Is this a spear-point, or something else?

[Jamie Straw]

This tool jumped into my lap today, in a set of vintage Rockwell tools, price was right for "messing around with" tools. I don't know for sure what this is, and definitely don't know how to use it -- although, it seems I've seen one in a video somewhere. Tips appreciated. It comes from a vintage Rockwell set like this one, only all eight are there. Interesting how shallow yet very long the flutes are, and how they're ground. I touched one to the grinder and I think they're HHS. Not the quality of today's HSS perhaps, but still. Anyway, here are a couple of pictures. Flat on top, 2 bevels on the bottom that meet in a spear-point shape.

 

[john lucas]

they are interesting tools. It is what is called a spear point. Most people used it purely as a scraper. Especially handy for turning beads because the tip would reach in a little further. However in the right hands it's a really cool tool. My friend who was a production turner in Pidgeon forge Tn. used it like I use the toe of a skew. He would use the flat side as the bevel and cut the bottom of goblets or to clean up the shoulder on the pommels on table legs. Now a new version has come along made by Keith Thompkins. It has the same top profile but the bottom has a different grind and you do use his tool as a skew. You can push cut with it, pull, cut, roll beads and you can start a cut off the wood which is very dangerous with a skew but works quite easily with his tool. I believe he calls it the Vskew. A remarkable and unique tool. Oh and you can use it as a scraper if you really want to but it works so much better as a cutting too.

 

[Jamie Straw]

Great cuts!

I haven't tried to use it yet, but I thought maybe it was good for beads, something I can use for sure. I tried out the 2 skews and the parting tool pretty much right out of the box -- just touched the skews up with a diamond card hone. They cut really nicely! The small gouge is tricky, I'll post a picture of it later -- not much room for error. Will have to find some video for the bead turning, it's out there somewhere. Or tomorrow when I've had some sleep, just give it a try...or tries.

 

[Jamie Straw]

A spear-point fan! Spindle pics

they are interesting tools. It is what is called a spear point. [snip]

I like it! It wasn't as sharp as the other tools, so I touched it up on the grinder (with lots of rehearsal, and only using the "almost spun down" speed of the grinder), and then tried a few beads on Alder spindle stock already mounted in the lathe. I think it'll be a fun tool. Just hope I can replace it when it's worn down to a stub.

Here are photos of the 1/4" spindle gouge. There are also 1/2" and 3/4", all ground the same way. I'll need some tutoring to use them methinks.

 

[Odie]

Jamie......

You can also use the spear point as a detail groove tool. That's the sole purpose for which I use it. The one you're showing us looks like the two bevels are ground closer to 45°, and mine are closer to 75°. With the steeper angle, it's my opinion that the burr lasts a little longer, although no burr on a scraper grind lasts very long anyway, but certainly can be improved upon.

The cut is done with a long lasting straight-in push cut.....the longer the time element, the better, and you must have a steady hand to do it without resulting in a torn grain. The groove itself may take 20 seconds, or more to do, and you're slicing off extremely fine shavings while doing it. If your eye and hands are practiced in the technique, the groove cut can also be made with the very tip of the spear point alternating from one side to the other. That way it's similar to a barb on a parting tool, where the wood fibers at the very tip of the cut are momentarily supported by the waste just prior to being thrown clear.....resulting in a cleaner cut.

None of this will result in any degree of success, unless the bowl geometry is within about .020", or less. The more perfect the geometry, the better looking the detail groove will be. Less than .007" runout gives the best looking detail groove, but if it's closer to .020", the frontal angle of the spear point can be reduced, so the cut can go deeper without going wider than if the angle were more obtuse.

ko

 

[Jamie Straw]

Jamie......

You can also use the spear point as a detail groove tool. That's the sole purpose for which I use it. The one you're showing us looks like the two bevels are ground closer to 45°, and mine are closer to 75°. With the steeper angle, it's my opinion that the burr lasts a little longer, although no burr on a scraper grind lasts very long anyway, but certainly can be improved upon.

[snip]

None of this will result in any degree of success, unless the bowl geometry is within about .020", or less. The more perfect the geometry, the better looking the detail groove will be. Less than .007" runout gives the best looking detail groove, but if it's closer to .020", the frontal angle of the spear point can be reduced, so the cut can go deeper without going wider than if the angle were more obtuse.

ko

Odie, thanks for explaining this use and technique. I've read your post a couple of times, but it'll be awhile before I'm to the point of executing. Not sure when I'll have that degree of perfection in geometry. BEVELS: not sure which angles you're referring to, but if I check the angle going from one bevel to the other (the way you would a skew chisel, both bevels included) I get 72 degrees. The picture I took may make it look blockier. The longitudinal bevel is about 24 degrees. I made drawings and careful measurements in case I trash it on the grinder, LOL.

 

[john lucas]

The angles of the traditional V shaped scrapers aren't critical at all. It's a stick it in the wood kind of scraper action so it really doesn't matter much. In use for detail work like Odie is suggesting it works very my like the skew on it's side. The 3 point tool or pyramid tool is sort of a take off of the V scraper. If your not familiar with that tool instead of a top and bottom it is a round tool with 3 sided ground to a point so it looks like a 3 sided pyramid. In use it's very much like a scraper and is quite handy for turning beads. With that tool you push the tool straight in forming the side of the bead, and then pull it out while moving the handle left or right to form the curve of the bead.
As I mentioned before Keith's V skew looks similar on top but more highly polished with no burr. The bottom is ground sort of like yours but with a much sharper angle and has a 2 slight curves coming up to a point. A very unique tool. Works like a V scraper as well as a skew but is a little easier to roll beads.
http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Mer...creen=PROD&Product_Code=100031&Category_Code=

 

[Jamie Straw]

Got one!

The 3 point tool or pyramid tool is sort of a take off of the V scraper. If your not familiar with that tool instead of a top and bottom it is a round tool with 3 sided ground to a point so it looks like a 3 sided pyramid. In use it's very much like a scraper and is quite handy for turning beads. With that tool you push the tool straight in forming the side of the bead, and then pull it out while moving the handle left or right to form the curve of the bead.

I'm gonna get familiar soon, John. See this thread. A mystery tool in that one also. Thanks for info on the V-skew, will take a look.

 

[robo hippy]

Richard Raffen had a signature spear point scraper that he sold through Craft Supplies. Not sure if he still sells it there or not. 1/4 thick, maybe an inch wide, spear was swept back maybe 2 inches on both sides. The point was good for detail lines, and the wings/sides were good for high angle shear scrapes. The edges of the tool were rounded over on the bottom for working up on the edge. I actually turned it into a negative rake scraper. Yours could be a variation on that, or one of the V skews, but that depends mostly on how you want to use it. If you don't like it as is, you can always reshape it.....

robo hippy

 

[Jamie Straw]

Lofstrom Spear-point article

I stumbled on this PDF article from Eric Lofstrom about spear-points -- didn't show up in a search, oddly enough, not sure how I got to it, but here's the shortcut: http://www.ericlofstrom.com/files/Lofstrom-_Eric-_Spear_Point_Scraper.pdf He classifies them as scrapers, a somewhat limited view perhaps.

 

[john lucas]

YOu'll notice his spearpoint has much longer grinds than yours. There have been a couple of similar spear point scrapers designed to be used as shear scrapers which is what he's doing in the photo. In fact someone (I think Ray Key but may be wrong) made one designed to be a left hand and right hand shear scraper. When doing hollow vessels you would use one side for the lower half and the other side for the upper half. I actually made 2 scrapers at one time, one for the lower half and one for the upper half. The had opposite angles ground on the cutting end. If you held them together you would have what looks like spear point. I have a John Jordan shear scraper and is just one tool but has one angle on one end of the cutting tool and the other angle on the other end, for either left or right shear cutting.

Most of the spearpoint tools that came with early kits had really short grinds and the tool was only about 3/4" wide. there were mostly used flat on the tool rest as standard scrapers.