin wing is really great for pull cuts at a steep angle on tearout prone woods. However that edge doesn't hold up long. On the other hand a long wing on my ThompsonV gouge sharpens to a much more blunt angle. This is great for roughing either in a pull cut or push cut because that edge lasts forever Different sharpening techniques of course change that angle somewhat such as the almost convex edge of the wing on Johannes Michelsons gouge which if I remember correctly is a Thompson V with his own grind.

John,
For me the best flute shape is parabolic like the Henry Taylor gouges. They are a great flute shape for the Ellsworth grind.
V flutes are too pointy, the U flutes too wide. The parabolic flute has a narrow U bottom and V Sides

I use the leading edge of the wing a lot and the parabolic flute makes the ideal cutting edge on the front of the wing.

I anticipate that the jamieson gouge will be terrific.

Al

 

[robo hippy]

How sharp or blunt the bevel angle is on the wings seems to depend on the amount of roll you do. This may be why Stuart Batty claims his 40/40 bevel can't be done in a jig. I do believe there is at least some truth to this. The jigs limit how much roll you can do, and if the gouge doesn't roll enough, then you get a very steep/pointy bevel on the wings, which like John said, is why the 'thin' wings don't keep an edge as long. When you free hand it, you can roll over farther, and get a 'thick' wing. Yea, this would make an interesting play date...... Where are the transporters.....

robo hippy

 

[Bill Boehme]

Interesting thought Hunbut ....

It's interesting what Google will come up with when you search an unknown word.