Design Tips for Wood Turners - Can we become better at design?

[Mark Wardle]

A lot of wood turning conversation seems to me to be taken up with gear, timber types, grain patterns, shop layout, safety and the like. I might be wrong, but I think I see and hear not so much about the creative process and how people develop ideas or designs. I'd like to know a bit more about how turners develop their designs and what inspires them. I've picked up a few tips over the years and recently I've begun to make a series of videos in order to pass on my experience in the hope that it might inspire others to become better designers. My other hope is that also other turners can pass their tips and experience on to me! I've recently completed the third video in the series. I'll paste the links to all three videos I've mad so far here. I'm planning on more but they take time to make! Your thoughts are appreciated...

View: https://youtu.be/OywWXTvwbbM

View: https://youtu.be/yiuB-zwAfyE

View: https://youtu.be/amxIdc9mwyQ

 

[Tim Starliper]

I will take a look at these later. Frequently, I only have a rough idea of a shape in mind when I put a hunk of wood on the lathe. For example. a bowl blank cut from half a log I would decide if I want a natural edge or not and a rough idea of the final shape. For pens, there is a bit less leeway in shape/design beyond choosing the blank for a particular kit plating. Some have more opportunity to be creative than others. I usually just go with what I feel - and sometimes that changes during the turning (sometimes even of my own will and not due to a spontaneous unplanned design alteration opportunity presenting itself. Sometimes.) If I am turning something that has a specific purpose as part of a larger project, then I will spend time sketching and getting a rough idea of dimensions and proportions (such as when I made the spinning stand to display keyrings and such on at craft shows). Most of the time, though, it is tool to wood and let's see what comes out of this.

 

[Mike Johnson]

It is easy to copy a design or pattern that everyone has turned and seen, the more advanced turners develop a style of their own that turns into a trademark that people recognize when they see it. You want a product that stands out from the rest of the herd, pick an item and master the design and finish better than anyone else and you will carve out a market for yourself. Some turners that master Ornaments will end up selling to the same customers year after year wanting a copy of each new year's design.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

The problem with a lot of woodturners is that they probably have an idea of what they want to do, but do not have the skills to see it thru. In other words, they cannot yet tell the tool what to do. They are happy surviving the day. Hence the famous dog dish. Of course, everyone knows and aims for a perfect design piece, they just can't do it. You are right about design being a taboo subject, especially on social media. When they post is just to get likes, you can't C&C or you will be attacked by a mob. The design comes with experience and perhaps with some help from Richard Raffan's books on design for woodturners. C&C is an art in itself. I have judged lots of Calabash challenges, I have to tread carefully. Trying to tell people their work could be improved by this or that is not always welcome. I have learned that some people do not care, they are happy with what they are doing, and that is just fine. I only teach design to students in my studio. Trying to preach on Youtube can be seen as arrogant. I took my video on design down years ago. I have seen new turners even go after Richard Raffan when he has given advice!! Turners that want to learn good design, to keep improving their skills are here on this forum. We have been talking about making a sub-forum where you can post just to get C&C. @Bill Boehme maybe we could give it a try.

 

[Jon Minerich]

Mark,

Thank you for producing these videos. I find them very helpful and very well done. After reading all the great tips on Odie’s thread on “Seeing the Curve” these videos helped me clarify my thoughts. The practical “how to’s” were especially helpful. I agree with Emiliano about this forum. I have learned more about woodturning on this forum than watching numerous YouTube videos.

Mark again let me thank you for helping me evolve with my woodturning skills. Also, many thanks to all those who contribute and make this forum a goldmine of info for beginners.

Jon

 

[Russ Braun]

Mark,
Your videos are terrific and well made. It’s obvious that you have many hours put into your woodturning and design skills; also a great ability to articulate what lessons you’ve learned along the way. It allows you to share what you have learned with the rest of us which makes you a teacher. There are many teachers in the world, much fewer with the hands on skills to truly “know” what they are talking about. Check off all the boxes Mark, you are a gift!!

 

[Mark Wardle]

Mark,

Thank you for producing these videos. I find them very helpful and very well done. After reading all the great tips on Odie’s thread on “Seeing the Curve” these videos helped me clarify my thoughts. The practical “how to’s” were especially helpful. I agree with Emiliano about this forum. I have learned more about woodturning on this forum than watching numerous YouTube videos.

Mark again let me thank you for helping me evolve with my woodturning skills. Also, many thanks to all those who contribute and make this forum a goldmine of info for beginners.

Jon

Thanks Jon it's nice to get that sort of feedback.

 

[Mark Wardle]

Mark,
Your videos are terrific and well made. It’s obvious that you have many hours put into your woodturning and design skills; also a great ability to articulate what lessons you’ve learned along the way. It allows you to share what you have learned with the rest of us which makes you a teacher. There are many teachers in the world, much fewer with the hands on skills to truly “know” what they are talking about. Check off all the boxes Mark, you are a gift!!

Thanks Russ, I appreciate that coming from someone who clearly has great skills in both turning and design.

 

[Brian Gustin]

Agree with the rest, Mark. Finally got around to having a peek, and your first vid on how to lay out the curve on graphing paper (getting proportions) was an eye-opener for me.. I actually rather suck at drawing freehand - I can't even draw a circle that looks properly round (even when I tried practicing every day in high school and doodling in class, etc I always had to use a coin in my pocket to get a good circle) but creating a "connect the dots" layout - Brilliant! I better go out and get myself a book of graph paper... now that I have a clue how to try and draw forms I am able to "imagine" but unable to "express"

 

[R Henrickson]

[snip] I better go out and get myself a book of graph paper... now that I have a clue how to try and draw forms I am able to "imagine" but unable to "express"

Save your money. There are any number of sites where you can design your own graph paper -- set the intervals, thickness/darkness of lines, etc, then save it as a pdf for future use. Print your own.

I use incompetech.com -- they have templates to create several dozen different types of graph paper (square, triangle, polar, just to name three). But there are numerous other sites.

 

[Tim Starliper]

The problem with a lot of woodturners is that they probably have an idea of what they want to do, but do not have the skills to see it thru. In other words, they cannot yet tell the tool what to do. They are happy surviving the day. Hence the famous dog dish. Of course, everyone knows and aims for a perfect design piece, they just can't do it. You are right about design being a taboo subject, especially on social media. When they post is just to get likes, you can't C&C or you will be attacked by a mob. The design comes with experience and perhaps with some help from Richard Raffan's books on design for woodturners. C&C is an art in itself. I have judged lots of Calabash challenges, I have to tread carefully. Trying to tell people their work could be improved by this or that is not always welcome. I have learned that some people do not care, they are happy with what they are doing, and that is just fine. I only teach design to students in my studio. Trying to preach on Youtube can be seen as arrogant. I took my video on design down years ago. I have seen new turners even go after Richard Raffan when he has given advice!! Turners that want to learn good design, to keep improving their skills are here on this forum. We have been talking about making a sub-forum where you can post just to get C&C. @Bill Boehme maybe we could give it a try.

I encounter this when I am turning some times. I know what I want, but not always sure of how to get from point A to point B. Could be lack of skill, lack of proper tooling, all of the above, none of the above. That is when I would likely hit up Google and see what I can find about what I want to do. It even works occasionally!

You hit the nail on the head about social media - in general, those that post want people to like what they posted, and if you don't like it just don't look at it. I will admit to having been there, and probably will be again at some point. I think all of us have probably been there at least once - not wanting to take that hit to the ego. Having said that, making available how-to information for perfecting design is not a bad thing. Offering the ability to have a piece critiqued is also a good thing. Forcing either of those on someone that just wants the thumbs up on their piece will pretty much always not be received well. The idea of a forum where the critique is a norm is a great idea in my opinion - as long as it is made abundantly clear that anything posted in that area is subject to critique and the poster does not have the right to be butt-hurt if people think his/her 'masterpiece' falls short.

I think I recall you judging a Calabash challenge for my club back when Troy was still president. I did not participate in that one, but liked the pieces presented. We, like most clubs I would think, have a number of talented turners that have their own specialties.

 

[Richard Moore]

Thanks for doing the videos. I do a wide verity of woodworking. I’m fortunate that I was raised around artists and craftsmen in many trades. So many of the concepts a lot folks find foreign I take for granted. My ears perk up when folks talk of design and how to improve it. Learning to use the tools is really the easy part. But adding the tools of proportion and form to the tool kit will add to the enjoyment of this hobby. Your approach of continuing the hobby through drawing and exploring your imagination helps train the eye to forms that could make good or even great art. So I’m typing this and dinner has arrived so see ya!

 

[Dave Fritz]

My favorite life lesson: Playing in a Dixieland band the clarinet player took a chorus on Muskrat Ramble. Since I was the drummer he could talk to me, he turned and said, " I don't understand, I blow in this thing like Benny Goodman and it comes out like Harley *%$#." I could say, "I don't understand, I turn like Richard Raffin and it comes out like Dave Fritz." To your point Emiliano.

 

[Brian Nowak-Thompson]

Mark,
you did a remarkable job teaching me about the parabola in the first video. It seems you have a real knack for visual communication--the repeated use of the catenary chain curve was very effective! thanks for taking the time to produce these.

 

[Lennart Delin]

We have been talking about making a sub-forum where you can post just to get C&C. maybe we could give it a try.

I have never understood why people post their work if they don´t want to know what other people think of it.

 

[hughie]

Tool design in terms of angles 'n edges etc, I think its been well hammered out over the decades. The material or steel has seen many changes and I dare say this will continue. One thing that did surprise me when got I into turning was why there were no carbide tools, coming from a engineering back ground where they have been common place from before the 70's. Ok this has largely been addressed over the last 10-15 years or so.
Critiques etc. I tend to be positive in general comments refrain from the negative unless someone asks, even then I will finish on what I like about it so they cant something positive away with them. Shape and form well thats pretty much up to the maker, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and in some circles a highly contentious issue due to subject nature of the process.

 

[Mark Jundanian]

@Mark Wardle , sorry that I'm just getting to this thread, but I echo the others. Very well done videos. I'll make a particular note that the background music is quiet and subtle (although I am one of those who doesn't see the purpose to background music in the first place). I thought your graphical solutions to drawing parabolas were simple, elegant and very useful. I'm going to try them out on some graph paper in a moment, just to get more familiar. In one of the videos you mentioned you had another video with more instruction on how to draw. Care to link? I do a lot of two dimensional cross-sections when planning a piece, but have to use 3D software to get a 3D rendering. That can be a lot of work just to find out what's wrong with an idea.

 

[Mark Wardle]

Mark,
you did a remarkable job teaching me about the parabola in the first video. It seems you have a real knack for visual communication--the repeated use of the catenary chain curve was very effective! thanks for taking the time to produce these.

Thanks Brian. Time to download some graph paper and start doodling

 

[Mark Wardle]

@Mark Wardle , sorry that I'm just getting to this thread, but I echo the others. Very well done videos. I'll make a particular note that the background music is quiet and subtle (although I am one of those who doesn't see the purpose to background music in the first place). I thought your graphical solutions to drawing parabolas were simple, elegant and very useful. I'm going to try them out on some graph paper in a moment, just to get more familiar. In one of the videos you mentioned you had another video with more instruction on how to draw. Care to link? I do a lot of two dimensional cross-sections when planning a piece, but have to use 3D software to get a 3D rendering. That can be a lot of work just to find out what's wrong with an idea.

Hi Mark - Thanks for the feedback. About the music - I am always very cognisant that background music can destroy a good video so I only tend to use it very sparingly. As a part time video producer, I always learnt that the music in a movie was supposed to subliminally tell the viewer how to feel about the scene. So I guess I'm trying for an upbeat vibe in my woodturning videos! Coz woodturning is fun!
About the drawing video - it's on the way. I have this series sort of planned out, but it does take a long time and a lot of focus to produce them, so stand by. I always seem to have several projects on the go at any one time. But it's in the planning stage and it will get done soon.
Meantime just get some graph paper out and start doodling!
Thanks again for your comments.

 

[odie]

Hi Mark...

I watched the first video when you started this thread, and watched the other two this morning. I think you have some information that will be useful to many others.....they are worthwhile, and I'm glad I came back to watch all of them, just so I have a better understanding of your perspective.

We live in different worlds, though. My emphasis is "the process" I've developed from hands on lathe experience. I design my bowls according to a variety of shapes that have evolved, and can be done with precision and repeatable. I can mix and match basic shapes, and can come up with unique shapes, or shapes that have shown to be popular among those who purchase my bowls. This could get a little boring, reproducing the same forms over and over again, but other observers don't see it quite that way. To them, it is unique.....but, to me, it's something I've done a thousand times before. This is one of the reasons why "the process" is what holds my attention, rather than any one bowl of the moment!

Hope this makes some sense. In the end result, I think you and I do overlap in our goals, just that the methods we use to achieve those goals seem to differ somewhat.

Your videos are recommended to other members of this forum.

-----odie-----

 

[Tim Starliper]

I always seem to have several projects on the go at any one time.

Never heard of such a thing! (and if you believe that one, have I got a deal for you!)

 

[stu senator]

I have been a mechanical design engineer for many years and designed industrial machines, research equipment and consumer products.

The first two only required covers for safety or cleanness. Consumer products required "pretty" housings. The design process was the same for all products, cost, machines available to manufacture the item and environment it has to live in.

If one looks at what was available in various time periods to manufacture the item. Now we have CAD that enables us to design all sorts of swoopy curves that blend perfectly. This is the cover, look inside a product like a car door, it is a structure designed to take a load, hold lock and window mechanisms and a pretty outside and inside cover.

In a lathe an item must be a shape that can only be a surface of revolution. The tools are what we can afford and the techniques we have developed with practice. The design is also determined by each individual piece of wood , it's coloration and grain pattern and the shape is determined by the maker and his or her artistic ability, skill and knowledge.

Knowledge of basic design concepts is only good if is understood and put in practice. It is like practice in tool choice and handling.

Stu

 

[David Wrate]

As a new turner, I'm grateful for every opportunity to learn from all. Thanks for the videso @Mark Wardle

 

[Mark Wardle]

As a new turner, I'm grateful for every opportunity to learn from all. Thanks for the videso @Mark Wardle

Thanks David, I hope you found them helpful.

 

[Robert Santore]

As a new turner, a mathy-guy, and someone that tends to do a lot of drawings before committing, I enjoyed these vids a lot. I also thought the designs were well done. Thanks for posting!

 

[Mark Wardle]

As a new turner, a mathy-guy, and someone that tends to do a lot of drawings before committing, I enjoyed these vids a lot. I also thought the designs were well done. Thanks for posting!

Thanks Robert - Great to get your feedback

 

[Steven Forrest]

Just watched your three videos - excellent. I wish I had seen these a decade or two ago.

 

[Mark Wardle]

Just watched your three videos - excellent. I wish I had seen these a decade or two ago.

Thanks Steven - great to hear you got something out of them.

 

[Guy Pepin]

Had a look at all three videos. Great stuff - thanks for the guidance!

I've been dabbling with carving recently with the hope of incorporating into a growing passion for turning. That lead me to wondering about elements of design and turning what I see, either in my minds eye or in a photograph to a representation which is achievable and pleasing to the eye. I don't even have the vocabulary.
I've taken out a variety of books from our (small) local library, one is "500 Bowls: Contemporary Explorations of a Timeless Design"

Amazon.com

It's about ceramic bowls, but I still find looking at the many (five hundred it turns out) to provide many ideas.
Another tack I took was to speak with a friend who specializes in water color painting and that has given me a little more insight.
And another resource I use for many geometric and classical forms is "The Grammar of Ornament: A Visual Reference of Form and Colour in Architecture and the Decorative Arts"

The Grammar of Ornament: A Visual Reference of Form and Colour in Architecture and the Decorative Arts - The complete and unabridged full-color edition: Jones, Owen: 9780691172064: Books - Amazon.ca

The Grammar of Ornament: A Visual Reference of Form and Colour in Architecture and the Decorative Arts - The complete and unabridged full-color edition: Jones, Owen: 9780691172064: Books - Amazon.ca

www.amazon.ca

Appreciate the discussion.

 

[Tom Gall]

Had a look at all three videos. Great stuff - thanks for the guidance!

I've been dabbling with carving recently with the hope of incorporating into a growing passion for turning. That lead me to wondering about elements of design and turning what I see, either in my minds eye or in a photograph to a representation which is achievable and pleasing to the eye. I don't even have the vocabulary.
I've taken out a variety of books from our (small) local library, one is "500 Bowls: Contemporary Explorations of a Timeless Design"

Amazon.com

It's about ceramic bowls, but I still find looking at the many (five hundred it turns out) to provide many ideas.
Another tack I took was to speak with a friend who specializes in water color painting and that has given me a little more insight.
And another resource I use for many geometric and classical forms is "The Grammar of Ornament: A Visual Reference of Form and Colour in Architecture and the Decorative Arts"

The Grammar of Ornament: A Visual Reference of Form and Colour in Architecture and the Decorative Arts - The complete and unabridged full-color edition: Jones, Owen: 9780691172064: Books - Amazon.ca

The Grammar of Ornament: A Visual Reference of Form and Colour in Architecture and the Decorative Arts - The complete and unabridged full-color edition: Jones, Owen: 9780691172064: Books - Amazon.ca

www.amazon.ca

Appreciate the discussion.

In case you aren't aware there is another - "500 Wood Bowls" by the same publisher.

500 Wood Bowls: Bold & Original Designs Blending Tradition & Innovation (500 Series): Duncan-Aimone, Katherine, Leier, Ray, Peters, Jan, Wallace, Kevin: 0661741004834: Amazon.com: Books

500 Wood Bowls: Bold & Original Designs Blending Tradition & Innovation (500 Series) [Duncan-Aimone, Katherine, Leier, Ray, Peters, Jan, Wallace, Kevin] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. 500 Wood Bowls: Bold & Original Designs Blending Tradition & Innovation (500 Series)

www.amazon.com

 

[Guy Pepin]

In case you aren't aware there is another - "500 Wood Bowls" by the same publisher.

500 Wood Bowls: Bold & Original Designs Blending Tradition & Innovation (500 Series): Duncan-Aimone, Katherine, Leier, Ray, Peters, Jan, Wallace, Kevin: 0661741004834: Amazon.com: Books

500 Wood Bowls: Bold & Original Designs Blending Tradition & Innovation (500 Series) [Duncan-Aimone, Katherine, Leier, Ray, Peters, Jan, Wallace, Kevin] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. 500 Wood Bowls: Bold & Original Designs Blending Tradition & Innovation (500 Series)

www.amazon.com

I wasn't aware, though not surprised. I'll see if it is available through our inter-library loan system. Worth purchasing?

 

[Tom Gall]

I wasn't aware, though not surprised. I'll see if it is available through our inter-library loan system. Worth purchasing?

I think so. Bought when it first came out. Looked through about 50 bowls and put it aside until later .... later never came! Took it off the shelf yesterday for a quick skim ... now on my desk so I will see it every day. Some amazing pieces in there ... way ahead of the curve for back then.

 

[Michael Anderson]

I wasn't aware, though not surprised. I'll see if it is available through our inter-library loan system. Worth purchasing?

Just bought a copy of this for $20 including shipping. Seems worth the price, for sure.

 

[Peter Jacobson]

Mark,
Thanks for producing the videos and posting them here. I think there is a strong demand for instruction in design for turners. I believe that those who say they let the wood decide the design (or some variation of that) are relying on luck as to whether the piece is aesthetically successful or not. I for one would like to be more deliberate... but it is still a challenge.