Frustration with Robust AB banjo

[Ted Judd]

I was gifted a Robust American Beauty. It is of course more than a step up from my Grizzly G1067G. Kind of like going from a Yugo to a Cadillac when a Ford Escort . There are two frustration that I am having with the AB banjo.

1) I have to lift up the tool rest to rotate the handle enough to tighten against the tool rest post. Ya I forgot tool rest clamp handle is spring loaded on most lathes (even my old Grizzly).

2) Every time I want to change switch toolrests I have to either:
a) Jiggle the post in the banjo to get the wedge cams align so the post will slide in.
b) Use my finger to rotate and/or spread the wedges so the post will slide in.
c) Most of the time I have to disassemble the tool rest clamping mechanism. I can then reassemble piece by piece allowing me to insert the toolrest post at the correct place at the correct time.

I emailed Robust, no response.
I used the "Contact Us" form on the TurnRobust.com website., no response.

I called Robust and talked to the person that 'designed' the banjo with the wedge cam clamping mechanism (presumably Brent English himself).
I was reminded that the handle for the post clamp is spring loaded.
As to needing to fiddle with the the wedge cam toolrest post locking. I was informed that the moving handle of the locking system can cause the cam to rotate and that it can be lubricated (I confirmed that 3-in-1 oil would be appropriate).

What this mean is that unless I want to have to disassemble the toolrest clamping I:
1) Have to made sure the clamp handle is pointed exactly down when I remove the toolrest (yes gravity alone on the handle will make me have to disassemble the mechanism)
2) cannot bump the handle for of the clamp
3) cannot move the banjo with no toolrest inserted.
I find myself dreading the need to change toolrests.

What am I doing wrong?

 

[JeffSmith]

I’m not sure what you’re doing wrong, but in the 12 years I’ve had mine, I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve had a problem with the banjo or it’s clamping mechanism. I change tool rests often and very, very seldom have any issues where the wedges get out of alignment. I do try to remember to clean the wedges and the post hole every year or so…

 

[William Rogers]

Like Jeff I rarely have any problem changing tool rest. Yes, there have been times when I have bumped it out of alignment. When that happens I open it an extra turn and use my fingers to realign the wedges. I keep mine relatively clean and use graphite as a lube. Brent (Robust) didn’t come up with that design. He took it from the PM 90 lathe design. PM has since brought that design back to the PM 3520C. That design has been around a long time.

 

[Gabriel Hoff]

Had this issue on my brother's Sweet 16 and it was because he was clamping the tool rest to hard. It created small areas of bent metal that made it impossible to turn or insert the tool rest. I took it all apart and cleaned it and also filed down the edges so it would go in and out smoothly. With lubricant like Boeshield T9 he has not had a problem since.

 

[hockenbery]

Every time I want to change switch toolrests I have to either:
a) Jiggle the post in the banjo to get the wedge cams align so the post will slide in.
b) Use my finger to rotate and/or spread the wedges so the post will slide in.
c) Most of the time I have to disassemble the tool rest clamping mechanism. I can then reassemble piece by piece allowing me to insert the toolrest post at the correct place at the correct time.

Open the tool post clamp a full extra turn. then swap the tool rests without bumping the banjo.

my pet peeve too!

I always struggle with this in demos on pinch nut lathes - the robust, new jets, new powermatic
the ONEWAY banjo spoils the user. my habit is to open the handle let it drop after removing the tool rest
the raise the hand to open the clamp to accept the different tool rest. - absolute worst way to operate a pinch nut banjo.
the dropping lever closes the pinch nut raising the handle moves the pinch nut off center.

when I need to swap the locking handle to the other side on a pinch nut lathe
sliding it out is easy, sliding it in the other side is halfway smooth, then the fun begins gettin the nuts out of the hole.
all said and done pinch nuts grip well.

 

[Roger Wiegand]

Not sure what I'm doing or not doing, but I only occasionally knock the cams out of line and have to manually straighten them. It is irritating when it happens, but the clamping with that system is so much more secure and non-damaging of the shaft than other systems I've used that I'm happy to put up with it. I guess I just must have the toolrest clamp lever in the right position, I can't remember ever having to reposition it. I do have to unwind it a full turn when the cams get misaligned, but in regular use it's just a quarter turn at most to reposition or change toolrests.

I do find that it's important to clean and lubricate the bottom of the banjo. With sap from green wood it can get pretty balky. I've been using a teflon spray lubricant after cleaning with a scotchbrite pad and some 409.

 

[hockenbery]

that system is so much more secure and non-damaging of the shaft than other systems I've use

Don’t ever use a ONEWAY Banjo. -
they clamp as well or better - its a pinch mechanism of sorts but uses one nut to clamp. And the handle is over the banjo lock so it is always out of the way.

 

[Larry Mercier]

I agree with Roger. The benefits far outway the occasional frustration.

 

[robo hippy]

Well, the wedges are not set up for any kind of track that will keep them in perfect position. They do need to be lubricated, and just about anything will work. If the tool rest doesn't go straight in, I stick my finger in to put them in place. Got used to that.

robo hippy

 

[Brent@TurnRobust]

Hi Ted, Brent English from Robust here. Yes, you spoke with me, and I'm sorry my explanations didn't get you to a happy place. You've had several good comments from other owners here, so please let me add a couple of friendly suggestions.

First, good on you for getting such a nice gift. They rarely come up used, and when they do, they usually retain much of their original value when sold. So selling yours is an option (you may want to ask the folks that gave it to you first, of course). Then use that money to get what you want. As others have noted, don't get a new Powermatic or one of the older US made ones, as they have the same toolrest clamp design. I think Jet and some others do as well.

A second option for you is to take a cue from Mr. Hockenbery, and buy a Oneway banjo. They'll need to know the distance between the ways to make the clamp block. The AB has a 2.5" gap.

Good luck with your turning. Brent English, President, Robust Tools.

 

[Gary Beasley]

I wonder if a small magnet stuck to the outside of the banjo will make the insert stay put.

 

[Ted Judd]

I’m not sure what you’re doing wrong, but in the 12 years I’ve had mine, I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve had a problem with the banjo or it’s clamping mechanism. I change tool rests often and very, very seldom have any issues where the wedges get out of alignment. I do try to remember to clean the wedges and the post hole every year or so…

Thank you for your suggestion. My issue does not have the same cause (I checked). A good step to start with in any case.

 

[Ted Judd]

. . .. I do have to unwind it a full turn when the cams get misaligned, but in regular use it's just a quarter turn at most to reposition or change toolrests.

I do find that it's important to clean and lubricate the bottom of the banjo. With sap from green wood it can get pretty balky. I've been using a teflon spray lubricant after cleaning with a scotchbrite pad and some 409.

You don't find that not the handle moving from gravity in the quarter turn removing the tool rest gets makes the cams to become misaligned?

 

[Ted Judd]

Open the tool post clamp a full extra turn. then swap the tool rests without bumping the banjo.

my pet peeve too!

I always struggle with this in demos on pinch nut lathes - the robust, new jets, new powermatic
the ONEWAY banjo spoils the user. my habit is to open the handle let it drop after removing the tool rest
the raise the hand to open the clamp to accept the different tool rest. - absolute worst way to operate a pinch nut banjo.
the dropping lever closes the pinch nut raising the handle moves the pinch nut off center.

when I need to swap the locking handle to the other side on a pinch nut lathe
sliding it out is easy, sliding it in the other side is halfway smooth, then the fun begins gettin the nuts out of the hole.
all said and done pinch nuts grip well.

 

[Kevin Jenness]

I missed that the lathe was a gift. At that price you can afford to replace the banjo . You wouldn't go wrong with a Oneway, maybe disguise it with hammer-finish black paint.

 

[Ted Judd]

. . . Brent (Robust) didn’t come up with that design. He took it from the PM 90 lathe design. PM has since brought that design back to the PM 3520C. That design has been around a long time.

I most likely got that he designed the clamping system wrong, that would be my mistake and not Brent's.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I was gifted a Robust American Beauty. It is of course more than a step up from my Grizzly G1067G. Kind of like going from a Yugo to a Cadillac when a Ford Escort . There are two frustration that I am having with the AB banjo.

1) I have to lift up the tool rest to rotate the handle enough to tighten against the tool rest post. Ya I forgot tool rest clamp handle is spring loaded on most lathes (even my old Grizzly).

snip
snip
snip

What am I doing wrong?

You should have traded it in for a ONEWAY banjo

 

[Ted Judd]

Well, the wedges are not set up for any kind of track that will keep them in perfect position. They do need to be lubricated, and just about anything will work. If the tool rest doesn't go straight in, I stick my finger in to put them in place. Got used to that.

robo hippy

I have tried the finger trick however most of the time I still have to disassemble the clamp if I am not careful enough.

 

[JeffSmith]

just a thought, but have you tried putting the handle on the other side? It just pulls out (wedges and all) and can go in either direction.

 

[Ted Judd]

Hi Ted, Brent English from Robust here. Yes, you spoke with me, and I'm sorry my explanations didn't get you to a happy place. You've had several good comments from other owners here, so please let me add a couple of friendly suggestions.

First, good on you for getting such a nice gift. They rarely come up used, and when they do, they usually retain much of their original value when sold. So selling yours is an option (you may want to ask the folks that gave it to you first, of course). Then use that money to get what you want. As others have noted, don't get a new Powermatic or one of the older US made ones, as they have the same toolrest clamp design. I think Jet and some others do as well.

A second option for you is to take a cue from Mr. Hockenbery, and buy a Oneway banjo. They'll need to know the distance between the ways to make the clamp block. The AB has a 2.5" gap.

Good luck with your turning. Brent English, President, Robust Tools.

Thank you for your reply and answering the phone when I called about the issue. I posted here not to put blame on the service received but to see if anyone else had the same issues and how they worked them out. I had no doubt there was user error involved somewhere.

As to the lathe being a gift, I am still amazed. It was way too generous since I was only hoping to buy Robust toolrest I could use on the Grizzly lathe. I did buy the Robust scout banjo for the Grizzly.

As to selling the AB, ya right. I don't see that happening unless my life situation changed and I needed to downsize.

As to the Oneway banjo, I might take a look at that option if I find I can't cope with the issue. Most likely I just need make adjustments on use of the AB banjo to better align with the system as designed.

 

[William Rogers]

I most likely got that he designed the clamping system wrong, that would be my mistake and not Brent's.

Brent has always said he got the design from and never claimed credit. I understood that was your impression and not Brent making that statement.

Now that I think about it I do remove the wedges and clean the bore and wedges with scotch bright. Maybe once a year. As I said I use graphite powder as a lubricant instead of oil. Less problems with sawdust.

 

[Ted Judd]

just a thought, but have you tried putting the handle on the other side? It just pulls out (wedges and all) and can go in either direction.

I have which lead me to suppose maybe I messed something up and lost a washer, spacer, or something else. I do not remembering noticing the issue before switching the lever to the other side. At the time I don't think I had more than the toolrest shipped with, therefore no switching.

 

[Ted Judd]

Well, the wedges are not set up for any kind of track that will keep them in perfect position. They do need to be lubricated, and just about anything will work. If the tool rest doesn't go straight in, I stick my finger in to put them in place. Got used to that.

robo hippy

Funny you mention the lack of a track (or indexing) to stop the cams from rotating. That is the first thing I thought would be a good design feature if the problem was not caused by my user error.

 

[Ted Judd]

Brent has always said he got the design from and never claimed credit. I understood that was your impression and not Brent making that statement.

Now that I think about it I do remove the wedges and clean the bore and wedges with scotch bright. Maybe once a year. As I said I use graphite powder as a lubricant instead of oil. Less problems with sawdust.

You are correct that my understanding was the clamping system (as well as the rest of the banjo and lathe) were designed by Brent.
In my phone conversation Brent said the words "I designed it". I now suspect he was not talking about the clamping system but maybe the banjo or the lathe as a whole and I got confused. The only other lathe I have ever used is my $206 auction bought Grizzly. It has the type of clamp where a screw pushes against the toolrest post, just like the Robust Scout banjo I bought for the Grizzly. Therefore I have never the cam system for toolrest holding before I received that AB.

As to cleaning and lubricating the wedges and bore. I had cleaned the wedges and bore before I even tried to contact Robust about my issue, I did not oil it at all. I have only had the lathe a few months and I did confirm with Brent that the 3-in-1 oil would be appropriate. I do see how using a dry lube like graphite could be better than a liquid oil if too much is used.

 

[Ted Judd]

I missed that the lathe was a gift. At that price you can afford to replace the banjo . You wouldn't go wrong with a Oneway, maybe disguise it with hammer-finish black paint.

lol, getting an overly generous gift does not necessarily mean the recipient has the budget to accessorize said gift. I will look into the Oneway banjo.

However, I am not sure it is in the budget considering I have only 1 bowl gouge, no spindle gouges, and the carbide tools I made myself.
I think I just need to adjust how I work with the system as it shipped, maybe get a small toolrest or just a a post to put in the bore to limit the toolrest being in my way when I am not using the banjo.

 

[William Rogers]

It is hard to say if your banjo has something giving you the problems. From memory the last time I “serviced” mine I wrapped some scotch bright around a wooden dowel to clean the bore. I am sure oil is fine, but may shorten the “service” interval. Not sure that I do anything different than you when installing a tool rest. When I change tool rest I lift one out and then set the next one in before I touch the handle to tighten it, habit. If the post doesn’t go pass the wedges I loosen it and it almost goes down. OneWay banjos are great as ALL of Oneway products are, but it would be hard for me to replace a Robust banjo as IMO the cost doesn’t justify the added benefit.

 

[hockenbery]

It’s just a short learning curve
as long as you open an extra turn and don’t move the banjo without a rest in it you will get along fine with your banjo.

If I used a pinch nut banjo every day my habit would be to open the handle an extra turn to let it drop without closing into the hole as I remove the toolrest from the banjo. Then i wouldn’t move or bump the banjo so the hole stays clear I until I put the other tool rest in the banjo.
the pinch nut is excellent at post locking. The Robust banjo is very nice to use.

my problem with pinch lock banjos Is I only use a pinch lock banjo once or twice a year In demos. So in the heat of a demo when I’m changing tool rests I’m likely to be talking about something else and I just lift the handle pull out the rest and block the hole without thinking. Then I have to open the lever an extra turn reach In the hole to push nuts clear with an audience.

 

[Roger Wiegand]

You don't find that not the handle moving from gravity in the quarter turn removing the tool rest gets makes the cams to become misaligned?

Actually now that you mention it, no. The handle has enough resistance that it stays where I leave it. Perhaps it too is gummed up with maple sap-- that would not be a surprise! A rare case maybe where gunk is a good thing.

 

[Dean Center]

Ted, you've had a number of responses from users of the Robust banjo, and I would summarize them as saying, "yes, there's some potential for problems, but I don't have as much trouble as you describe." That suggests to me that your individual banjo has a problem that others don't, or the way you're using it involves some troublesome little movement or action that you do that the others don't which is creating the problem. Cleaning it was a repeated suggestion and you said you've done that.

I'd say the next step would be to find another Robust user and look over his/her banjo. Maybe there's a little part missing on yours, or something is backwards, or the previous owner modified or damaged something. If that doesn't get you an answer, then have the other user watch you as you change some tool rests and try to identify a source of jostling or error.

If you don't know anyone with a Robust, perhaps Brent could reach out to a customer in your area and ask that person if they'll help you out.

 

[Mike Novak]

I have a PM with same style post lock. It only took me a few days to get used to it. One thing I didn’t do is I said it so that when I open the clamp the handle is pointing down so gravity doesn’t move it.

I have thought of a couple of small modifications that might help. The first is simply to put a small chamfer on the edge of the tool post So it’s harder to get hung up. The next Idea was to put a small spring in between the two clamp blocks. This would push them apart when I unscrew and also keep them from going out of alignment with each other.

It’s not really a big enough deal for me to take the time to chamfer or find a spring, but might be good Ideas for someone else.

For what it’s worth I’m jealous.