If you use DNA to dry or just to kill bugs ,or if you microwave to do that. Has anyone ever had a little critter show up later after the piece was finished ? after removeing several critters and applying epoxy. and returning - I thought Iwould microwave to be sure they were dead! after 1 min on high I just got the little fellow every excited. Plus if i killed him, he would just be (in the Bowl) sort of speak. Seems these little guys can take alot. and if they are Outta site are they "Outta Mind " forever? Might be pretty bad to give the nice Bowl to "Aunt Ruth" to have her find a critter coming out of it ina couple of months.
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Dna Or microwave Kills Bugs dead?
- Thread starter Kefferpl
- Start date
Bugs
Sometimes I squirt mineral spirits into the bug holes if I haven't yet "finished" the piece. Other wise I put the piece with critters inside, into the freezer for a few days and have never had them show up again. I live in south Florida :cool2: so our bugs aren't used to freezing weather.
Sometimes I squirt mineral spirits into the bug holes if I haven't yet "finished" the piece. Other wise I put the piece with critters inside, into the freezer for a few days and have never had them show up again. I live in south Florida :cool2: so our bugs aren't used to freezing weather.
The freezer will definitely kill any wood boring insect. An hour or so in an oven at 300 or so will definitely do so. I don't know about a microwave or DNA.
Paul,
Any idea what they are? Termites? Beetles? etc? Did they come from holes in the wood or are they coming from a bark inclusion? To identify them you will probably need to know the species of tree. Many beetles feed on just one or a narrow range of woods.
I live in Hawaii, which we all know is incredibly similar in climate and flora and fauna to Pennsylvania. But....for what it is worth, the bugs we deal with here are termites, Formosan mostly, and powder post beetles and powder post termites. Both these critters like dry wood, with 12% moisture levels roughly. We also have a tree termite that wants wetter wood, but it is usually not a problem for turning since our stocks dry out fairly quickly. I think you deal mostly with Eastern Subteranean Termites, and a variety of wood boring beetles depending on the wood species. It is usually the larva of a beetle that is doing the chewing, not the adults.
For the termites and beetles here you usually use a commercial product called Timbor to soak the wood. I don't know how it affects the turning and finishing characteristics though. At least on the commercial lumber I buy that has been soaked in Timbor it leaves a white powder on the surface as it dries. I suspect the powder would keep recurring over time as moisture leaves the wood. And it seems to take a long time to dry. Although it works well I have come to despise it everytime I pick up a soaked 5/8 sheet of plywood. Stuff was heavy enough dry. It is miserable when soaked through with Timbor.
Ortho also makes a product called Ortho-klor for termites and other boring insects, and I think they have another one for boring beetles, but I can't hink of the name off the top of my head. I dislike using these chemicals though, and would be particularly leary of them for anything that will be handled much by the customer, in spite of Ortho's claims to the contrary. No offense to Ortho, I'm just suspicious I guess!
Some of our turners use a product called WoodTurners Choice from a company called CedarShield at Cedarcide.com Originally they used it as a wood stabilizer but they found that it kills powderpost beetles and termites and soaks throughout the wood quickly and does not affect the finishing and turning. Additionally they use it to reduce the drying time of bowl blanks in woods like Koa from the normal 6 months to a year down to 2 weeks (3 days for other woods) The folks who use it swear by it. Supposed to be non toxic. The company has offered to send samples before so you if you were interested you might contact them about that. I use it and like it.
I am afraid I can't address the microwaving issue. Seems like it would work, but it might take a fairly long exposure to get em! DNA may not bother them that much if it doesn't sink in deeply or have a long enough contact with them. If they are boring insects their burrows can be pretty convoluted and also may be partitioned, preventing the DNA from flowing throughout the cavities. Any larvae in the wood may also have a different level of susceptibility to DNA than the adults as well. And of course, you are likely to have larvae hatching out at various times which doesn't help your control efforts.
Hope this helps you a little!
Dave
Any idea what they are? Termites? Beetles? etc? Did they come from holes in the wood or are they coming from a bark inclusion? To identify them you will probably need to know the species of tree. Many beetles feed on just one or a narrow range of woods.
I live in Hawaii, which we all know is incredibly similar in climate and flora and fauna to Pennsylvania. But....for what it is worth, the bugs we deal with here are termites, Formosan mostly, and powder post beetles and powder post termites. Both these critters like dry wood, with 12% moisture levels roughly. We also have a tree termite that wants wetter wood, but it is usually not a problem for turning since our stocks dry out fairly quickly. I think you deal mostly with Eastern Subteranean Termites, and a variety of wood boring beetles depending on the wood species. It is usually the larva of a beetle that is doing the chewing, not the adults.
For the termites and beetles here you usually use a commercial product called Timbor to soak the wood. I don't know how it affects the turning and finishing characteristics though. At least on the commercial lumber I buy that has been soaked in Timbor it leaves a white powder on the surface as it dries. I suspect the powder would keep recurring over time as moisture leaves the wood. And it seems to take a long time to dry. Although it works well I have come to despise it everytime I pick up a soaked 5/8 sheet of plywood. Stuff was heavy enough dry. It is miserable when soaked through with Timbor.
Ortho also makes a product called Ortho-klor for termites and other boring insects, and I think they have another one for boring beetles, but I can't hink of the name off the top of my head. I dislike using these chemicals though, and would be particularly leary of them for anything that will be handled much by the customer, in spite of Ortho's claims to the contrary. No offense to Ortho, I'm just suspicious I guess!
Some of our turners use a product called WoodTurners Choice from a company called CedarShield at Cedarcide.com Originally they used it as a wood stabilizer but they found that it kills powderpost beetles and termites and soaks throughout the wood quickly and does not affect the finishing and turning. Additionally they use it to reduce the drying time of bowl blanks in woods like Koa from the normal 6 months to a year down to 2 weeks (3 days for other woods) The folks who use it swear by it. Supposed to be non toxic. The company has offered to send samples before so you if you were interested you might contact them about that. I use it and like it.
I am afraid I can't address the microwaving issue. Seems like it would work, but it might take a fairly long exposure to get em! DNA may not bother them that much if it doesn't sink in deeply or have a long enough contact with them. If they are boring insects their burrows can be pretty convoluted and also may be partitioned, preventing the DNA from flowing throughout the cavities. Any larvae in the wood may also have a different level of susceptibility to DNA than the adults as well. And of course, you are likely to have larvae hatching out at various times which doesn't help your control efforts.
Hope this helps you a little!
Dave
Microwave
I've used the microwave to kill bugs, but you need to get the wood steaming hot (way too hot to handle) so that you cook the little buggers.
I've used the microwave to kill bugs, but you need to get the wood steaming hot (way too hot to handle) so that you cook the little buggers.
Mmmmmmm.... I hear toasted larvae tastes like walnuts or pecans... 
My wife wanted to kill some bugs in "Spanish Moss" once so we tossed it in the MW (her idea, not mine). After zapping once the bugs were alive and well, zapped again longer and still alive, and kept zapping longer and longer. Finally the moss caught fire the bugs were still running around in the MW. I was laughing but the kids were grossed out that we had a variety of live bugs and flaming moss now in our new MW.
I had a bunch of blanks that showed signs on bugs getting into them so I put them all in a metal trash can along with one of those "bug bombs". Left it for a few days and never saw another critter, and did not have to get the wood wet with insecticide. Long range effects from sniffing wood treated with a bug bomb? Have no idea but since they make it for houses to be safe after 4 hours it can't be too lasting.
Another thing we do here in Florida (locally anway) where we have some very rightous bugs is put them in a metal trash can with a 2.5" vacumn hose attached with a homemade flange, plus a small vent hole that can be covered with duct tape. Put the other end over a truck exhaust (all woodturners have trucks, right?) for a few minutes, then seal the can up for a few days. I guess the carbon monoxide will kill the little suckers. Another guy I know uses CO2 tanks from a bottle gas supply place (made for beer/soda dispensers I think) instead of exhaust.
Bad thing is that no matter what we do when the last human dies off those little critters will be collectively laughing at us. :mad:
I had a bunch of blanks that showed signs on bugs getting into them so I put them all in a metal trash can along with one of those "bug bombs". Left it for a few days and never saw another critter, and did not have to get the wood wet with insecticide. Long range effects from sniffing wood treated with a bug bomb? Have no idea but since they make it for houses to be safe after 4 hours it can't be too lasting.
Another thing we do here in Florida (locally anway) where we have some very rightous bugs is put them in a metal trash can with a 2.5" vacumn hose attached with a homemade flange, plus a small vent hole that can be covered with duct tape. Put the other end over a truck exhaust (all woodturners have trucks, right?) for a few minutes, then seal the can up for a few days. I guess the carbon monoxide will kill the little suckers. Another guy I know uses CO2 tanks from a bottle gas supply place (made for beer/soda dispensers I think) instead of exhaust.
Bad thing is that no matter what we do when the last human dies off those little critters will be collectively laughing at us. :mad:
woodwish said:
My firewood and lumber is in a small barn. This fall I set off a large bug bomb and closed the door. The number of powder-puff beetles on the floor was impressive. I also tossed one under the tarp the logs are stored under, many dead bugs
Put it in a garbage bag, throw in some dry ice, and tie shut. Leave for about a week. Should kill off everything nicely. If not, even your winter bugs can't handle a week in the freezer.
Dietrich
Dietrich
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dkulze said:
Suffocation might take a bit longer than a week, given the ability of the critters to slow their metabolism and overwinter in conditions much more severe than your freezer can provide. Which is why that method gits a jaundiced eye from those in the northern climes who have flung grubs from frozen wood and watched them return sluggishly to action in the warmer shop.
Put the wood out in the open and let the grubs mature, at which point they should abandon the old homestead in favor of greener pastures and brief sensual pleasures.
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As long as we're talking about bugs, I turned some Ash that was so full of grubs that for at least 3 inches below the sap wood there were living chewing critters. What was even more interesting is that there were also a large number of some kind of bee or wasp living in the holes as well. It is my guess that the bees were there feeding on the grubs? Once rough turned, hollowed and soaked in DNA for a few days and they were all dead. I have also turned some black walnut that was cut down over twenty years ago, stored inside, that I've found living grubs in, so were they fresh or in a state of hibernation? As for cold I lived in Fairbanks Alaska for awhile where temps can dip to -50f and -60F for weeks on end and in the spring they all come back to life. It's my belief that you need something to kill them not tease 'em.
I think they were all just drunk and passed out!WODAD said:
"to Live or let die "
What I originally had was a large Ash section (wood auction) cut two 15 " bowl blank as I ruffed them down found tunnels fill of sawdust after 6 months of drying I Returned the bowls to find grubs and a bee or wasp like thing with a black & white striped end. These are a "Roundhead Borers" form what I can tell
I guess I really has two issues one - how to kill critters- two - kill them or not there still in the wood and you don't know if or where or their status. Everyone loves the pieces with the holes. In the future, I believe I won't be doing a bowl which has holes (fill or unfilled ) And the hollow forms will be cleaned out to be sure that critters there gone. Thanks to every one for the input.
What I originally had was a large Ash section (wood auction) cut two 15 " bowl blank as I ruffed them down found tunnels fill of sawdust after 6 months of drying I Returned the bowls to find grubs and a bee or wasp like thing with a black & white striped end. These are a "Roundhead Borers" form what I can tell
I guess I really has two issues one - how to kill critters- two - kill them or not there still in the wood and you don't know if or where or their status. Everyone loves the pieces with the holes. In the future, I believe I won't be doing a bowl which has holes (fill or unfilled ) And the hollow forms will be cleaned out to be sure that critters there gone. Thanks to every one for the input.
Paul, Remember <grin> for it to be a bowl you need at least 1 hole! Otherwise it is called a solid form, or a ball!Kefferpl said:
Dave
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I mean, there's always the tried and true "HSS treatment" method for killing the bugs. Messy but effective.
The dry ice method actually doesn't suffocate them. It poisons them with CO2. The point is to get the CO2 level up near 100%. At that point, the partial pressure differential will suck any oxygen right out of the bugs and kill them. Same thing that almost took out the Appollo 13 astronauts. Not sure if it works with bugs in casings (cocoons, etc) but imagine it does as they still respirate so have exposed spicules.
Dietrich
The dry ice method actually doesn't suffocate them. It poisons them with CO2. The point is to get the CO2 level up near 100%. At that point, the partial pressure differential will suck any oxygen right out of the bugs and kill them. Same thing that almost took out the Appollo 13 astronauts. Not sure if it works with bugs in casings (cocoons, etc) but imagine it does as they still respirate so have exposed spicules.
Dietrich
I've had mixed success with DNA for flathead borers in mesquite. On small pieces it worked well, but for larger pieces where they bored in deep, the DNA just doesn't penetrate deep enough. Thus the HSS/1000 RPM method.
One thing about the microwave, a relative of mine recently tried nuking his freshly turned bowl. Did 1 min, waited, 1 min, waited, one more minute while he went to get the paper & he came back to find it embelished with a nice pyrographic treatment. I have to say, I have done a similar procedure while standing in my kitchen & never seen it happen.
One thing about the microwave, a relative of mine recently tried nuking his freshly turned bowl. Did 1 min, waited, 1 min, waited, one more minute while he went to get the paper & he came back to find it embelished with a nice pyrographic treatment. I have to say, I have done a similar procedure while standing in my kitchen & never seen it happen.
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Microwaves, as they say, heat inside out. Real important not to have really thick mixed with really thin, especially on the second heating. The newly dry and well-insulated spot within the thick is now free to exceed 100C, and might even get to ignition temperature. Free advice. DO NOT USE THE WIFE'S MICROWAVE for any of your work.
D, not up enough on arthropods to know if acidosis will get them before simple suffocation or not. Rather suspect the lack of haemoglobin may make them physiologically different from us. Believe the old-time submariners carried soda lime to absorb the carbon dioxide and keep it below lethal levels, and hopefully high enough to keep the crew functioning mentally.
D, not up enough on arthropods to know if acidosis will get them before simple suffocation or not. Rather suspect the lack of haemoglobin may make them physiologically different from us. Believe the old-time submariners carried soda lime to absorb the carbon dioxide and keep it below lethal levels, and hopefully high enough to keep the crew functioning mentally.
dkulze said:
This is the same idea behind using CO2 bottles from soda dispensers, CO2 fire extinguishers, or those little CO2 bottles made for paint-ball guns. I am not sure what the difference between carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide as far as toxicity is. I have used carbon monoxide as a by product of a combustion engine just because I have available all the time, CO2 takes more work to find. I've had good luck with the truck exhaust method but have never tried CO2 to see the difference.
Short chem lesson. Blood (hemoglobin) works through exchanging CO2 for O2 and vice-versa. The CO2 level in the air is sufficiently low that blood will let it go in exchange for oxygen due to the different partial pressures. When the blood runs up against cells that have alot of CO2, this process is reversed, also due to the different concentrations trying to equalize. Get the CO2 content up high enough (12-13%?) and your blood won't let go of it no matter how much oxygen is present cause the partial pressure is too high for the exchange to happen.
Now CO, on the other hand, is a bit more of a bugger. It holds on to hemoglobin much more strongly than CO2 (higher affinity). Thus, a really low concentration will displace all the oxygen in your blood and then won't let go. This is why it's so dangerous, since it only takes a little to kill ya.
And, Mike, I'm pretty sure that you're still looking at a hemoglobin based system with arthropods. The major difference is a spicule and passive absorbtion system vs. lungs. That's why bugs can't get that big. Law of inverse proportions (the larger the volume, the lower the percentage of surface area).
Now whether you can get enough CO2 deep into the wood to cause acidosis and death is another question. My guess would be that a sufficient concentration of CO2 would suck itself right down into the wood as it tried to equalize. This would be the advantage of using gaseous diffusion vs. particulate/mist such as with a bug bomb.
Dietrich
P.S.(I've likely gotten some terminology wrong as college chem and biology are a thing of the past, so feel free to fact check. Also, the insect thing is pretty cool, as there were truly huge insects about 200million years ago but the O2 content of the atmosphere was about 40% higher, allowing them to not suffocate themselves with size.)
Now CO, on the other hand, is a bit more of a bugger. It holds on to hemoglobin much more strongly than CO2 (higher affinity). Thus, a really low concentration will displace all the oxygen in your blood and then won't let go. This is why it's so dangerous, since it only takes a little to kill ya.
And, Mike, I'm pretty sure that you're still looking at a hemoglobin based system with arthropods. The major difference is a spicule and passive absorbtion system vs. lungs. That's why bugs can't get that big. Law of inverse proportions (the larger the volume, the lower the percentage of surface area).
Now whether you can get enough CO2 deep into the wood to cause acidosis and death is another question. My guess would be that a sufficient concentration of CO2 would suck itself right down into the wood as it tried to equalize. This would be the advantage of using gaseous diffusion vs. particulate/mist such as with a bug bomb.
Dietrich
P.S.(I've likely gotten some terminology wrong as college chem and biology are a thing of the past, so feel free to fact check. Also, the insect thing is pretty cool, as there were truly huge insects about 200million years ago but the O2 content of the atmosphere was about 40% higher, allowing them to not suffocate themselves with size.)
Hawaii in Pennsylvania
To David Sommers; I grew up in Pennsylvania and visited Hawaii once. If you know of a spot in Pennsylvania thats like Hawaii please let me know as soon as possible - just don't tell anyone else, I want it for myself.
To David Sommers; I grew up in Pennsylvania and visited Hawaii once. If you know of a spot in Pennsylvania thats like Hawaii please let me know as soon as possible - just don't tell anyone else, I want it for myself.