Bowl Gouge Help

[Mike Colley]

I just searched and read what I could find about flute shapes on bowl gouges, I am wanting to buy a new bowl gouge, either a D way or a Thompson, but I don't know which shape to order.
I have 2 Sorby gouges I have used for a few years, they are getting a little on the short side, and would like to stay with that flute shape, what ever that is on the Sorbys, I also have a Record Power V shape that I really don't care for.
If anyone could point me in the right direction

 

[Bill Blasic]

You won't go wrong with a Thompson V bowl gouge. You can put wings on the V flute where with the U flute you can't. I have way more control with the V than I do with the U and I feel the U is way more aggressive. My personal go to gouge is the Thompson 5/8 V. The last time Doug Thompson actually turned something was when he did a demo for my club in my shop, he turned a full sized cowboy hat complete with a 1/2" V and a 3/8" V. My ceilings are 10 ft tall and I still find chips high up on my wall on some of the high shelves from that demo which had to be over ten years ago.

 

[hockenbery]

If you use the Ellsworth grind
consider the gouge Lyle Jamison sells. It is made by thompson.

it has a slightly wider flute that excels in advanced cuts using the leading edge of the wing.

 

[Mike Colley]

Thanks for the info, I got the Sorbys along with a bunch of other tools with the first used lathe I bought several years ago, so that's what I learned to turn with,
I have them sharpened to Doug's instructions on his website, with swept back wings, so that's what I have been using for years, and have finally wore them out'
I have been turning for several years, self taught with the help of this site and you tube
So this is my first "new" bowl gouge, I have only used the Sorby's and don't know what would be better, I do know I want better steel, because with what I have been using, I have gotten pretty good at the grinder


Bill is the Thompson V rounded at the bottom of the flute , can't really tell from the pictures on his site,
I have a couple record power V shapes that came in a trade, that have a very small round at the bottom of the flute with really thick walls on the sides of the flute that seems kind of grabby, probably operator error, that's why I wasn't sure about Thompsons V

Al, I do have the wings ground per Thompsons instructions on his site, that's the way I first ground them and it worked so I kept them that way
I do mostly bowls, so I don't know if one flute shape is better or not.

 

[robo hippy]

The flute shapes of the Thompson V and D Way gouge are pretty similar, and work well for the 40/40 grind. They also work well for the swept back grind, but I don't use swept back grind gouges any more. I do have a Thompson U flute that I ground to a 60/40 shape, so 60 degree bevel with 40 degree sweep. Kind of my go to transition and across the bottom gouge. I have a number of other BOB tools as well.

robo hippy

 

[Mike Colley]

Robo, I know by your videos that you use scrapers to rough with, by the way thanks for taking the time to do them, is there a reason you don't use the swept back grind, reason I ask is, that is what I started with and haven't tried anything else, I just recently retired and now have time to play more.
tried anything else

 

[Doug Freeman]

There are 3 basic grinds for bowl gouges, Ellsworth swept back wings, 40/40, and traditional flat face grind. There are variations of the swept wing (Michelson) and traditional grinds. I find the swept wing grind the most versatile, and provides more edge to work with, thus longer between resharpenings. The 40/40 and traditional are limited in cuts they can do, but perform well at what they do best. All 3 work with a parabolic flute. None of the Thompson’s are parabolic, tho the one he makes for Lyle is a wider V and does well with an Ellsworth or Michelson grind.

 

[Tom Gall]

I have them sharpened to Doug's instructions on his website, with swept back wings, so that's what I have been using for years, and have finally wore them out'

So I assume you are using a jig (based on the above statement). You can grind a flat on the top of the gouge behind the flute to accomodate the jig. This will extend the life of your gouge by allowing for more sharpenings ..... but of course, it's always nice to get a new tool.

 

[Mike Colley]

Thanks everyone, I think i am going with the Lyle Jamison gouge.
I do use a jig to sharpen, and I have ground a flat on one.
The ones I have, I am sure I could get a lot more bowls from, But they are wore out, that's my story and I sticking to it

 

[Dean Center]

I own and use Thompson's V gouges. I also own and use some English-made gouges with parabolic flutes. In my experience, it's not feasible to put an Ellsworth grind on a Thompson V gouge. Al Hockenbery successfully uses the Jameison spec'd Thompson for the Ellsworth grind. BUT, that's not exactly what the OP asked.

Mike, if you like the Sorby's parabolic flute and do not want to change from it, I would recommend getting another English-made gouge. Crown makes them out of 3 different steels (Powdered metal, M2, M42) , Hamlet makes M2 and M42, and I'm not sure if Henry Taylor or Sorbymakes one from anything but M2. The Artisan gouges from Craftsupplies are probably parabolic and M2, made for them by one of the English firms.

 

[Mike Colley]

I don't know if I would like a different flute shape, the Sorbys were new and came with a used lathe, so they are what I am used to
I do know I want better steel, I will take a look at Crown, Thanks

 

[Dave Landers]

I'm not sure if Henry Taylor or Sorbymakes one from anything but M2

Craft Supplies does sell a line of M42 Henry Taylor with parabolic flutes.

I have a couple of these and a couple of the Crown Pro PM. I personally like Crown's steel a bit better, for most things.

 

[Bill Blasic]

Here is a photo of a Thompson V compared to a parabolic flute. Please tell me like on a finish cut say 1/64" of tool use or if you are taking a half inch of roughing cut, what difference it would make? Mike wanted to see the bottom of the V flute.

 

[Doug Freeman]

@Bill Blasic Looks like the Thompson on the right, is that Doug’s std V? It looks just like the one he makes for Lyle that I have. What is the one on the right?

 

[Randy Anderson]

I've been using some Thompson U flutes for a while now and like them. Took a bit of getting used to but with the heel ground off I find I can do better on inside and bottom bowl cuts with them. I don't sweep the wings back much. I still have and use some parabolic or V (I can't tell the difference) DWay that I do put swept back wings on that I mostly use for inside roughing out, outside shaping and sheer scraping then I switch to my U flutes for finish work. I'm far from having different angles on my gouges. For me consistency and predictability outweigh, for now, the difference I might get from different nose angles.

 

[robo hippy]

The main reason I don't use the swept back grinds any more is that I have no use for them. I know it is many turners go to tool. Why I stopped? Well, I switched to the 40/40 and specialized BOB tools. To me, the swept back grind is kind of a one tool does it all type of gouge. That means it does a lot of things well. However, when applied to bowls, I think the specialized tools out perform the 'does it all' tool. Best uses for the swept back gouge are a finish cut on the inside of the bowl from rim to center. Can also be used for finish cut from bottom to rim on the outside. I prefer the specialized tools for these cuts. The swept back gouge can do nice shear scraping cuts. I prefer dedicated scrapers with a burnished burr, and seem to get a better cut that way. I have frequently seen them used for the inside of a bowl, with the gouge held level, and some times this is called a shear scrape, but there is no shear angle at all. Best guess why this cut seems to clean things up nicely is that the wing is more of a NRS. Again, I have dedicated tools for this purpose, and again, the burnished burr.

robo hippy

 

[Mike Colley]

Bill, thanks for the pictures, it's a lot wider at the bottom of the flute than the V tools I have

Not sure I understand, does the flute shape describe the sides of the flute or the width of the bottom

Robo, As I learn by trying to get a better finish cut, that on the inside of a dried bowl I too am having better luck shear scrapping with a NRS
always trying to learn more and get a better finish cut, less sanding

 

[Bill Blasic]

@Bill Blasic Looks like the Thompson on the right, is that Doug’s std V? It looks just like the one he makes for Lyle that I have. What is the one on the right?

Yes that is Doug's standard V. The other is a Robust. I was going to do a review of them but Dennis retired the magazine and the Robust review was #5 in my queue. I passed the tools on for others to try.

 

[Dean Center]

Not sure I understand, does the flute shape describe the sides of the flute or the width of the bottom

The flute shape is the whole inside shape. It's basically the shape of the tool used to remove that steel from the round bar that the toolmaker starts from. Different makers have different shapes they like to make.

In the photos, to MY eye, the one on the right has angled but straight sides with a rounded bottom. The one on the left has a continuously curving side, with a subtly pointed bottom.

A parabolic flute is normally expected to have the continuous curve throughout the flute, just like a parabola from high school, including the bottom. The parabola could be narrower or wider overall, but it's still a parabola. (Some people refer to it as elliptical, but I was told there should be no math)

There's something about the straight sides on the Thompson tools that prevents them from reaching the true Ellsworth grind. The rounded bottom seems to keep the chips from jamming up during use, which was the knock on prior "V" shaped flutes.

I continue to think you should stick with the shape of flute you like, for now. Some day, when you're feeling competent, you can start trying out different grinds and different flute shapes and possibly find one you like better. At that point, you'll know that the difference in feel and results is the tool, and not you.

 

[Mike Colley]

I guess that's where I am now, I have been turning for several years off and on as work and life permitted, now I am retired and have time to play
I think I am ready to start trying out different grinds and different flute shapes and trying to understand the difference

 

[hockenbery]

think I am ready to start trying out different grinds and different flute shapes and trying to understand the difference

Treat yourself to a weekend class with top teacher.
there are many out there.
David Ellsworth, Trent Bosch, Ruddy Lopez are excellent and do classes in their studios.

they also do classes at Arrowmont and Campbell -