Banjo 4,5 or 6 string that is the question?

[Bart Leetch]

In banjo castings is a .....

1. Is a banjo with a straight casting (tool rest hole aligned straight on) preferable?

2. Is a banjo with a off set casting (tool rest hole aligned on the left) preferable?

3. Is there another I am not aware of?

Thanks

 

[hockenbery]

Bart,

On some straight on banjos the post of the tool rest can bottom out on the locking rod. This limits how low the tool rest can be set.

I have run into this a few times In demos where the tool post does not go low enough to let a 1 1/4 hollowing bar cut on center. I think this was on jet 1642s


Much more important to me are the locking handles and their positions when locked.

The banjo lock should be about 6" long and the post lock 4-5"
Shorter locking handles need a whack with the tool handle every time.
I like doing demos on jet, powermatic, and woodfast lathes but I always give the short tool post lock a tap with the tool handle after tightening.

 

[Odie]

I'm guessing that when most turners were using faceplates, the banjo with hole on the left side had an advantage for reaching around the back side of a bowl.

Most turners are now remounting bowls in a chuck, so this advantage doesn't seem as important. Since I'm a faceplate turner, it does seem rather important to my methods, though.

ooc

 

[Mark Mandell]

I rather prefer the tool holder offset to the left as it provides for the fulcrum (the tool rest bar) to be as close to the wood as possible, thus giving more leverage but keeping the base clear of the rim of the workpiece

Stubby takes the idea further by making the post holder as a separate piece that is capable of being rotated 360° on the banjo casting.

 

[Bill Boehme]

In banjo castings is a .....

1. Is a banjo with a straight casting (tool rest hole aligned straight on) preferable?

2. Is a banjo with a off set casting (tool rest hole aligned on the left) preferable?

3. Is there another I am not aware of?

Thanks

Depends! Bluegrass, Clawhammer, Folk, or Classical style?

I'm still trying to figure out why American woodturners (that would be us) try to talk like Englishmen when we are in the vicinity of a woodturning lathe. They say banjo and we say tool rest base (except lately where it seems like we've abandoned our language in favour of a foreign tongue ..... aaarrrrgh! I did it again! Blimey!) They say grub screw and we say setscrew except in the presence of the aforementioned mechanical implement. Flat woodworkers have managed to fend off the invasion of foreign words (for example, we say C-clamp and they say G-cramp; we say bar clamp and they say F-cramp ... I think that they just want to show off and prove that they know the letters of the alphabet). Next thing you know, they'll invade our accounting system and we'll be using commas in place of decimal points. Who know where it will end -- our grocery store tabloids will probably have gossip about the Royal Family. I'm telling you, Bart, this is serious.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

I have run into this a few times In demos where the tool post does not go low enough to let a 1 1/4 hollowing bar cut on center. I think this was on jet 1642s

not sure on the 1642, when i had purchased it, i had already had a special hollowing tool rest made up so i could be on center, the first hollowing i did where i could not get low enough to be on center was the delta 46-760, i believe thats the model number, anyway it was a full size reeves drive model that had a high rpm start up, with the special tool rest i could hollow on center, and i use that tool rest on the 1642

i would like a tool rest holder to be offset to the left and maybe forward a little bit, while i am wishing i wish the 1642 tailstock would extend farther, i like that tailstock weight which is manageable without a gizmo

 

[john lucas]

I see advantages and disadvantages of each location. When the hole is to the left sometimes the tailstock will hit the banjo and you have to crank the tailstock quill out further than you want to and can't support the work or have to add an extension.
When it's in the center on platters you sometimes can't get the tool rest close enough depending of course on the shape of the tool rest.
The other problem I see is the height of the banjo. Some lathes will not let the tool rest go below the center point. I do several cuts where the tool rest needs to be lower. I also do some where the tool rest is quite high so the tool rest post needs to longer.
But for some really good banjo playing listen to this 9 year old kid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pf2dSj0Dffs

 

[Mark Mandell]

Who know where it will end -- our grocery store tabloids will probably have gossip about the Royal Family. I'm telling you, Bart, this is serious.

Haven't been food-shopping lately eh, Bill?

What goes in Vegas goes straight to the Palace now, in full color.:cool2:

 

[Charlie Knighton]

But for some really good banjo playing listen to this 9 year old kid

thesleepybanjoboys outstanding John, thanks for the link

 

[Harry Robinette]

The banjo and it's name are both American words.

 

[Harry Robinette]

The banjo and it's name are both an American word and instrument. So I would think a lathe banjo would be an American name.

 

[Mark Mandell]

The banjo and it's name are both an American word and instrument. So I would think a lathe banjo would be an American name.

Seem to remember that the term was coined by Oneway. Never did make the connection though.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Englishman/Canadian same thing (ducks for cover).

I used to get several English woodworking and woodturning magazines back when Barnes & Noble still carried them in their store here. I suppose that I was the only person buying them. Anyway, it enabled me to be conversant with our friends across the pond and sort of understand what they are saying.

Here is what I found at the Online Etymology Dictionary for banjo. It appears that the name of the musical instrument may be of African origin.

Here is a UK web site that describes the parts of a lathe. Note the last paragraph says, " In Great Britain the arm is sometimes called the 'Banjo'".

Here is another UK web site with definitions for all of the various meanings of banjo. See definition #3.

Pickin' and grinnin'.

 

[W Jack Young]

I think for me it's not so much the banjo as the tool rest !
which I have two of that both suck ! so after much thought
and reading all the above post, I'm going to go to my favorite
steel supplier and buy some select material to make several
tool rests of varying offsets and shapes this I think will
help a lot with some of the problems I have with proper tool
angel of attack to the wood

 

[Bill Boehme]

.... I think will help a lot with some of the problems I have with proper tool angel of attack to the wood

So, are you invoking heavenly guidance in designing your tool rests?

 

[hockenbery]

this I think will help a lot with some of the problems I have with proper tool angel of attack to the wood

Jack,

I appreciate tool rests that are comfortable to use and they must have a smooth surface. I carry a file when I turn on other peoples lathes and with permission dress the top edge of the tool rests so I get a smooth movement.

We often talk about attacking the wood and that is not the best description. jerry Kermode does a wonderful demo at symposiums:
"The art of non violent woodturning" it is about combining turning techniques, mindset, and philosophy to achieve better results.

I do most bowl turning with the tool parallel to the floor all tool rests have a flat top and work.
When a do a shear scrape and pull cut I drop the handle - some banjos and some tool rests can interfere with traveling the length of the rest.
Tool rests that have a sort of wide vee leading from the post to the rest are the most problematic in this regard.

Have fun!
Al

 

[Mark Mandell]

I think for me it's not so much the banjo as the tool rest !
which I have two of that both suck ! so after much thought
and reading all the above post, I'm going to go to my favorite
steel supplier and buy some select material to make several
tool rests of varying offsets and shapes this I think will
help a lot with some of the problems I have with proper tool
angel of attack to the wood

Save some time, go to the Robust site, and get yourself a couple. You'll be glad.

 

[Fred Belknap]

The banjo on my 3520 is off set to the left. I so far haven't found any advantage to it, now if the toolrest itself was off set I think that would be great. Doing NE bowls it is very easy to knock off a piece of the bark on the knot on the side of the banjo. Like John said it also forces one to run the tail stock out farther than is desired sometimes. Don't find it a large problem.

 

[Bill Boehme]

In banjo castings is a .....

1. Is a banjo with a straight casting (tool rest hole aligned straight on) preferable?

2. Is a banjo with a off set casting (tool rest hole aligned on the left) preferable?

3. Is there another I am not aware of?

Thanks

I suppose that on a lathe with a swing of 12 or 14 inches this might possibly be an issue, but I've never encountered a problem on my old Delta 1440 where the tool rest post is in line with the base cam lock. If somebody has a problem in getting the rest low enough then perhaps it would be easier to view the problem as the post being too long as opposed to the whole base needs to be redesigned. Looking at it that way makes the solution much easier and far less costly. There are major disadvantages of having an offset post.

Of course, the ne plus ultra solution is to get a lathe such as the Robust American Beauty where the neck of the tool post base is so long that there is no possibility of limited travel of the tool rest.

 

[hockenbery]

One other issue is the ease of repositioning.
Some of the offset rests are really wide and repositioning is a bit tedious.

I find the The Oneway and Robust banjos are easy to move, lock with a flip of the handle, the tool post locks are long handled and secure. I find the stubby banjo is a close second.

My least favorite tool rest is the one on the old Powermatic 24" machine, moving the banjo is a two hand operation for me.
They have greatly improved this on the new machine. Routine cleaning and a little ballistol or WD 40 help make all banjos more responsive.

ONEWAY and Robust make banjos to fit most lathes from 16-25" in swing

Al

 

[Charlie Knighton]

i do not have major problems with the banjos, but wish for a longer quill travel, and smaller foot for the revolving centers for jam chucking......

i end up cutting high on the piece because of interfance with the tool and center while jam chucking, i have the 1642, is there an after product that would help besides the extension for the quill (i end up with runout with extension)

anybody have any answers beside a nice $k vacuum chuck

 

[Bill Boehme]

i do not have major problems with the banjos, but wish for a longer quill travel, and smaller foot for the revolving centers for jam chucking......

i end up cutting high on the piece because of interfance with the tool and center while jam chucking, i have the 1642, is there an after product that would help besides the extension for the quill (i end up with runout with extension)

anybody have any answers beside a nice $k vacuum chuck

Charlie, you need to look at the MultiStar live center. Bruce Hoover (The Sanding Glove) sells them. You can get about six or so different tips for use with them and they are much smaller in diameter than the Oneway live center. They are made in Europe and for a while at the time that I bought mine they were very hard to find because the company had been sold and there was a break in production. Luckily Bruce was able to locate some in his warehouse. I believe that they are now back in production and readily available. They are expensive like the Oneway, but they are very well made and top quality.

 

[JeffSmith]

an offset option...

There's an option to having the post attachment at the banjo offset - Robust makes a dogleg that offsets the attachment point by 3" in whatever direction you want - works well with their low profile rest when turning a wide, shallow bowl or platter. Should work in any banjo that takes a 1" post.

Also - +1 on the Multistar live center - It was provided as standard on the Robust AB when I bought it a couple of years ago..it is a good option with a shorter profile than the Oneway - I still prefer the beefy Oneway most of the time, but use the Multistar on occasion.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

thanks Bill and Jeff

 

[hockenbery]

i do not have major problems with the banjos, but wish for a longer quill travel, and smaller foot for the revolving centers for jam chucking...... i end up cutting high on the piece because of interfance with the tool and center while jam chucking, i have the 1642, is there an after product that would help besides the extension for the quill (i end up with runout with extension) anybody have any answers beside a nice $k vacuum chuck

Hi Charlie,

You might consider Bruce Campbell's inserts.
They are long inserts with different points for the ONEWAY center and powermatic centers.
Just knock out the point that comes with the center an put in one of Bruce's.

I assume you have the powermatic center in your 1642.
http://www.artisansworkbench.com/Product info/coming soon.htm

This give a lot of working room around a 1/4" footprint.
I have a set and they work great. But it is a very tiny spot holding it so light cuts.

The Bruce Hoover center looks good,from the web site. I'm planning to check it out next time I see Bruce.
Al

 

[Charlie Knighton]

Al. thanks for the suggestion. i sort of destroyed the bearings in the stock jet revolving center when i monkeying around with a dogwood tree about 7 foot long......i now use the revolving center from precision machine....oneways diameter at its widest is about 1 3/4 inches i believe.....i hope the multi-star will help with the width

 

[hockenbery]

Al. thanks for the suggestion. i sort of destroyed the bearings in the stock jet revolving center when i monkeying around with a dogwood tree about 7 foot long......i now use the revolving center from precision machine....oneways diameter at its widest is about 1 3/4 inches i believe.....i hope the multi-star will help with the width

Charlie,

I'm not understanding something here.

I have a center similar to the Precision center craft supplies sells with 4 interchangeable points. I bought mine in 1995 so it may be a bit different.
I have used it a lot for reverse chucking and the small cup is under a 1/2" I'm diameter. It has a tapered shoulder and lots of working room around it.

The ONEWAY ( & powermatic) center is 5/8" diameter at the cup. When I reverse chuck I can put my 1/2 bowl gouge bevel against the screws on the cup and cut into the piece being reverse chucked. One cool thing about the ONEWAY center is that the wide part does not turn so it does not rub on anything that might touch it.

Bruce's inserts stick out of the cup about an inch. I can cut with my bowl gouge toward the insert or parallel to it.
Lots of working room for what I do

I have used the precision and one way centers to reverse chuck hundreds of hollow forms and hundreds of bowls.

You must have some issue I'm not comprehending.


Al

 

[Charlie Knighton]

i like to use a straight edge chisel or a box chisel instead of a gouge to do finishing cuts on the bottom, the revolving part sticks out more than the point of the center, i just raise the tool rest above the revolving part and angle the tool down to get to bottom, i cut off the nub and sand out

hope that helps

when doing the cairn box series, i make a tendon, chuck up that tendon, and make a cup on the other side, then i have to remove the tendon and make a hollow area to cover the cup on the piece underneath, some days its easier than other days

 

[Bill Boehme]

I'll measure my MultiStar live center later to see what its diameter is. It is much smaller than the Oneway and like the Oneway, the MultiStar does not rotate. The various inserts are easy to change out -- a tiny O-ring provides the friction to hold them in the revolving center.

 

[hockenbery]

i like to use a straight edge chisel or a box chisel instead of a gouge to do finishing cuts on the bottom, the revolving part sticks out more than the point of the center, i just raise the tool rest above the revolving part and angle the tool down to get to bottom, i cut off the nub and sand out hope that helps when doing the cairn box series, i make a tendon, chuck up that tendon, and make a cup on the other side, then i have to remove the tendon and make a hollow area to cover the cup on the piece underneath, some days its easier than other days

Aha !

You could make a straka/doughnut chuck to hold them.
Maybe use a suitable diameter of PVC pipe in the base of the chuck to hold it off the bottom.
The you have access to the whole bottom area straight on.

Handout for making one to hold a ball
http://aaw.hockenbery.net/Making a straka Chuck.pdf

These chucks can be made to hold bowls, NE bowls, ornament parts, box parts......

MDF is less than $25 for a 4x8
Bolts and nuts $5 for 4

Al

 

[Charlie Knighton]

Al,i have a bunch of leftover mdf from my multi-axis wallhanging pieces, should be able to make something. the second layer in the cairn box is the piece that is troublesome, none are exactly the same but the cup will be approximately the same.......its sort of like a donut chuck for bowls.....thanks for the suggestion

i may use a dedicated faceplate instead of the worm screw since i would hopefully use it more than once, the worm screw seems like would wallow out the hole after using it several times

 

[hockenbery]

Al,i have a bunch of leftover mdf from my multi-axis wallhanging pieces, should be able to make something. the second layer in the cairn box is the piece that is troublesome, none are exactly the same but the cup will be approximately the same.......its sort of like a donut chuck for bowls.....thanks for the suggestion i may use a dedicated faceplate instead of the worm screw since i would hopefully use it more than once, the worm screw seems like would wallow out the hole after using it several times

Charlie,
You are right about the worm screw hole not holding up. It is cut away later in the process.
the worm screw ( goes in what will be the hole in the top plate) centers the chuck plates for making the recess in the base plate.

When done a recess for the expanding chuck mount is used.
With MDF it must be and expanding mount.
a tenon in MDF WILL SHEAR OFF.

A dedicated faceplate would probably hold up the longest.

I have been using some MDF chucks with expanding recesses since 2007. They keep center well.
I have set that have been through a dozen workshops using the chuck recess.

Al

 

[Charlie Knighton]

Al,i saw your rotation Ball in a Ball @ the florida 2110 symposium, pretty good

 

[hockenbery]

Al,i saw your rotation Ball in a Ball @ the florida 2110 symposium, pretty good

Thanks for the kind words.
Al

 

[Chris Neilan]

Depends! Bluegrass, Clawhammer, Folk, or Classical style?

I'm still trying to figure out why American woodturners (that would be us) try to talk like Englishmen when we are in the vicinity of a woodturning lathe. They say banjo and we say tool rest base (except lately where it seems like we've abandoned our language in favour of a foreign tongue ..... aaarrrrgh! I did it again! Blimey!) They say grub screw and we say setscrew except in the presence of the aforementioned mechanical implement. Flat woodworkers have managed to fend off the invasion of foreign words (for example, we say C-clamp and they say G-cramp; we say bar clamp and they say F-cramp ... I think that they just want to show off and prove that they know the letters of the alphabet). Next thing you know, they'll invade our accounting system and we'll be using commas in place of decimal points. Who know where it will end -- our grocery store tabloids will probably have gossip about the Royal Family. I'm telling you, Bart, this is serious.

Remembering that in the 1920's thru the big band era, and then the 50's with bluegrass, banjos were highly popular. Anything remotely shaped like a banjo was called a banjo... Think clocks, auto brake parts, whatever... Now as to claw hammer banjo, that's just crazy! Been trying to learn that for a couple of years now... No luck! None of my banjos can play it... Can't be me that's lacking!

 

[Charlie Knighton]

Charlie, you need to look at the MultiStar live center. Bruce Hoover (The Sanding Glove) sells them. You can get about six or so different tips for use with them and they are much smaller in diameter than the Oneway live center.

thanks Bill, it has come in handy since i got it

Aha !

You could make a straka/doughnut chuck to hold them.
Maybe use a suitable diameter of PVC pipe in the base of the chuck to hold it off the bottom.
The you have access to the whole bottom area straight on.

Handout for making one to hold a ball
http://aaw.hockenbery.net/Making a...ka Chuck.pdf

thanks Al, used your idea with mdf with some adjustments for what i need on the second piece of a cairn box

 

[hockenbery]

Charlie,
Look like that will do the job.

Just a suggestion. You might round the edges of the hold down strips.
I sand the lead edges of my chuck jaws too.
I know you would not touch them while the lathe is on
but if it were to touch you, you would be privately embarrassed if they are rounded.
The sharp edge might grab some skin and pull whatever the skin is attached to into trouble.

I tend to work close to the work especially with my left hand and forearm.
I don't want anything that will catch and tear skin coming round if I can soften the edge I do.

I don't touch my chuck as a rule but sometimes I will feel a little heat from being too close when turning finials held in the chuck.

Al

 

[Charlie Knighton]

Just a suggestion. You might round the edges of the hold down strips.
I sand the lead edges of my chuck jaws too.

good idea on both items, first thing in morning..........never say never......takes just a moment

 

[Bill Boehme]

... I sand the lead edges of my chuck jaws too....

I rounded the edges of mine, also. I used a file. The jaws are not hardened very much so they are easy to file. Just a little bit of softening the edges can make of world of difference. I suggest that you DO NOT try this, but after I rounded the corners I can put a finger on the jaws while they are spinning and not have an injury. Your knuckle is a bit more solid so it might result in a bruise or even a cut, but nothing nearly as bad as leaving a big chunk of hide on the chuck.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

I rounded the edges of mine, also. I used a file. The jaws are not hardened very much so they are easy to file.

file sounds better than my 80 grit, thanks Bill