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"certificate of authenticity"........gimmick?

Odie

Odie

Panning for Montana gold, with Betsy, the mule!
TOTW Team
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I had not heard of giving out certificates of authenticity before. This turner offers it with his bowls for online sales. Probably not cool to mention by name, but he is a well known turner.

quote:
"This bowl measures 8.75" at its widest diameter and 1.75" tall at its highest point. The bowl is signed, numbered, and includes a signed “CERTIFICATE OF AUTHENTICITY."

Personally, I feel signing and numbering is mandatory, because it identifies the artist, and one specific work from that artist.

So.....what's the thought from the AAW gallery about offering "certificates of authenticity".....????? Will it help sales?

-o-
 
It might help sales, but it's a gimmick. A certificate of authenticity is only as good as the certifying authority, which in this case is the individual printing them.

Anyone with a small amount of computer skills could make and offer "certificates of authenticity" for any or all woodturners. Unless the individual issuing the certificates is willing to take suspected forgeries to court and prove their case, it is just a worthless piece of paper.
 
A statement of provenance and verification of authenticity of a piece valuable enough to be susceptible to fraud by counterfeiting would be important. Probably not gonna happen in our little corner of the world. Not with anything I make.
 
If the bowl maker in question has created a style of turning that is undeniably his own, and people are trying to copy it on a "production" level, maybe it makes sense? Malcolm Tibbets work might benefit from a CoA if other people dared to try producing his version of segmenting tubes and ribbons, for example... Im sure between AI and 3-D printers and CNC machines we will all be forced to have CoA's!!🤣

Or if it is turned by someone who is otherwise "famous." Maybe if Kim Kardashian or Shaq or Taylor Swift or Banksy start turning..... 🤑

If not, it's just ego in my opinion.
 
I do think this is a marketing strategy, possibly a bit gimmicky. I did find the turner you reference, Odie, and although his bowls are nice they are not unique. Or at least what I saw wasn’t recognizable as uniquely him. That said, if that what he wants to do, so be it. There may be some customers that care, but I would imagine most don’t.

Cases where I think a CoA is potentially useful and more than gimmicky:
  • Piece from a noteworthy deceased turner
  • Piece that is very unique to a specific maker where the customer base would really care (for example Tobias Kaye’s sounding bowls — aren’t they protected by a utility/design patent?)
  • Piece where the wood has significant historical or otherwise sacred value
These are special cases. I think it’s a bit silly for a turner to self-authenticate every piece he puts out. To each his own.
 
Tom Gall said:
I think it would help with sales IF the WOOD had some historical significance .... a tree or salvaged wood from a historical building, ship, etc..
If the "C of A" has anything to do with the maker ... hell no! That would be pretty arrogant.
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I could not agree more!!
 
Interesting thing to think about a bit. Seems to me in some degree that signing your work, along with whatever dates or numbers you put on them is a level of providing the same thing. It's just not a separate document. I agree with Michael and Tom on where it might make sense. That said, they do want it signed in some way. I've had a few times when I forgot to put my signature on the bottom and had them ask me to sign it before they leave with it. Nothing to do with me really. Just a bit of confirmation it was hand made I think.
 
I purchased 4 pieces of ancient Kauri and I got Certificates of Authenticity. To say that these were not cheap would be an understatement and when I do perhaps sell what is made from them I would include certificates. I was told that carbon dating of the tree put these at many thousands of years old. Call me dumb but I go down to the shop at times just to hold them and wonder what roamed the area where they stood so many many years ago. My second oldest piece of wood is an old 15 foot barn beam from a barn built 220 plus years ago, I know what was roaming about that wood😁
 
Bill Blasic said:
I purchased 4 pieces of ancient Kauri and I got Certificates of Authenticity. To say that these were not cheap would be an understatement and when I do perhaps sell what is made from them I would include certificates. I was told that carbon dating of the tree put these at many thousands of years old. Call me dumb but I go down to the shop at times just to hold them and wonder what roamed the area where they stood so many many years ago. My second oldest piece of wood is an old 15 foot barn beam from a barn built 220 plus years ago, I know what was roaming about that wood😁
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I've got a pen blank of ancient Kauri--have had it for 8-10 years, probably will never turn it. On the shelf next to it is a box with several Irish Bog Oak blanks that are carbon dated to just over 6,000 years--turn one of those from time to time. Very fun asking people what the oldest thing they've held in their hands is (besides rocks)...then seeing their faces when they are told how old the bog oak is!!
 
I was one of many artists who received wood from the maple tree from the Robert Frost Farm in Derry NH. He lived there from 1900-1911 and taught at Pinkerton Academy. The maple had to come down before it fell down on someone. I was present during the removal and documented the entire day on camera with digital images.

His farmhouse and grounds have been turned into a museum. It is believed that maple was the inspiration for many of his poems, including Tree at My Window. When I make anything from my stash, I contact the Museum Board of Trustees, and obtain a Certificate of Authenticity that accompanies the turned piece. The recipient also gets a set of images that I took.
 
From a collector standpoint, a signed COA can be very important. I have a piece I got from Binh Pho. He included a COA with several pictures of the piece, a physical description, retail value at the time of acquisition and his signature. His work is expensive enough that it might be copied. The COA ensures that future custodians have an authentic piece. Donna's comments above are another excellent example of why a COA can be important.
 
Jerry Bennett said:
A statement of provenance and verification of authenticity of a piece valuable enough to be susceptible to fraud by counterfeiting would be important. Probably not gonna happen in our little corner of the world. Not with anything I make.
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I’m going out to the shop today to do a knock off on “Maple Syrple”
this morning Jerry, haha!!

Now I did take your rotation on how you made it in San Antonio (I think)….somethings cannot be knocked off, even in this age of AI!! I guess FedEx “knocked it off” but that’s a whole other knock off.
 
John Ames said:
If the bowl maker in question has created a style of turning that is undeniably his own, and people are trying to copy it on a "production" level, maybe it makes sense? Malcolm Tibbets work might benefit from a CoA if other people dared to try producing his version of segmenting tubes and ribbons, for example... Im sure between AI and 3-D printers and CNC machines we will all be forced to have CoA's!!🤣

Or if it is turned by someone who is otherwise "famous." Maybe if Kim Kardashian or Shaq or Taylor Swift or Banksy start turning..... 🤑

If not, it's just ego in my opinion.
Click to expand...
I want Taylor Swift in my shop! A great way to lose a finger!!
 
Brent@TurnRobust said:
From a collector standpoint, a signed COA can be very important. I have a piece I got from Binh Pho. He included a COA with several pictures of the piece, a physical description, retail value at the time of acquisition and his signature. His work is expensive enough that it might be copied. The COA ensures that future custodians have an authentic piece. Donna's comments above are another excellent example of why a COA can be important.
Click to expand...
I agree. I toyed with the idea, and actually made up a CoA for one of my pieces. Then I looked at it and sort of had an "I'm not Binh Pho" moment.
But for special pieces some kind of document (and I, personally, wouldn't call it a CoA) might be a benefit in providing a picture or two of the piece (insurance?), along with some additional information. This could include wood ID, finish, care, name of the piece and maybe something about how/why you made it. sale price?
 
Ed Davidson said:
In the collectible toy yo-yo world, a maker's mark or some kind of recognizable branding makes a big difference in valuation. I always include a signed card with the item and a maker's mark on the piece:

View attachment 63422View attachment 63423
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Thanks for your entry on this subject, Ed.....

It's apparent that under some special circumstances, the COA would be appropriate.....(such as an artist like Binh Pho, a tree used in the subject of Robert Frost's poem, or a notable 6,000 year old Irish bog specimen.)

Under other circumstances, including a COA that borders on the "arrogant" (as Tom Gall notes below), it may be questionable.

Tom Gall said:
I think it would help with sales IF the WOOD had some historical significance .... a tree or salvaged wood from a historical building, ship, etc..
If the "C of A" has anything to do with the maker ... hell no! That would be pretty arrogant.
Click to expand...

Just where the "line of demarcation" lies......might be elusive and debatable......and sometimes it can clearly be an intentional misuse of any honorable usage.

-o-
 
A signed receipt with date and a few details serves the same purpose and is a bit less grandiose. My name, customer’s name, date, price, wood(s), finish, description, etc.

I typically provide a detailed receipt for furniture pieces, entry doors, or other big-ticket items. Also for any level of repair and restoration on antiques.

For small turnings, not so much. I’d be happy to give documentation, but I’ve never been asked for it except when the customer is another business.
 
Richard Coers said:
You are incredibly optimistic. I had a bowl I sold for $250 show up on Ebay. It didn't get a single bid on the $65 starting offer. It's proven I won't need a CoA
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I sold this new yo-yo back around 2000 for $60. It re-sold used/2nd hand on eBay 3 years ago (not by me) for $700. On the other hand, kids these days are paying 500 bucks or more for mass produced Asian made aluminum yo-yos. It's just impossible to figure out American consumers.
 

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Like it or not, we're in a time when almost any turning can be duplicated by scanning and automatic machining. Having a COA might be beneficial to buyers in the future if they value the artist's craftsmanship in the work.

Of course, it's long been acceptable in the art world to have others make art from the artist's design.

I visited a small Seattle glass blowing studio to see an extreme example of mass produced art. Along one 20 foot wall were floor to celling shelves all full of what looked like identical pieces. The shop guy said he was a former glass blower in Dale Chihuly's studio.. As explained, Chihuly funded these small satellite studios for promising artists as long as they blew 5 days a week for Chihuly using Chihuly designs (outside of the 40 hours a week for Chihuly they could blow for themselves) . At some point all the glass was evaluated and the best pieces got a Chihuly signature. Those pieces were sold at a premium with the signature being a COA. The remaining lesser pieces were sold as "studio" glass wiht no COA..
 
odie said:
I had not heard of giving out certificates of authenticity before. This turner offers it with his bowls for online sales. Probably not cool to mention by name, but he is a well known turner.

quote:
"This bowl measures 8.75" at its widest diameter and 1.75" tall at its highest point. The bowl is signed, numbered, and includes a signed “CERTIFICATE OF AUTHENTICITY."

Personally, I feel signing and numbering is mandatory, because it identifies the artist, and one specific work from that artist.

So.....what's the thought from the AAW gallery about offering "certificates of authenticity".....????? Will it help sales?

-o-
Click to expand...
Maybe he/she had an issue with being copied. But other than that its seems a bit over the top
 
Rusty Nesmith said:
You are incredibly optimistic. I had a bowl I sold for $250 show up on Ebay. It didn't get a single bid on the $65 starting offer. It's proven I won't need a CoA
Click to expand...
If you read my post carefully and with understanding, you should notice the words maybe (used twice) and might (used once).
There’s nothing in my statement that is optimistic much less “incredibly optimistic”
And besides none of us have any idea what an object will be worth in 100 or more future.
 
Timothy White said:
If you read my post carefully and with understanding, you should notice the words maybe (used twice) and might (used once).
There’s nothing in my statement that is optimistic much less “incredibly optimistic”
And besides none of us have any idea what an object will be worth in 100 or more future.
Click to expand...
If you read my post carefully you will see that you miss quoted me. That is Richard’s post that you put my name on.
 
Wild stuff! Timothy must’ve had a string of quotes and deleted Richard’s name (and Rusty’s quote), but kept Richard’s quote.
 
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