End grain bowl questions

[Alan Weinberg]

I’m fairly new at turning and what I’ve read on this site is that one turns end grain bowl exterior before interior, yet when I watched Kent on “Turn a Wood Bowl,” he turned outside first. I’ve turned outside first also since I didn’t know the other option. Which way? Either?

He also said one HAD to use a tenon since with end grain a mortise will spread the wood fibers and not hold well—yet not knowing that, I’ve done large ones with a mortise, esp after reading Reed’s threads. Thoughts?

Lastly, he said it’s fine to use a spindle roughing gouge on the outside of end grain bowls—but not side grain. I’ve read never to use a spindle roughing gouge on any bowls. Is it really never?

So, I need some comments re those three issues. My guess is that there are many right ways to turn.

I meant to say interior before exterior at beginning.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

1. Isn't outside and exterior the same?It is in my vernacular.
2. Use what you feel comfortable with . A tenon on end grain allows for a smaller foot that a supported mortise. The mortise must have enough wood outside to be a good support and not break out.
3. It can be done but not advisable. The original SRG was called a spindle gouge and has a thin tang. To stop confusion on its use the name was changed to spindle roughing gouge. Now at least 2 tool makers make a SRG with full size round tang which may alleviate the danger but I will not go there. By the way there are many ways to use the SRG on outside (exterior).

 

[hockenbery]

I’m fairly new at turning and what I’ve read on this site is that one turns end grain bowl exterior before interior

A thin walled endgrain hollowed vessel is best hollowed first then the outside is turned
These two are hollowed first 7” dia vase. 3” dia goblet

If your bowl wall is 3/8” ( maybe 1/4”) or thicker it can be hollowed after the outside is turned.

It is a wood structure issue. Turning the inside 2nd on a thin wall the wall is likely to crack because it cannot support any bevel presure.

said it’s fine to use a spindle roughing gouge on the outside of end grain bowls

Let’s be sure on terminology.
And end grain bowl - the long grain is parallel to the lathe bed - this makes it a spindle. So you can use an SRG if you don’t get catches. A bowl gouge is a better choice in most cases.
If you make a goof and cut uphill with the SRG you can get a horrific catch.
Same uphill goof with a bowl gouge you get a much less sever catch.


Lastly I use tenons on endgrain. In most cases a tenonwill hold better in a chuck than using a faceplate insect screws don’t hold well in endgrain.

 

[Alan Weinberg]

1. Isn't outside and exterior the same?It is in my vernacular.
2. Use what you feel comfortable with . A tenon on end grain allows for a smaller foot that a supported mortise. The mortise must have enough wood outside to be a good support and not break out.
3. It can be done but not advisable. The original SRG was called a spindle gouge and has a thin tang. To stop confusion on its use the name was changed to spindle roughing gouge. Now at least 2 tool makers make a SRG with full size round tang which may alleviate the danger but I will not go there. By the way there are many ways to use the SRG on outside (exterior).

I meant that I read one should turn interior before exterior. I mis-wrote. Thanks for catching and for answers.

 

[hockenbery]

I need some comments re those three issues.

It might be good to consider the direction of cut.

Best Direction of cut on endgrain hollowed bowls is opposite the best direction of cut on face grain bowls.
If you were to cut in the proper direction hollowing end grain first lets you cut the rim first.
Hollowing last leads to Cutting the rim last which can be impossible if the wood moves.


Hollowing end grain from the bottom up to the rim cuts fibers supported by a longer fiber.
There are special tools for this. Hook tools, ring tools, the covered hollowers.
The Hunter carbide tools work well and scrapers can clean up too.

Often folks cut the inside of an endgrain bowl in the wrong direction because they have to use a bowl gouge.
This leaves a lot of finish work with a scraper. Cutting inward lifts and tears the unsupported fibers.
Sharp tools and light cuts reduce tearout.

 

[Steve Bonny]

A couple of alternatives. I've been turning some end grain staved projects recently following direction from Ulf Jannson on the turning.
I glue the blank to a sacrificial glue block on a face plate (no chuck, no tenon etc to deal with).
I turn the outside first using SRG, spindle gouge, bowl gouge as needed to get the shape. I usually trim the shape with a NR scraper which is easier for me to get the form right, but roughens up the finish a little. For the inside, I've been using ring tools (per Ulf) and finding they work well. Turn from the inside out and then up the side of the vase. I do the top inch or 2 first down to final wall thickness, then work on the next 2 inches etc. I'm turning 2mm wall thickness with no issues.
Just some different options.....

 

[Steve Bonny]

I probably should mention, I use a steady rest and also leave a little extra meat on the OD at the base while hollowing. Photo above is after that meat is trimmed off.

 

[Doug Freeman]

1. 1st side - turned a lot of end grain bolws and box like shapes, including some very thin ones, down to .040” wall. I’ve always done them outside 1st, but….that is probably why I get cracks in the thin ones - thanks @hockenbery. You can easily get to 1/4” wall doing out/in, and probably 1/8” - mine cracks show up well under 1/8” wall. Next thin one I will take it down to ~1/8” then finish the OD.

2. I’m a tenon user anyway, more so with endgrain. Yes the mortice shoulder must be thicker with endgrain.

3. Correct on SRG…but…depends on how “clear” the wood is. I have had a few nasty catches, including breaking the tang, using an SRG on spindle wood with knots, etc. I don’t use one unless the wood is pretty clear, and after the piece is bought to mostly round with a bowl gouge. SRG’s aren’t great for irregular interrupted cuts like rounding a whole log section, you dont know what catches are just waiting, hidden by the bark.

 

[Dean Center]

Alan,
I suggest you look up "Traditional Japanese bowl turning", or something similar, on Youtube. In some cultures, end grain is the typical orientation for bowls. I recall seeing one video where the production turner mounted a spindle blank of maybe 3.5" diameter and 12" length into a cup chuck and made 3-4 'nested' bowls out of it. In about 10 minutes. Using 2 tools not quite like anything we have. Quite an eye opener.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Here is a video of a eastern EU turner turning engrain in many shapes with his own made turning tools.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EahMirztf_4

 

[Thomas Kila]

I turn primarily end-grain, Hawaiian calabash bowls and also use a spindle roughing gouge to start. Then I use my bowl gouge to shape the outside, before using a few Hunter carbide tools to hollow the inside. I finish with a negative rake scraper.

 

[Alan Weinberg]

I just got a Hunter Osprey and test drove it. Quite a tool with a bit of a learning curve—got a pretty big catch mis-manipulating it.

 

[Alan Weinberg]

Alan,
I suggest you look up "Traditional Japanese bowl turning", or something similar, on Youtube. In some cultures, end grain is the typical orientation for bowls. I recall seeing one video where the production turner mounted a spindle blank of maybe 3.5" diameter and 12" length into a cup chuck and made 3-4 'nested' bowls out of it. In about 10 minutes. Using 2 tools not quite like anything we have. Quite an eye opener.

just watched a couple—no eye or face protection, 4 fingers past the tool rest, lathe spinning opposite way that ours does, pretty different. Thanks.

 

[Dean Center]

But did you catch those long thin skew-like chisels? And the sorta hook tools? Not at all a bowl gouge and negative rake scraper.