Glue Question for Segmenters

[Richard Baker]

Using Titebond II or the equivalent Elmer's on segmented work, what is the minimum set up time you allow before sanding a ring, and for turning a ring freshly glued to the workpiece? Granted that overnight is good, what is the minimum acceptable time?

 

[bonsaipeter]

Minimum Glue Set Time

Unfortunely your question has no definitive time answer. The minimum set time to assure that you rings will stay together during sanding and gluing to the piece will be determined by several factors such as: specific glue being used, freshness or age of the glue, moisture content of wood, ambient humidity and temperature, tightness of fit of the joints, and probably other factors that I have missed. With the types of glue you are contemplating, one hour of clamp time I would think should be sufficient if the rings are then handled with care. Two or more hours would be better. The trick is to construct several rings at a time in sequence so that as the first completed ring is drying your time is well utilized in constructing the second ring, then the third, etc.

Patience has its rewards.

Peter

 

[Walt]

I have never push the cure or drying time. I usually cut, sand and glue up my rings in one day. The next day I'll clean up the rings for final assembly and plan on turning it the next day.

Walt

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

I always wait a minimum of 12 hours before turning anything I've glued. I don't turn each ring after it's been added. I glue up all the rings to construct the rough form in a day and then turn the rough form to it's finished shape the next day (or later).

Ed

 

[NBHowe]

Glue up

I like to let my glued up up rings set up overnight before I run them though the drum sander. Once I have stacked and glued them ready for turning, I let the whole assembly stand for a few days. Then I turn it. Although I do not crank on the pressure when clamping, I think there must be some slight compression of the wood when its clamped together, letting it stand for a few days lets the wood relax. I have no reason for doing this other than it kinda makes sense. I wood do this no matter what glue I am using.
Nigel

 

[john lucas]

I used to glue and clamp rings and then in about an hour I would mount them on the lathe in a special jig I made and true them up. Then glue the whole asembly together and let that sit overnight. I never had one blow up but did have problems with bumps where the glue was. My understanding is that the glue swells the wood due to the water. then you turn it and sand it and later the wood shrinks and have a noticeable glue line that can be felt. I turned a lot of bowls done this way over about a 5 year period and non that I know of have failed. I did have a few platters that died and giant goblet but I think those were due to wood movement and wouldn't have survived no matter what you did.
Now I glue everything up, let it sit overnight. True up all the rings and glue the vessel together. I let that sit at least a week, or longer depending on my work schedule. Then I start turning it. Seems like most of my problems with the glue creep have gone away. I use Titebond ll. It doesn't run as bad as other glues so it's not quite as messy.
Anyone else have a solution to the glue creep. I haven't done many segmented vessels in the last several years and this has worked so far.

 

[Richard Baker]

Thanks for your replies!

Very interesting replies, and thank you all! Sounds like I already have it honed down to the minimum, or less. Usually allow 4 hours before sanding/flattening a ring, but have found that a ring flattened yesterday may not be flat today. Also turn one to three rings 4 hours after glueing to the workpiece on the lathe, and find the next day that they're a little out of round and/or a little off center. Even monolithic pieces of "dry" wood seem to move a little with small changes in temp. and humidity overnight.

 

[cypher]

IMHO I would not use Titebond II it tends to move more then Titebond I. I use Titebond I and I have tested the time needed to dry. I am not a very patient person and it kills me having to wait for glue to dry. I know MANY people will object to this but I have turned rings 30-45 min after gluing. I glue up the segments, clamp them, set them in the sun to dry. Mind you this is a rough turn in order flatten and stack the rings. I leave the piece on the lathe with the tailstock against it for added pressure. Once I have all the rings stacked, I leave it to dry for 24 hours then come back for final turn, sand, finish.

 

[Richard Baker]

Cypher (Eric?),
Thanks for your response. I am similarly impatient, and often sand pieces or turn things that most folks leave overnight. Am curious what you mean by saying that II "tends to move" more than I?

 

[Bob Way]

I can be an impatient guy at times. But I force myself to let the glue cure both during glue up, and once the piece is turned. I'm not sure there is any science to this at all, but my reasoning is the glue introduces a fair amount of moisture to the joints. The drying/curing process seems to be that the outside exposed edges of the joint will be the first to cure, but the interior will take a little longer. I agree the joint has a fair amount of strength to it in an hour or two. But, as much as I hate it, I will let my glue ups set over night to allow the interior part of the joint cure.

I will also turn and sand my segmented piece, but will wait a day or two before finishing it. Again, there is probably no science with this. My reasoning is that while I've introduced moisture to the joints with the glue, and even though I've tried to allow enough time for it to cure all the way through, I'm not quite convinced it has. In turning the blank, I've probably removed a lot of the truly dried and cured parts, but may have exposed some areas that might still be iffy. I may also have modified the stresses in the wood. So, as much as I hate it, I will let that turning set for a couple of days before resanding if necessary and finishing it.

Once again, there is no science behind this, but since I started forcing the impatient part, to be a little more patient, my impression is that I've not had any of the "glue creep" I used to get on occassion.

 

[cypher]

Cypher (Eric?), (yes)
Am curious what you mean by saying that II "tends to move" more than I?

I have noticed that when you apply pressure the glued up pieces with Titebond II the joints slip more then titebond I. When I tried II, I clamped my ring with a large hose clamp with two melamine disks top and bottom for vertical pressure. After removing the disks and letting sit to dry the segments moved slightly. With titebond I this movement did not happen or was dramatically less.

 

[Richard Baker]

Thanks Bob. I have no doubt that your longer procedure is the better one. Just can't bring myself to wait that long.

Cypher, Interesting observation. I have not seen that effect, but probably I just never noticed it. I just check to see that all the joints are tight, with no visible gaps.