Using CA-Thin, has anyone successfully threaded wood using hand thread chasing tools and non conventional wood types like cherry, maple, oak, and pine at 16 TPI? I have seen write-ups claiming that it was easily doable and that it works ok. Specifically, will pine work?
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Chasing Threads in Non Conventional Wood Types
- Thread starter Lewis Elliott
- Start date
I have done it in hard maple and stabilized cherry burl. Doubt it will be easy if not impossible to get good threads in any of the rest. Lately I have been pouring left over resin when I cast into round silicone molds and using that to make inserts to chase the threads in.
White oak maybe, but definitely not red oak. And pine would be impossible because of the soft and hard growth. If you use CA, you would have to coat the threads after every cut. It doesn't soak in that far.
I was taught hand threading by Mike Mahoney and due to the fact that the wood available for good results was limited more to the exotic side with hard Maple being one of the only local woods that even stood a chance of working I quickly sold the hand chasers and bought a threading jig. I can now thread up to and including pine. Threading pine does work but I think with a little repeated use the threads will fail.
I did it on hickory, but used ca glue applied every other cut. I'm just learning this so I've had mixed results. Going to try hard maple next time I do it. This is definitely a long learning curve.
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I’ve chased threads in dogwood and holly.
As you know the threads are cut through the long grain. Each thread is made up of smaller lengths of fibers.
These break off with the thread chasing. CA can reduce and sometimes prevent the breakage but ragged broken threads are the usual result.
As @Bill Blasic said a rotary cutter will produce better results than scraping.
As you know the threads are cut through the long grain. Each thread is made up of smaller lengths of fibers.
These break off with the thread chasing. CA can reduce and sometimes prevent the breakage but ragged broken threads are the usual result.
As @Bill Blasic said a rotary cutter will produce better results than scraping.
Thanks for the clear causation explanation. Very helpful.
I’m wondering if anybody has tried turning threads in hophornbeam, also known as American ironwood. It seems pretty hard, at least compared to other woods we can get in the upper Midwest.
I have done it using a tap and die set made in Germany and I have also copied the tap design to make 3/8"-11, 1/2"-8 and a few other sizes.
This shows some of the sizes that I have and the products that can be made with the male screws all made with American hornbeam. The German made set is in the right background marked as 1 1/4" and 5 TPI and is displayed by a large hand screw with that thread. The left background is a 3/4"-6 thread cut with a hand made die block ( I had to remake the die block because the thread in it wore out) purchased many years ago from an old cabinet makers estate. The miniature hand screw made entirely of American hornbeam uses a 3/8"-11 thread that I had made a tap for. The 1/2"-8 tap was made to match a drawer knob for an antique dresser. The male threads that didn't have a die were cut using a 60 degree dovetail mill on a router set at a 30 degree angle to the axis of my metal lathe.
I've had some success with apple, and good success with cotoneaster
Here in the UK there is limited availability of suitable species as I rapidly discovered. Even with CA glue the tips of the threads failed on oak cherry and most species . This was 16 tpi,I suspect coarser threads might be easier
However the difference between scraping at 300 rpm and the cutter at 3k rpm cutting at a singlepoint is significant. I persevered for a while with hand chasing but then bought a jig
However the difference between scraping at 300 rpm and the cutter at 3k rpm cutting at a singlepoint is significant. I persevered for a while with hand chasing but then bought a jig
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
I've had lousy success with softer words no matter how much CA I use. Simply isn't worth the hassle. I bought the Baxter threader and picked up an early version of the chefwarekits threader. Both let you cut threads in very soft woods.
With a little creativity you can cut threads in almost any wood. There's no law thats says you have to make 60 degree threads. In difficult woods the sharp crests of 60 degree threads are a problem. Using a 90 degree cutter in a jig with a wider flat on the thread crests helps. A bottle thread like used in condiment jars in your refrigerator is another style that's the ultimate IMO. Use the forum's search function for "bottle threads", I posted some in the past.
When our kids were young I made nut and bolt toys on a crude threading jig using a 4 tpi shaft from an old car screw jack. I don't like fine pitch threads. I prefer a box with a single turn to remove a lid. Coarse thread pitches allow for more clearance to account for possible distortion between the mating threads.
When our kids were young I made nut and bolt toys on a crude threading jig using a 4 tpi shaft from an old car screw jack. I don't like fine pitch threads. I prefer a box with a single turn to remove a lid. Coarse thread pitches allow for more clearance to account for possible distortion between the mating threads.
A couple more points about threading with jigs.....
Looking at Youtube videos a good portion of the demonstrators are not using a climb cut for their internal threads. Why....., I don't know. A climb cut is far superior in eliminating tear out.
Another issue is the cutters many are using are metal working cutters without the proper top rake for clean cutting wood. They have neutral rake which isn't so good in wood. They can be modified with a positive rake for wood cutting though.
Looking at Youtube videos a good portion of the demonstrators are not using a climb cut for their internal threads. Why....., I don't know. A climb cut is far superior in eliminating tear out.
Another issue is the cutters many are using are metal working cutters without the proper top rake for clean cutting wood. They have neutral rake which isn't so good in wood. They can be modified with a positive rake for wood cutting though.
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
Can you describe climb cutting and how we might do it. Where would you buy a cutter with the proper rake.
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Climb cut refers to direction of the cutter rotation in relation to feeding the stock into it
- Lets say on a round cutter rotating counter-clockwise (like most router bits might when mounted in a router table) then you'll be feeding your stock normally into and against the rotation (so if you let go of the stock, it'd kick back at you a little but then the already cut part isn't touching cutter) - whereas a climb cut is fed on the opposite side (cutter will "self-feed" if you let it) so you are feeding stock in the same direction as the cutter bit is travelling - On a router table that typically would be feeding stock between bit and fence - if you don't have rock solid reliable control of the stock and its feed rate, the router bit will grab the piece and shoot it out the far end in the blink of an eye (Ask me how I know LOL! Got a hole in my 1/4" OSB wall to show for it.. back when I didn't know any better and didn't consider feed direction up to that point... )
So, a climb cut for a threading jig would generally mean the spinning cutting bit is spinning in the same direction that the wood is turning (and I assume meaning the wood is well controlled for feed rate)
Excellent explanation! May I add that when cutting threads with a Klien style jig or as I do with a router mounted to the cross slide of my metal lathe the depth of the cut relative to the mass of the piece being threaded is very small, therefore the risk of kick back is almost none existent.
Here is a little chart showing Pitch and Depth of Cut
8 Pitch = .070” Depth of Cut
10 Pitch = .056” Depth of Cut
12 Pitch = .046” Depth of Cut
14 Pitch = .040” Depth of Cut
16 Pitch = .035” Depth of Cut
18 Pitch = .031” Depth of Cut
20 Pitch = .028” Depth of Cut
24 Pitch = .023” Depth of Cut
As Don stated above the depth of cut is so small that kick back is non-existent. These depths are on a side and myself I take them in two cuts.
8 Pitch = .070” Depth of Cut
10 Pitch = .056” Depth of Cut
12 Pitch = .046” Depth of Cut
14 Pitch = .040” Depth of Cut
16 Pitch = .035” Depth of Cut
18 Pitch = .031” Depth of Cut
20 Pitch = .028” Depth of Cut
24 Pitch = .023” Depth of Cut
As Don stated above the depth of cut is so small that kick back is non-existent. These depths are on a side and myself I take them in two cuts.
Basically what climb cutting means in using a threading jig for internal threads is the cutting starts at the bottom of the opening and you thread from the inside out. The workpiece is turned in the opposite to usual direction, think of the rotation as unscrewing a lid from a box. Interesting to note virtually everybody cuts their external threads with a climb cut without realizing they're doing it.
Climb cutting generally gives a better finish than conventional cutting in wood because the wood fibers are pushed into the body of the workpiece rather than being torn away from the workpiece as the fibers are severed. There are reasons why cutters stay sharp longer with climb cutting, but that can be a little more difficult to explain so I won't try now.
According to the AAW's (narrow) definition of woodturning jig cutting of threads is not woodturning because the tool is not hand held. Hand chasing of threads fits the AAW definition of woodturning. For the absolute woodturning purists your work is not totally woodturning if you use a threading jig.
Climb cutting generally gives a better finish than conventional cutting in wood because the wood fibers are pushed into the body of the workpiece rather than being torn away from the workpiece as the fibers are severed. There are reasons why cutters stay sharp longer with climb cutting, but that can be a little more difficult to explain so I won't try now.
According to the AAW's (narrow) definition of woodturning jig cutting of threads is not woodturning because the tool is not hand held. Hand chasing of threads fits the AAW definition of woodturning. For the absolute woodturning purists your work is not totally woodturning if you use a threading jig.
Here's a crude sketch of a 6 flute thread cutter. This is a common metal cutting type cutter. Several threading jig makers supplied these with their jigs because they're readily available. Looking at the sketch the top tooth has a face aligned with the center of the cutter. That would be a neutral rake more suitable for metal. Clockwise, the second tooth is shown with a positive rake since the cutting face is not aligned with the cutter center. That's a positive rake for wood cutting. Look at a wood cutting blade for your table saw, the teeth all have a positive rake for free cutting.
I don't know where to buy thread cutters with positive rake teeth. A neutral rake cutter can be re-ground to create the positive rake, to do it accurately it should be done by a tool grinding company. It could be hand ground if you have a steady hand.
The technically inclined will realize that modifying the cutter to a positive rake will slightly alter the 60 degree tooth profile. Not enough to worry about for cutting threads in wood.
It's likely carbide tipped 60 degree wood router bits (if there is such a thing) would have the positive rake teeth.
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
I have two cutters. Pretty sure I can rig up a way to reshape the tooth accurately using my dremel. I will also try cutting the inside threads from the bottom. Should be a fun experiment but I really don't think it will amount to much because I'm getting clean threads now.
Ronald Kane starts his cuts at the bottom of the piece he is threading, not at the top. He does have it on video.
robo hippy
robo hippy
john,
If you aren't having problems now any improvement may not be noticeable.
An interesting experiment might be to try climb versus conventional cutting in a difficult soft wood. No guarantee it'll be perfect, but for sure the climb cut will be better.
I've shown some odd shapes that were CNC climb cut that had an almost polished/burnished surface. There's absolutely no question a climb cut gives the best surface.
I understand the point about wood vs metal and saw blade rake, but aren't most router bits made with a neutral rake?
In my experience Craftsman and other less-than-top brands are neutral rake in profile bits. Straight bits in any brand are positive rake. The high end brands in profile bits are usually always positive rake. In post number 20 I made a slight mention of profile distortion related to positive rakes, a fairly complicated issue requiring special or CNC grinding to accomplish.
The best explanation I've seen was in an old Delta publication "Getting the Most Out of Your Shaper". It covered how to compensate for profile distortion when hand grinding custom shaper cutter profiles.
Delta had a whole series of "Getting the Most Out of Your......" books. Long ago out of print, still available from used book sellers. Great reference books covering creative ways to use your woodworking machines. Tool makers today are too paranoid about liability issues in our currently litigious society to even suggest creative ways to use machinery.
Interesting! I have the Hope Woodturning Threading jig (I’m in the uk). The video / instructions show the thread being cut from the top/ outer end. The cutter is rotating counter clockwise whilst the work is advanced turning clockwise. I’m still on the learning curve so following the instructions! Also I’m using African Blackwood and Boxwood so “suitable “ species. Experimentation could follow when I’m more “at home” with the jig!
The 2 flute bit shown was hand made from a 1/4" shank key hole router bit with a major diameter of 1/2". The shank between the flutes and the 1/4" mounting area was turned down to about 3/16" making it possible to cut an 8TPI thread. The walnut piece being threaded at 1.5-11 with a climb cut had a knot that you can see to be cleanly cut without any tearout or chipping around the voids. The thread was later cut down to 2 threads.
The photo above has the finial lid mounted in a threaded fixture for finish turning and with the first application of CA.
Hello! I think that when we are stocked with premium threading woods we avoid woods that can be troublesome. In my personal experience( aprox 20 years chasing by hand) you can cope with less denser woods( being a very hard hardwood does not mean it is a good threading wood), you just have to be more careful and develop different techniques in order to get the best thread possible. Some USA natives like Lignum Vitae( Florida, Texas), Desert Ironwood and Texas Ebony are excellent,also the harder mesquites, but some less dense like Cottoneaster and Osage Orange can take a very good thread. Sometimes you find a tree that grew slower than its peers with tighter grain and it is a good oportunity to try your chasers in it.
I think that chasing threads by hand takes a lot of practice and patience to master and the fear of ruining a valuable piece of timber does not help. Threading jigs take the fun out of it but are great if you do not want to invest time in learning hand chasing ( and you will have good results from the very beggining)
I think that chasing threads by hand takes a lot of practice and patience to master and the fear of ruining a valuable piece of timber does not help. Threading jigs take the fun out of it but are great if you do not want to invest time in learning hand chasing ( and you will have good results from the very beggining)
Hi Mauricio,
Can you give a few hints on your methods? I'm curious about how you do it.
Can you give a few hints on your methods? I'm curious about how you do it.
Hello Doug,You can Watch my demo recorded at the Louisville symposium, I think you will find it useful. Regards
Slightly as an aside how wood one describe the characteristics of a good threading species? Hard(ish) -yes but after that? My (limited) experience suggests the texture is almost oily or resinous? My experience (Boxwood and African Blackwood) shows the shavings and sawdust tend to stick together slightly like moist coffee grounds or breadcrumbs!!
Have you ever cut threads successfully in wood like: pine, oak, cherry, maple, and walnut using the Baxter jig?
Lewis, I have successfully cut threads in all those woods and more. All cut just using the wood nothing else like CA glue. Just to let you know threads in Pine would not be my choice for a piece that would be used every day, just not hard enough. Threads in some exotics I don't think you could ruin with a hammer but our woods you mention work just fine if cut when dry.
Thanks Bill. I appreciate your expertise in this. What thread pitch have you found gives the better results? Do you get good results in those wood types with 16 TPI.
I have cut threads in a lot of different woods, and the threading jigs make it possible to cut them in just about anything. I lubricate with some walnut oil and an electric tooth brush head, which has magnets on it so it sticks to the lathe. Osage is difficult because it does like to chip out. Baxter does make a carbide thread cutter, which I do not have. I like the 16 tpi, mostly because you only need to adjust the shoulder 1/16 inch to line up/time the threads.
robo hippy
robo hippy
Thanks Robo!
My most used thread is the 16 tpi, currently the one that has been used on every different wood tried. I have heads of 8 tpi, 10 tpi and 24 tpi. I have the small carbide cutter and plan to use it and the 24 tpi to thread African Blackwood. The 8 tpi has been used to make stuff for the head stocks and the 10 tpi to make stuff for the live centers.