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Gouge question...

S

Scott Barton

Joined
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Location
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Website
www.phaedrusdesignlab.com
What is the proper name for a gouge that is used for hollowing and extends out and has a "rest" for your forearm?

A photo similar to what I am looking for can be found on the upper right corner of the Robert Sorby RS2000 page.

Any other options on people who make them?
 
rs206.jpg

If the above is what you're talking about, I've heard it called an "arm brace". It was developed by Dennis Stewart and Sorby has a license to sell a version.

I don't know if any of the "real" Stewart tools are still in production but if you find one, I prefer that over the Sorby I compared it to several years ago. The Stewart has a more rigid (less maleable) u-shaped cup for your forearm and better foam material in the cup. I don't recall other differences...
 
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Wow, I'm kind of going off topic on this one, but that tool is pretty expensive. Over 200 bucks... I'd get couple of heavy scrapers with that money. But I guess the only benefit of that tool is that, by adding a custom length metal rod, or a dowel, the tool can become a walking stick :)
 
Jake Gevorgian said:
Wow, I'm kind of going off topic on this one, but that tool is pretty expensive. Over 200 bucks... I'd get couple of heavy scrapers with that money. But I guess the only benefit of that tool is that, by adding a custom length metal rod, or a dowel, the tool can become a walking stick :)
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After you bust your wallet paying for the brace, you may need a walking aid for awhile. I think that the idea for this tool holder was borrowed from a walking brace anyway.
 
Some turners like them. Personally, I would rather have my hand near the back of the handle and tucked into my side for stability. I could make a really long handle if necessary ... and maybe for less than $200 if I stay away from exotic tropical wood for the handle. :D
 
After watching Mike Mahoney and John Jordan use one, I decided to get an armbrace-type holder for hollowing, and I love it. I also have long and heavy straight handles, one has a side handle option. I prefer the armbrace for most stuff. Mine is the Don Pencil Scorpion. It is comfortable, well-built, and affords great control. I use John Jordan's tools in it, as well as some of the tools that came with the Scorpion. Money well spent for me.
 
I nearly bought a Jordan. I have some damage to my right hand and that style does lessen the strain on it. I opted instead for an articulated hollower but it was close.
 
Mark Levitski said:
After watching Mike Mahoney and John Jordan use one, I decided to get an armbrace-type holder for hollowing, and I love it. I also have long and heavy straight handles, one has a side handle option. I prefer the armbrace for most stuff. Mine is the Don Pencil Scorpion. It is comfortable, well-built, and affords great control. I use John Jordan's tools in it, as well as some of the tools that came with the Scorpion. Money well spent for me.
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I have a few questions on that one. The arm brace part is just a rod. First, is it comfortable? Second, does it give a lot of support (or is it just intended to keep the handle in line with your forearm)?

also, since the Jordan version isn't a pistol grip, it is more of, oh, let's call it a golf grip, does that wear your arm out? What are the advantages there?
 
Scott,

Don't know about the Jordan arm brace handle--never used one.

Yes it's comfortable. Yes, it gives more control. The combination of the pistol grip (rotational control) and forearm saddle (more like your phrase "in line with your forearm") feels secure and natural. I use it most of the time now instead of a straight handle.
 
Scott Barton said:
I have a few questions on that one. The arm brace part is just a rod. First, is it comfortable? Second, does it give a lot of support (or is it just intended to keep the handle in line with your forearm)?

also, since the Jordan version isn't a pistol grip, it is more of, oh, let's call it a golf grip, does that wear your arm out? What are the advantages there?
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Mark noted that the pistol grip portion helps with rotational forces - the rod portion doesn't really contact the forearm as far as you can feel - it's the "saddle" at the elbow which provides vertical stability using your upper arm and shoulder to counter the downward forces of the wood against the tool.

There are certainly some considerations to this style of hollowing:
1) Your forearm and upper body needs to be nearly in line with the center axis of the turning, which means you are leaning sideways over the lathe bed. If you can hollow straight on with a short bed or a swiveling head lathe, that would be better for your back.
2) Your elbow height in relation to the tooltip near vertical center needs to be taken into account. If you need to lower your upper body to make it work, you really don't want to bend down for any length of time - again, think of your back.
3) Lastly, some turners, (Christian Burchard for example) have stopped using this style of hollowing because of the long-term stresses on the shoulder that's absorbing the forces. I haven't felt anything like that, but I don't hollow anywhere near the number of pieces that Christian does/did.
 
Owen Lowe said:
Mark noted that the pistol grip portion helps with rotational forces - the rod portion doesn't really contact the forearm as far as you can feel - it's the "saddle" at the elbow which provides vertical stability using your upper arm and shoulder to counter the downward forces of the wood against the tool.

There are certainly some considerations to this style of hollowing:
1) Your forearm and upper body needs to be nearly in line with the center axis of the turning, which means you are leaning sideways over the lathe bed. If you can hollow straight on with a short bed or a swiveling head lathe, that would be better for your back.
2) Your elbow height in relation to the tooltip near vertical center needs to be taken into account. If you need to lower your upper body to make it work, you really don't want to bend down for any length of time - again, think of your back.
3) Lastly, some turners, (Christian Burchard for example) have stopped using this style of hollowing because of the long-term stresses on the shoulder that's absorbing the forces. I haven't felt anything like that, but I don't hollow anywhere near the number of pieces that Christian does/did.
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Interesting. I have a long way to go before I am cranking out enough work to cause too much stress, that that is a good point.

I can't really work easily from a dead on in-line stance. However, I am designing my new set up to do that.

I wonder if the rotational advantage gained from the pistol grip is that dramatic.
 
Scott Barton said:
Interesting. I have a long way to go before I am cranking out enough work to cause too much stress, that that is a good point.

I can't really work easily from a dead on in-line stance. However, I am designing my new set up to do that.

I wonder if the rotational advantage gained from the pistol grip is that dramatic.
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I have thought about some of the considerations that Owen mentioned. Recently I have started experiencing both elbow and shoulder problems and the thought of using them to take the brunt of any sort of forces or vibrations for any length of time doesn't appeal to me. I can also envision having problems with a long handle tool if if trying to do any sort of deep hollowing. For that reason, I have been looking at various captive bar hollowing rigs.

I am not so sure about the pistol grip style handle -- a proper hollowing tool should be designed so that there is not any torque transmitted up the tool shank -- or at the very least, any torque should be very small.
 
Bill Boehme said:
I have thought about some of the considerations that Owen mentioned. Recently I have started experiencing both elbow and shoulder problems and the thought of using them to take the brunt of any sort of forces or vibrations for any length of time doesn't appeal to me. I can also envision having problems with a long handle tool if if trying to do any sort of deep hollowing. For that reason, I have been looking at various captive bar hollowing rigs.
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I'm sure the captive rigs are much better and safer than pistol grip or side handles. I've never used a captive or articulated system.

I am not so sure about the pistol grip style handle -- a proper hollowing tool should be designed so that there is not any torque transmitted up the tool shank -- or at the very least, any torque should be very small.
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Most of the small scraper cutters used in hollowing, once mastered, do not pose much in the way of dangerous catches or heavy torque, though catches can happen from all tools. The armbrace, for me anyway, helps in a smoother motion and also provides a background of security against the errant small tool missteps that don't necessarily result in a catch but make for a bad surface.

Bill, aren't you sorta contradicting yourself by "a proper hollowing tool should be designed so that there is not any torque" and then wanting a captive system? (I'm pokin' fun at ya here.)

Mark
 
Jake Gevorgian said:
I just remembered the biggest catch I had with the scraper -- Jeez, I wouldn't want the brace to be on me while that happened.
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Keep in mind that these types of hollowing tools use a very small tool tip - 1/4" or less - and any catches are pretty minor physical events. I've certainly had my share of mishaps inside a vessel, but nothing that caused a sudden injury.
 
Mark Levitski said:
.... Bill, aren't you sorta contradicting yourself by "a proper hollowing tool should be designed so that there is not any torque" and then wanting a captive system? (I'm pokin' fun at ya here.)

Mark
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Not in the least, but I can see that there is more than one way to interpret what I was saying.

My comment about torque was directed to a previous question about the usefulness of the pistol grip and my response was meant to indicate that a proper hollowing tool (which would be most all of the established brand name tools) would not have much of any torque anyway.

Completely separate subject about me wanting a captive hollowing rig: I can go only so deep -- maybe about 9 - 10 inches and about 8" diameter max with hand held tools. I have some huge pieces of mesquite and need to go about three times that limit on depth and twice the limit on diameter. Before last August this was not even on my radar, but then my wife said, "if you want a Robust, then get one". As soon as the stun effect wore off, I stumbled to the phone to call Brent. Things like this don't happen every day. One of my pieces of mesquite crotch started out about 30" in both diameter and length -- turns out it is fairly rare bird's eye mesquite and has beautiful feathering. Lightning strikes again when she says, "I want that mesquite vase -- if you need a hollowing rig, then get one." And what is a Robust AB anyway without a deep hollowing rig. :D
 
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I've been using my Stewart armbrace tool since 1987. Many, many HF's turned since then.

I'm convinced that most large catches are a result of losing control of the tool with a small catch. With the armbrace, I have much better control of the tool. In all the years I've used the tool I suppose that I've a big catch but I can't remember any.

One advantage with the pistol grip is that I can control exactly how much I tip the cutter in a downward angle. I think that I get a better cut that way, especially when I'm using the large scraper blade.

The ablility to swivel the cutter to present it to the wood at the best angle in different parts of the HF is very important to me.

The only way to properly use the tool is to stand facing the piece. I always have the tool tucked against my side for better control and safer turning.
I do my HF turning using the outboard bed on my Oneway. Leaning out over the bed to use the tool on a longbed lathe would be tiresome and even unsafe.
 
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