How do we evaluate the usefulness of web information

[hockenbery]

There is a wealth of information on forums, YouTube, and websites on woodturning including the AAW site with many publications ( Fundamentals, go for a spin, safety, past journals...)
Most of the information is good some of it bad and dangerous to replicate.

How do we decide what is valuable? Trying everything is not practical and can be dangerous.

AAW publications are reliable because each is reviewed by the Editor and proof readers who are experienced woodturners and they occasionally conduct a formal peer reviews on complex articles.

On forums and individual web sites one tool I use is to google the authors.
Most quality turners have a web presence from demos at clubs and symposiums, written articles, art shows, classes ...

If I google frequent forum contributors such as "John Lucas woodturner" or "Steve Worcester woodturner" I get pages of hits.
Reading the links convinces me these individuals are known and respected by their woodturning peers.

I don't always agree with John and Steve. I may have a "better technique" for me, but I am confident that whatever they post will work.

I am now left with how to evaluate posts by authors with no hits. Many new and exciting ideas come from new turners who "don't know any better".
I am amazed at how much I learn from students.
The web search gives us a useful perspective. If the only hit is the individual's web site I make a note of that.

Who ya gonna trust?

 

[Mark Mandell]

Provenences

"But I read it on the Internet" has become a cliche excuse when things go badly. Murphy and Cohen aside, I suggest we need consider the topic being written about and how it is written. When reviewing a woodturning post, I think it's important to focus on what's being discussed. Is it: A tool? A lathe? A finish? A method? Some of those topics can foster opinions as well as actual tested procedures, and the careful reader needs to be able to distinguish expressed personal preferences or style from statements of a factual nature that can be confirmed with some more digging. Does the author "speak" in absolutes or are caveats and qualifying language used? Are we being asked to reply and take things at face value or is the suggestion made to investigate further and confirm the proffered information for ourselves? Internet "trolls" abound, and wordworking and woodturning forums and chatrooms are not immune from having disinformation posted for one effect or another by people who will never take responsibility for their actions. "Would you buy a used car from this guy" may be a severe test, but the old saw of "let the buyer beware" should probably be taped to the frame of our computer screens.

PS: Thanks for bringing up this topic, Al. Its important for posters and readers here, and equally important for the AAW, as information and reliance on what and how things are posted here can have a direct impact on the AAW.

 

[Mark Wollschlager]

So, if you limit the current question to woodturning it make things a little easier.
But in the long run the same question and answers apply to pretty much any "how do I" or "This is how you" scenario.
There is no Snopes.com for woodturning.
Relying upon post counts or number of google hits is a first step.
Some of the time that is more a measure of a willingness to comment. About anything.
Some folks are subject matter experts ( SME's )about a wide range of turning related topics.
Some folks have a more limited scope of knowledge. But still comment on anything.

Anyhow, at first glance I measure most responses by my experiences ( do they match with what I am familiar? )
If what I read is suggesting a path or solution I find far fetched, I may do more research. Wait for other responses to see where they fall in the believability spectrum. Or just move on.

I am not the kind of guy to call people out, unless I can state with certainty that what they are presenting is dangerous

For someone with little of no experience woodturning, that may be a problem.

Al, you do a great job of pointing people who are seeking answers to their local SME ( class, club, mentor )
In my opinion that cannot be emphasized enough.
Steering inquiring minds away from the internet to a more hands on method should be the goal.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Good topic, Al. Some things have a variety of "correct" answers. Some things are simply a matter of preference. A few things are black/white or right/wrong. Most things seem to fall in the degrees of "goodness" bucket. When I was in the Army, I learned there was three ways to do everything: the right way, the wrong way, and the Army way. I have always been an inquisitive kind of person and tried to figure out what makes things "tick". My paternal grandmother proclaimed that I would become an engineer (at least that is how I interpreted what she said in Czech) when I disassembled her alarm clock. For better or worse, that was a landmark event sealing my fate.

 

[Mark Mandell]

My paternal grandmother proclaimed that I would become an engineer (at least that is how I interpreted what she said in Czech) when I disassembled her alarm clock.

Ha! My grandmother predicted that I'd either be a grease monkey or an artist after I took the steering wheel off my mother's '53 New Yorker, painted it deep candy apple metal flake, and reinstalled it. (Took me a second try to get the horn working again). Gram loved it. Mom was pissed.

 

[hockenbery]

Good topic, Al. Some things have a variety of "correct" answers. Some things are simply a matter of preference. A few things are black/white or right/wrong. Most things seem to fall in the degrees of "goodness" bucket. When I was in the Army, I learned there was three ways to do everything: the right way, the wrong way, and the Army way. I have always been an inquisitive kind of person and tried to figure out what makes things "tick". My paternal grandmother proclaimed that I would become an engineer (at least that is how I interpreted what she said in Czech) when I disassembled her alarm clock. For better or worse, that was a landmark event sealing my fate.

Bill in most aspects of woodturning there are trade offs, multiple effective tools, and a variety of intermediate steps to accomplish the same goal.
I can pretty much turn any outside shape with a 1/2" bowl gouge and 3/8 spindle gouge. They may not be the best tools for every person or even the tools I would choose for every object I turn.

An old saw: When the only tool you have is a hammer all the problems start looking like nails.
I like to have as many woodturning tools in my kit as a I can remember.

Have you fixed the clock yet?

Al

 

[john lucas]

Interesting topic. To relate better to this I'll relate my experience deciding on my prostate cancer treatment. As a woodturner, I first went to the web (after listening to my biased urologist). It's very much like searching for turning info. There's a lot there but you know little about the author. When you find an author you have to try to learn their background because they all seem to favor their specialty.

Consequently, I found my best resource was people who had been through the process You got clear answers a d could ask pointed questions. Very much like our suggestion to seek out local clubs so Al's suggestion of googling the author is a sound one.

 

[Bill Boehme]

......Have you fixed the clock yet?

Al

Well, before the time was never quite right. Afterwards, it was always exactly right two times a day. So, yes it was better. Some of the little gears never were found. Apparently they were superfluous.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

I like the proper way to sharpen.......go to 4 different rotations, get four different answers.....just got to find something that works for you, and then you can tell everyone you know and definitely post it on the internet, because I do it that way so its got to be great.........yeah, I like everyone has an opinion.....takes a while to know who to listen to

 

[Odie]

Then......there are those who seek notoriety.

They can be found in a search. There is plenty of bad information out there, and there are plenty of turners who cling to bad information because they believe........

(This is not to deny there is also good information to be found.......Of course there is.)

Then there are those who only wish to discuss, because knowing the results they get from experience cannot be known by others.....it's strictly a personal observation of self performance that can't be comprehended by anyone but one's self. Photos are an observable indicator of how that self performance can be communicated to the observer in a way that is sometimes more meaningful than words can express. Some people make it difficult to see their work.....that is an indicator, but left up to the reader of this post to connect the dots as to why that is.

I discuss, because it gives me resolve in my own pursuits......and, it makes me have a better understanding of why I have the beliefs I do. You have to touch all the bases before you score a run......and, hindsight is the best way to know how you got to 1st base, 2nd base, and 3rd base. I'm one of those who could care less if I ever have any name recognition, because that isn't my objective at all. My performance at my lathe is the only thing that matters to me.

ooc

 

[hockenbery]

The fundamental concept of the AAW is the furthering of woodturning education.
Among our members and the general public.

This forum is one small way in which members and the public can interact and exchange ideas.
Posters take the role of students and teachers and some mixture of both.

The AAW created local chapters as an environment for turners to interact face to face more frequently than the once a year symposium.
The local chapters are one of the strongest components of AAW and many of the chapters have created regional symposiums.
A few AAW volunteers created this forum and our moderators continue to make it an environment for learning and teaching.

As Odie points out a few participants are here to neither learn nor teach.
I learn a lot form this forum.

 

[Odie]

The fundamental concept of the AAW is the furthering of woodturning education.
Among our members and the general public.

This forum is one small way in which members and the public can interact and exchange ideas.
Posters take the role of students and teachers and some mixture of both.

The AAW created local chapters as an environment for turners to interact face to face more frequently than the once a year symposium.
The local chapters are one of the strongest components of AAW and many of the chapters have created regional symposiums.
A few AAW volunteers created this forum and our moderators continue to make it an environment for learning and teaching.

As Odie points out a few participants are here to neither learn nor teach.
I learn a lot form this forum.

I also learn from this forum, and it is the only reason I'm here. I have experimented with many turning ideas and concepts since first coming to this forum.......and I have learned to agree, disagree, and modify these basic principles to conform to my own ideas of what I think is acceptable for what I consider the best results.....for MY turning.

For instance, input from this forum has inspired me to experiment with many different ways of sharpening, grind profiles, presentation methods. I probably do all these things differently than the great majority of turners, but it's input from others that has motivated me to try other things that have been successful for them.......and, I've taken their methods, and combined them with my thoughts/methods to a conclusion I consider to be another level entirely.

I've gotten rid of my belt changing, and added VS drive, as well as upgraded to a slow speed grinder......these two things have been an immense help to me in my lathe turning evolution, and probably wouldn't have done these two major things if someone else hadn't convinced me to try them. There have actually been many things that have changed as a result of input from others on this forum.

One thing those who are reading this should know about me, is I turned for about 25 years, without any communication from any other turners at all, until the day I joined this AAW forum. There have been many things that I've developed on my own, because I was all I had, and I was the only one I could turn to.......except a few commercial videos and books on the subject. (I will always be eternally grateful that I did it this way, rather than classes, club activities, and mentors.) I am also grateful that I did finally communicate with other turners, because I am a better turner expressly because of it......but I would never trade those early days of complete solitude, self-reliance, and finding all my own discoveries......those will always be very special to me in my total evolution.

To this day, no other turner has ever set foot in my shop....if they did, they would discover that my shop and methods are very different than what's being taught.

Yes, I learn because of this AAW forum.......but, I also have traveled a very different path getting here than the majority who learn by the accepted/approved thinking and methods.

I will be an eternal student of the subject of woodturning, but I will never be an instructor.......because I'm only concerned about my unknown final destinations, and don't really care what, or how others manage their own evolution.

ooc

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Who do you trust?

I agree with most comments here on the value of this forum. I do think we have strayed from the intent (my perceived) of the original post that Al put in . Who do you trust when you tube has people using a tractor to turn wood ( even have a M.D. in my club who has done this, not recommended ) ? Or the guy using a car battery charger to charge a rechargeable battery. How do the beginners know the knowledgeable sounding guy in the video is doing something not obviously dangerous?
I think the answer is responsible sites like AAW and other good sites where the knowledge is in abundance to t=correct the totally off base responses. Always do love the fact that someone here has the answer.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Gerald , I think what you say about beginners is true based on what I have seen on some forums such as Woodworkingtalk.com and woodmagazine.com where most of the participants are fairly new to the hobby.

 

[Larry Mercier]

I agree with Gerald. I am confident that sites of AAW, Cap'n Eddie and Cindy Drozda are full of good turning tips. I am very cautious of other sites. cynicism is preferable to injury. If a site raises hair on the back of my neck, I move on.
Have fun. Stay safe. Use common sense.
Larry

 

[Monty Ivy]

At least part of your personal learning using material from various media sources is your ability to evaluate that information and compartmentalize it...hang a pearl of knowledge on a hook for later use.

When viewing a video I look at things like workspace and tooling. It's pretty easy to spot an newbie and decide if the information might or might not be valuable. Then I look at technique and skill using a tool and it becomes pretty obvious if there is something that I can glean from it or if I'm just wasting my time. When I find a source that is at least or preferably above my skill level then I'm at a place where I might learn something.

 

[Roger Wiegand]

I find it to be much the same as reading the scientific literature:

Does it pass the "does this make any sense?" test?
If it's too good to be true, it probably isn't.
Has the author said things you know to be wrong in the past; if so, how did they deal with it?
Has there been any peer review?
Is it likely to kill me if I do what they say?
Most importantly, has anyone independently replicated the result?

If it passes those tests then it becomes a risk/reward question of whether it's worth trying to replicate the result yourself. If there's no compelling advantage, why bother? If it would make your life dramatically easier, but requires six months of your time and a $100K investment you really have to think about it. If the test is easy and you can see the benefit, then give it a shot.

As an example, the introduction of the 40/40 grind for a bowl gouge years ago. At first it really seemed to fail the "too good to be true" test. After a while a couple different people reported similar results. But it required time and money to test, either buying a new gouge or reshaping one that already worked well for me. There was a possible payoff in being able to rough big logs without getting the tar beaten out of me quite as badly. Who can resist the need for a new tool? So I tried it, found that it was not a panacea, but did indeed work much better for me in working big bowl blanks, so I added it to my permanent repertoire of tools and techniques. Haven't made a youtube video though.

 

[Brian Gustin]

When viewing a video I look at things like workspace and tooling. It's pretty easy to spot an newbie and decide if the information might or might not be valuable.

Not necessarily the case. I have seen some very useful videos from old pros (Richard Raffan comes to mind) based in shops that are not really all that much cleaner or more organized (though obviously well used) , and then I have seen some where their shop is highly professional and clean, well-lit, almost to the point of being a woodcraft showroom (maybe it IS?) where the "instructor" is , to put it politely, "full of it", and if I had not known better, could have sent me down an expensive (and mostly useless) rabbit hole... so I don't "judge a book by its cover" and take any given video with a grain of salt (that's where having a good grasp of critical thinking process comes in handy, some things just have a smell to them, so to speak... pretty much as described by Roger W above. )