Have you ever.....

[Odie]

.....watched a great athlete, singer, dancer, artist, etc....do what they do, and tell yourself you can do that?

The same thing applies with getting the perfect cut on difficult wood....a cut that requires the bare minimum of fine sanding by hand....a cut that eliminates the need for any power sanding at all. We can be told everything we need to know about it......but, if there is a lack of something special within the soul that "brings it all together", we will never achieve it......even if we throw lots of money at it! If we are fortunate enough to possess the necessary soulful elements......we still won't "get it", not without great amounts of practice and experimentation. If the "silver bullet" is within the soul and that rare element is added to "time in the saddle" plus sheer determination to overcome the long term "trial and error" process, then exceptional results are possible.....but there is nothing in life that is a certainty!

(That's my bit of woodturning philosophy for today.....and, if you disagree with that, or otherwise wish to comment.....then I invite you to respond....)

-o-

 

[Odie]

Something to consider:

"Spiritual turning"......

In a thread not long ago, I spoke of "knowing what turners knew 100 years ago". In my opinion, the things our ancestors knew about turning, isn't something that can be written so that others can understand. You will not find the secrets of "spiritual turning" in any book. For the most part...

www.aawforum.org

-o-

 

[robo hippy]

I am older and wiser now, so, most of the time, I know better..... Also, I quit drinking a long time ago.... "Nurse, the next person you see after saying hold my beer and watch this!"

robo hippy

 

[Odie]

I am older and wiser now, so, most of the time, I know better..... Also, I quit drinking a long time ago.... "Nurse, the next person you see after saying hold my beer and watch this!"

robo hippy

Ha,ha.....you're joking, robo.

I'm alcohol free, drug free, tobacco free......

I was dead serious about post #1.....if you can't understand what I said, or think that I was joking.....then that's ok.....

-o-

 

[Odie]

Well.....it is surprising to me that there isn't constructive comments on the thought that the perfect cut might have something to do with a relationship with a naturally occurring ability....a "spiritual" connection, originating within the soul.

-o-

 

[robo hippy]

Perhaps you are talking about the Zen of turning. No problem getting into the 'zone' when I turn. I don't have to 'think' about it to do it, it just comes on its own. Some have to work at it, some don't.

robo hippy

 

[Marc Banka]

I don’t believe in the mysticism or the channeling of the ancient woodturners. I do believe in a thing called ‘being in the zone’, though. This is the best place from which to create; a calm mind, free of fear where one can see/feel their vision, the form one would like, and to be able to execute that vision with confidence and great skill.

So, it’s very much like studying a musical instrument, where the requirements are technical skill and a thorough understanding of the art known as music. It’s not just crucial to learn the skills, but to do them (correctly) over and over with thought and care, until they become automatic. Then learn the art, what’s good and what’s not. What’s beautiful and what’s not. What it means to be beautiful. Then to learn those beautiful things, to repeat(with care) until they’re committed to memory.
It’s a lot of work and a lot of thought/growth, but the rewards can be amazing!

Random connection here between turning and playing an instrument is the performance nature of both. When we set a gouge to the wood we start the performance. Each cut is permanent. Each movement is for keeps, no do-overs. Same when I play, a wrong note can’t be taken back!

Back to turning though. Many, many skills to be mastered (not just learned). A critical eye is needed, as is a strong desire to always be better. Form needs to be studied, and observed. If you make bowls, you should be looking at a lot of them, only the good ones, though. You need to have that image in your mind, foot, rim and everything in between when you make a bowl. Then, most importantly, one needs to look at the creation. What’s great about it? What’s not? What are the most significant changes I can make to the next piece? To set your ego aside and be truly critical of your own work.

If you can be in the shop with a plan in mind, what you’ll do and how you’ll do it. If your hands and fingers know how to manipulate your tool, freeing your mind to be creative. If you want excellence for all of your cuts, and know how to do it, if you can find a calm headspace, you may find yourself ‘in the zone’. A zone where you not only make the cut perfectly, but enjoy that cut, that mastery just for itself. It’s a wonderful place, if you can find it!

Marc

 

[Odie]

After a bad start, we're now getting the kind of comments I was hoping for......

Thanks @Marc Banka & @robo hippy !

No matter how we define the "connection", not everyone successfully does, or can enter "the zone", or understand "the Zen of turning".....how you interpret, or define those things is what I was looking for comments on......

-o-

 

[Marc Banka]

The zone is a personal thing though. Mine is not yours.
I have a problem with perfectionism, and my turning allows me to express that without hurting anyone’s feelings. That’s my zone. For others is might be making ten pieces in a day.

 

[Darryn Achall]

I don't turn very many useful items. When I feel the turning Zen is when forming things just for the artistic piece (or peace). If I don't need to think about the technical aspects of turning, or what a buyer might see, I can be connected to the moment at hand. Of course, you need to have the knowledge, experience, and equipment available that allow you to safely go to that place.

 

[Odie]

I have a problem with perfectionism, and my turning allows me to express that without hurting anyone’s feelings. That’s my zone.

This is where we differ, Marc.

I am on my own personal quest for perfection. Although very few of my bowls live up to that standard, it's a personal philosophy that drives me. My interactive attitude is one of "I'm ok, you're ok". Although I have my own very strict personal set of standards, I try not to allow that to influence me into making judgements about anyone else's work, or their own personal set of standards......and their own ways of expressing them.....however that may manifest.

-o-

 

[Will Armstrong]

This is a great topic. I saw Odie's original post yesterday morning and thought I would think on it while out during the day. Upon return I was delighted to see that Marc summarized much of what I was feeling, but thankfully expressed it far more eloquently than I could have.
Malcolm Gladwell's concept of reaching "mastery" after 10,000 hours "in the saddle" also came to mind. I doubt I will ever consider myself a master but am embracing the hours of experiential learning required to produce piles of shavings with hope that the resulting turning will reflect a bit of ME. When I am feeling "in the zone", when I feel that I am harmoniously connecting to the wood via the tool it is very satisfying... I guess it's a spiritual feeling for me. To have the skill and sensitivity to work that ever-changing piece of wood is a metaphor for my ability to walk through this world and feel that I am a part of it.
(And that is MY little bit of woodturning philosophy for today. Time to get down in the shop and try to be the "Wood Whisperer!)

 

[Dave Fritz]

I played in a band with a guy from Dubuque, Iowa. He played clarinet and once after a solo he turned and said, "I don't understand, I blow in this thing Benny Goodman and it comes out like Harley Gra$#@" It's a universal phenomena. Not everyone is destined to be great, it's the journey. Some are more driven than others. For me as I've gotten older I now realize I will never be a great drummer, heck I can't keep the sticks in my hands. Life goes on, I had fun, made some money and best of all made some life long friends. Good enough has become my mantra.

 

[Odie]

be the "Wood Whisperer!

^^^^^ I like that!

-o-

 

[robo hippy]

I have been trying to play the guitar since the Beatles came out. I still am not any good, but I have fun. My fingers just don't make that connection from my brain to play what my brain hears..... With turning, well, that was like swimming to a duck. Oh, I am an Oregon Duck too, but that is unrelated..... Maybe if I had 8 hours a day to play the guitar, I would get much better.... With some things, we just connect. With others, we never will.... We may get closer though.

robo hippy

 

[Duncan Anderson]

Hi Guys
I very rarely (never before?) post on here but found Odie's post interesting.
"It" very definitely does not reside in me and I will probably never be anything other than a decidedly average woodturner. This doesn't bother me too much and I know that if I worked at it harder and more scientifically, I would improve - but it's a hobby, and I'm not trying to make money out of it, so I do as little or as much as I wish.
Having said that, I'm not sure I agree with Odie's central premise which I read as saying that someone without the essential aptitude will never achieve great proficiency. Countless generations of young lads went into their local industry without any choice of career, and ended up as highly skilled craftsmen with a tremendous knowledge and understanding of their craft - and took great pride and pleasure in a job well done.
There are always those who are naturally gifted but I do believe that most "ordinary" people, if trained well, can become proud and fulfilled craftsmen.
Perhaps this is down to the 10,000 hours, I don't know, but we should never give up on training youngsters in particular to become masters of their art.
Just my opinion, not wanting to start an argument!
Duncan

 

[Timothy White]

I have been trying to play the guitar since the Beatles came out. I still am not any good, but I have fun. My fingers just don't make that connection from my brain to play what my brain hears..... With turning, well, that was like swimming to a duck. Oh, I am an Oregon Duck too, but that is unrelated..... Maybe if I had 8 hours a day to play the guitar, I would get much better.... With some things, we just connect. With others, we never will.... We may get closer though.

robo hippy

IMNSHO there is no such thing as spiritual turning. Now that I have angered some of you I will attempt to elaborate.
There are only two types (kinds) of things in this world. Spiritual and Temporal. Temporal being the opposite of spiritual.
To give you an insight into my thinking we must go to the Bible.
Our Lord and Savior is approached by a Pharisee who who showed Christ a coin and asked “should I give this coin to the Temple or to the Roman tax collector“. Christ asked if he could see coin, he examined it and asked whose picture is on it? The Pharisee answered Caesar’s. The lord then told the Pharise, “ Give unto Cesar that which is Cesar’s and give unto the lord that which is the Lord’s“
Robo is correct when he says “With some things we just connect”
Cesar’s things are Temporal things that will pass away. But Spiritual things are of the Lord and will not pass away.
Odie: this one of many times that you have have introduced..
”Spiritual turning“ into this woodturners discussion forum. I was under the impression that discussing politics or religion was taboo on this forum.
I would also suggest that this and other (spiritual turning discussions” be moved to the off topic discussion forum.

 

[Brian Gustin]

”Spiritual turning“ into this woodturners discussion forum. I was under the impression that discussing politics or religion was taboo on this forum.
I would also suggest that this and other (spiritual turning discussions” be moved to the off topic discussion forum.

IMHO, Using the term "Spiritual" is quite correct:
spir·it·u·al
[ˈspirəCH(əw)əl]

ADJECTIVE

1. relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things:
   "I'm responsible for his spiritual welfare" · "the spiritual values of life"
   
   As Odie uses the term, it is closer to saying the "Zen" - that is spiritually in tune with what you are doing (Some folks find may find inner peace just working at the lathe, some find their peace by aiming for as close to perfection as possible, and so on) - In other words, Spiritual in this context has nothing to do with religion or politics...
   
   
   

 

[Darryn Achall]

There are only two types (kinds) of things in this world. Spiritual and Temporal. Temporal being the opposite of spiritual.
To give you an insight into my thinking we must go to the Bible.

You have mistaken religion for spirituality. About 2/3 of the people on this planet do not believe in the bible, yet many of them are quite spiritual. As Brian says, spiritual discussion need not have any relation to politics or religion.

 

[Timothy White]

Zen is a term that comes from Buddhism!
But of course Buddhism has nothing to do with religion.

 

[Timothy White]

Spiritualism is a belief in something not seen
My point is that there two types of things spiritual and temporal.
Temporal things are reality taste smell feel see hear Spiritual things are feelings emotions etc. whether one believes the Bible or not does not change the definition of spiritual or temporal. Believe what you like! But I repeat this Forum is not the place for religious discussions.

 

[Brian Gustin]

I Agree Odie, there is a certain amount of "Zen" to it sometimes
(And for those who'd argue- Zen defined as : ADJECTIVE INFORMAL peaceful and calm: "she is kind and relaxed with a very zen energy about her" So, nothing whatever to do with Religion either.
)
There are times, sometimes often, and sometimes not so often while turning (or other woodwork that I do) where I just feel like I have "hit the groove" and every cut goes exactly the way I envision it, every shaving of wood is the exact thickness desired, and my form is coming into being exactly as envisioned... right down to the point that it does not even need any sanding at all, the wood cut so much more smoothly that even a 1500 grit sandpaper could not improve on it. Those times for me are actually pretty rare, but they HAVE happened, and the pure pleasure and enjoyment of the achievement afterwards can last for hours... Which, in other words, is a spiritual experience by any definition... it just seems to soothe the soul....

 

[Darryn Achall]

Zen is a term that comes from Buddhism!
But of course Buddhism has nothing to do with religion.

(And for those who'd argue- Zen defined as :
ADJECTIVE INFORMAL
peaceful and calm: "she is kind and relaxed with a very zen energy about her"
So, nothing whatever to do with Religion either.

 

[Michael Anderson]

Timothy, spiritual ≠ religious. Yes, they are
related in some instances, but are also unrelated in other instances. Religion requires belief in a superhuman being, whereas spiritual is something that affects the human spirit. It’s as simple as that, and inarguable.

In this case, I see “spiritual” turning as a mindset where you’re truly in the zone. In some circles this could be classified as “flow state”, where you are singularly focused on the task at hand. Your mind does not wonder. In my experience, being in the flow state while turning is a spiritual experience. Partly due to the satisfaction of perfecting a skill, and partly due to the love of form, wood, tools, and everything else. Spiritual turning is a holistic enjoyment of the moment. Sometimes turning is frustratingly hard work, and sometimes it’s spiritual. It’s never religious.

 

[Lou Jacobs]

Boy, I never thought I’d comment on a thread like this, or at least jump into what this has evolved into. For you, Timothy, spiritual does equal religious. For many however, including Michael, Brian, Darren and others, they are completely separate concepts. I also find them separate. But I agree with at least part of what you’re suggesting: let’s keep religious debates away from here.

 

[Russ Braun]

The drive to create something is strong in all of us Bipeds. It is buried deep in the debris of one’s life experiences. It’s interesting to see it emanate in so many different ways/ outlets….I suppose, whatever catches one’s eye.

Could it be each of us screaming, “Hey, I’m in here”!!! It starts with Crayons writing on the walls of your room!

Spirituality? Absolutely, it’s our spirit that’s doing the screaming! Mastering your “outlet of choice” is absolutely personal! For Odie, it’s chasing the perfect cut, unleashing beautiful wood; for the clarinetist, it’s….

Time in the saddle creates mastery, mastery creates identity, identity creates inner peace and silences the screaming!!

Why?? This is one of those things I hope to discover at my transition from this part of my existence to the next!! Could it be we are all just trying to reconnect with our own soul??

Amazingly, I’m sober as well, haha!!

 

[Will Armstrong]

But I repeat this Forum is not the place for religious discussions.

Still a great discussion. Thanks for getting us rolling Odie- it has been fruitful. I found the interactions interesting with talk about perfectionism, soulfulness, spirituality and zen quite fulfilling and helpful. (Zen with a lower case z as in "Perhaps that is the zen of gardening—you become one with the plants, lost in the rhythm of the tasks at hand.")
I hate to speak up, but Timothy you were the first to even reference religion, the Bible, and Christ your Lord and Saviour. I'm sorry our spiritual discourse struck a nerve.

 

[Timothy White]

Religion requires belief in a superhuman being, whereas spiritual is something that affects the human spirit. It’s as simple as that, and inarguable

spiritual means things of the spirit
Humanism belief that humans are the perfection of evolution is a religion that doesn’t believe in the Super Natural. It is only one of many

hate to speak up, but Timothy you were the first to even reference religion, the Bible, and Christ your Lord and Saviour. I'm sorry our spiritual discourse struck a nerve.

Will: Don’t apologize. Odie brought this up when he first posted the idea of “Spiritual Turning”. As I read his posts (which mostly I enjoy) he has made his point. No need to beat a dead horse!
I don’t need anyone to “explain“ what Spiritual means, or what Odie means.
My point is that this thread won’t die because Odie won’t let it die.

Let’s talk about sharpening, bowl turning, flute shapes. Evolution of turning tools. Who makes the best lathes etc.

 

[Timothy White]

You have mistaken religion for spirituality. About 2/3 of the people on this planet do not believe in the bible, yet many of them are quite spiritual. As Brian says, spiritual discussion need not have any relation to politics or religion.

Since when is belief in the Bible a “requirement “ of religion. Buddhists Hindus, Muslims don’t believe in the Bible yet they are very Spiritual and religious.

 

[Odie]

I'm still here, and following along. What a great discussion this is turning out to be.....exactly as I originally intended.

As I mentioned earlier....."I'm ok, you're ok".....and, although I can't agree with everything said thus far, I do enjoy hearing everyone's take on this subject.

Carry on!.......

-o-

 

[Michael Anderson]

spiritual means things of the spirit
Humanism belief that humans are the perfection of evolution is a religion that doesn’t believe in the Super Natural. It is only one of many

Thanks for the engagement, and I didn’t mean any disrespect. Right, spiritual means things of the spirit, lowercase “s”. Not the Spirit, capital S. And I would argue that humanism is not a religion (it’s an alternative to religion), but rather a movement or a philosophy. That said, I agree with you that I’d rather be talking about tools and flutes and forms

 

[Timothy White]

Thanks for the engagement, and I didn’t mean any disrespect. Right, spiritual means things of the spirit, lowercase “s”. Not the Spirit, capital S. And I would argue that humanism is not a religion (it’s an alternative to religion), but rather a movement or a philosophy. That said, I agree with you that I’d rather be talking about tools and flutes and forms

“It’s times like this that I thank God that I’m an atheist“ Michael Stivic
All in the family

 

[Odie]

I suppose I should make a statement here. I'm getting the distinct feeling some people are associating "spiritual turning" with religious beliefs. When I mention spiritual turning, it has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with a connection that person has inherited from within their own individual soul. Now, if some believe a person can't have a soul, unless some religious beliefs are a part of the makeup of a soul.....that would be a discussion for some other forum.....not here.....

My beliefs are more in tune with those who speak of "in the zone", or "the Zen of turning", and nothing to do with my religious beliefs.

-o-

 

[Doug Agee]

I like this thread, Odie. I have found great joy in fly and tenkara fishing. I am growing my skill to find this in turning too. What I like to call this experience of finding the joy in the persuit, when everything is clicking and my mind is clear and focused solely on the task, is the flow state. Not my term, but for me the flow state is about being completely in the moment and feeling the happiness that we all want. In fishing, it is not always catching. Sometimes it is gratitude and being fully in the moment of the places I get to be. We are lucky to be able to turn wood, lucky to have this community, and lucky to share different opinions and experiences.

 

[Darryn Achall]

It seems that being caught up in the present moment is a big part of the joy. I find that you can be very present and have gratitude in many ways, one of them being the pursuit of a craft or art. I have found moments of similarity while out in the jungle, standing on a corner observing the downtown of a large city, playing a flute, or from many types of sports. Maybe being very present to the current circumstances is a key element.

 

[Larry Mercier]

.. "time in the saddle" plus sheer determination to overcome the long term "trial and error" process, then exceptional results are possible

(That's my bit of woodturning philosophy for today.....and, if you disagree with that, or otherwise wish to comment.....then I invite you to respond....)

Odie, I love your Philosophy. When I started out I bought so many gouges and scrapers, many that I haven't used in years, As time passed I realized that it was not the tool but the user of that tool that made a more refined project.

 

[Larry Mercier]

Tim, are there also only two colors-black and white? Odie is trying to get us thinking about how we approach the piece of wood we have in front of us. Although I don't play golf, 1 want to use golf as a mental image: before the golfer drives the ball, he/she addresses the ball. What the turner Odie gives us is the turner's addressing the wood as an equivalent to the golfer addressing the ball.

My point is that there two types of things spiritual and temporal.

 

[Larry Mercier]

Doug, You wrote eloquently on the joys of acquiring skills on the way to being a better . . . .

We are lucky to be able to turn wood, lucky to have this community, and lucky to share different opinions and experiences.

 

[Neil S]

I guess I'm somewhere past the 10,000 hrs to get to mastery and it is a long time since I had to consciously have my technique front of mind when turning. When I'm turning my focus is not so much on what I'm doing or trying to achieve but more on what the wood is saying to me. I'm searching for the inner nature of the wood and what form it might take. Every piece that goes to the gallery has on its ticket the following wording...

Beautiful pieces of wood that guide me
in what form they might take
in their new life beyond the living tree​

I have been quite influenced by George Nakashima and his book 'The Soul of a Tree', so for me the spiritual aspect of turning is not coming out of me but rather comes from the wood. It's more about a reverence for the inner nature of the wood than anything going on inside of me.

 

[Paul May]

.....watched a great athlete, singer, dancer, artist, etc....do what they do, and tell yourself you can do that?

The same thing applies with getting the perfect cut on difficult wood....a cut that requires the bare minimum of fine sanding by hand....a cut that eliminates the need for any power sanding at all. We can be told everything we need to know about it......but, if there is a lack of something special within the soul that "brings it all together", we will never achieve it......even if we throw lots of money at it! If we are fortunate enough to possess the necessary soulful elements......we still won't "get it", not without great amounts of practice and experimentation. If the "silver bullet" is within the soul and that rare element is added to "time in the saddle" plus sheer determination to overcome the long term "trial and error" process, then exceptional results are possible.....but there is nothing in life that is a certainty!

(That's my bit of woodturning philosophy for today.....and, if you disagree with that, or otherwise wish to comment.....then I invite you to respond....)

-o-

After being away from working wood for two years, it has taken several sessions in the shop to relearn old practices in order to get in the "zone" again. It was frustrating at first but now I am getting more relaxed and thoughtful about what I am doing and am having fun again.