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Is this the future

Pete Blair

Pete Blair

Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
185
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27
Location
Ladner British Columbia
Website
woodbowlsandthings.wordpress.com
Is this the future of woodturning?
I know that Trent Bosch is also marketing a similar product but just wonder what you all think.
For me the joy is in the spinning of wood and the hands-on feel. It would seem to me that this type of system would work really well for production turning but for a lot of us it might just take a lot of the fun out of my favourite pastime.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVpp9zHTXEE (sorry!!)
 
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It just another evolution of the captured bar rigs. I remember this same discussion when they came out. When I switched from hollowing tool to captured rig I gave up some fluid movements at the beginning but my shoulder now thanks me. It took a lot of physical stress away. Then I got the laser which really sped up my turning of thin wall vessels. Didnt have to stop and measure as frequently. Still had to stop a d adjust the laser fairly often to keep the measurement perpindicular to the vessel wall. The new camera system eliminates this. Of course it won't be long before some are using CNC controlled cutters on the lathe
 
CutterVision

Went to the JT web site and it shows the product and says it in now available. But I cannot find a price or a place to order it.
 
Don't see how it's paint by numbers. You still design and turn the vessels. This just takes some of the stress out of the process
 
Pretty cool......but, won't ever replace the true artistic craftsman.

It will, however, mean that more people will be more successful in completing turnings under some useful, but limited perimeters. There will still be a bridge between what is technologically possible, and individual creativity.....a bridge that won't be crossed without a "spiritual" component.

Technology is getting closer to replacing the "the human element", but it will never, IMHO, cross that threshold.


ko
 
It is another evolution in technology.
A step up from the laser pointer.

It is a tool to use in hollow turning.
Keep,in mind the most important element of a hollow form is the form.
Second ,oust important is the surface.
The even wall is needed to allow successful drying if the wet wood.

A
 
I sat through there demo at the Georgia symposium. There are a lot more unique features of the system that you can change to fit your needs. Wish I could remember what all they were. Most were custom things you could do to make the lines around the cutter different sizes or different colors to make them easier to see for your particular vessel. there was something about changing the line size if I remember correctly so you could get more accuracy for really thin walls. Pretty cool system. Not inexpensive but a very good system.
 
To me

hockenbery said:
It is another evolution in technology.
A step up from the laser pointer.

It is a tool to use in hollow turning.
Keep,in mind the most important element of a hollow form is the form.
Second ,oust important is the surface.
The even wall is needed to allow successful drying if the wet wood.

A
Click to expand...
To me the more interesting function is the duplication function. I agree with you about he form. What I wonder is where we go from here . . .
 
I am not a fan of new technology, but I can see how it would be very useful for repetitive spindle turnings on furniture. I expect any day now, lathes will have CNC with cutters from above that reproduce ....
 
I am simply amazed by woodturners striving for the ultimate perfection, while that does not command the artist.
 
charlie knighton said:
I am simply amazed by woodturners striving for the ultimate perfection, while that does not command the artist.
Click to expand...

Exactly right, Charlie......

Another thing that occurred to me is a turner can only look at one thing at a time with any level of concentration......so, what will the operator of this computerized "vision" be concerned with? It will either be on the turning itself, or the computer screen. If it's alternating from one to the other, then neither focal point will have the level of concentration as a single point is capable of.....



ko
 
It’s just another tool, a very sophisticated tool, like a high-tech comparator a visual aid. I can imagine early wood turners lamenting about the herd mentality of those that went to using motors to power their lathes. I don’t think this new tool will stifle creativity or remove the human element. It might even expand creative possibilities. As for the human element, I have a laser for hollowing, but I can still ruin a piece if I’m careless or make a mistake.

I think people have always been resistant to change. My wife an avid seamstress, was wondering when the treadle sewing machine was made, so I Googled the history of the sewing machine. I think it was a Frenchman that made the first successful sewing machine. His success didn’t last too long because the area tailors burnt his factory down out of fear that they would be but out of a job. Now most clothes are made with machines. Yet quilts hand made by computerized sewing machines are still works of art.
 
James Seyfried said:
It’s just another tool, a very sophisticated tool, like a high-tech comparator a visual aid. I can imagine early wood turners lamenting about the herd mentality of those that went to using motors to power their lathes. I don’t think this new tool will stifle creativity or remove the human element. It might even expand creative possibilities. As for the human element, I have a laser for hollowing, but I can still ruin a piece if I’m careless or make a mistake.

I think people have always been resistant to change. My wife an avid seamstress, was wondering when the treadle sewing machine was made, so I Googled the history of the sewing machine. I think it was a Frenchman that made the first successful sewing machine. His success didn’t last too long because the area tailors burnt his factory down out of fear that they would be but out of a job. Now most clothes are made with machines. Yet quilts hand made by computerized sewing machines are still works of art.
Click to expand...

Heh,heh,heh......James, I think you have a misconception about "herd mentality"! Actually it would be those turners who didn't want to see a change to motorized lathes who had it.....not those who sought change, or other alternative ways of accomplishing a goal. The "herd" only sees the established ways of doing things as "the" proper, or best way. Because of that, they are wearing "blinders" to the existence of that which is outside of their "known world".

Other than that, I can agree with your reasoning in your post, as I think you meant it.

Now, if you took my meaning to think I deny that there is, or can be a use for the computer in this invention, I believe that would be a misconception, as well. Although this is something I don't see a benefit for my own use, I do see it as something that will open doors for some other turners.

My main point, as was Charlies's point.......is that the use of technology isn't going to replace creative inspiration, but for some, it may enhance an initial creativity that can only begin with the human element.

ko
 
Michelle Rich said:
I am not a fan of new technology, but I can see how it would be very useful for repetitive spindle turnings on furniture. I expect any day now, lathes will have CNC with cutters from above that reproduce ....
Click to expand...

Ditto on the repetitive spindle turnings.....

Michelle......it would be very possible to produce a CNC wood lathe with computerized control of the cutters, but I feel it would be nearly an impossibility to get a machine to find the best presentation to produce the finest cut. What is possible is to have a CNC wood lathe that could direct tools that could "plunge" shape a turned object.

To my thinking, the only way to find that best cut is through our very human sense of feel, hearing, and sight.....and machines don't have these senses with anywhere near the acuity as we do......

ko
 
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I question its utility for duplication.

First, as Odie implies, alternating focus between the screen and the workpiece is a distraction.
Second, for a long workpiece, the single camera location will have serious errors in alignment on either side of the camera location.

Better to use a "parallax jig" which you can Google. This consists of two patterns (one drawn, and the other cut out and offset) showing the profile, on the far side of the lathe. The workpiece and the patterns contain identical end tenons to establish alignment in setting up. In use, you eyeball past the workpiece to observe remaining need for cutting. When all three (the workpiece and both patterns) agree, you're done. And it encourages slicing cuts for a better finish than scraping intricate profiles. A whole lot less expensive too.

Joe
 
odie said:
Ditto on the repetitive spindle turnings.....

Michelle......it would be very possible to produce a CNC wood lathe with computerized control of the cutters, but I feel it would be nearly an impossibility to get a machine to find the best presentation to produce the finest cut. What is possible is to have a CNC wood lathe that could direct tools that could "plunge" shape a turned object.

To my thinking, the only way to find that best cut is through our very human sense of feel, hearing, and sight.....and machines don't have these senses with anywhere near the acuity as we do......

ko
Click to expand...

Something like this? CNC wood lathe
 
odie said:
My main point, as was Charlies's point.......is that the use of technology isn't going to replace creative inspiration, but for some, it may enhance an initial creativity that can only begin with the human element.

ko
Click to expand...

I agree! People are still making wood art with bow lathes and people will make wood art with technology that we can't even imagine. It's not the technology, it is the creativity and skill of the person that makes it art (or even a nice functional item).
 
James Seyfried said:
Something like this? CNC wood lathe
Click to expand...

Yep, something like that, James. :D

I see this is similar to a router in operation. From the appearance of the close-up, the vertical bit spins in the same direction whether going uphill, or downhill with the cut with respect to the grain. I'd be willing to bet good money that it's going to take more sanding than a surface a skilled turner will leave with expert use of traditional tools......but, I suppose the sanding can also be automated! On second thought, it could be done with a two position rotating head, where there is alternating clockwise and counterclockwise bits. It could be programmed to work that way......but this one doesn't appear to be set up like that.

James Seyfried said:
I agree! People are still making wood art with bow lathes and people will make wood art with technology that we can't even imagine. It's not the technology, it is the creativity and skill of the person that makes it art (or even a nice functional item).
Click to expand...

A skilled "hands on" craftsman/artisan isn't in jeopardy by technology. A few will find technology beneficial to their creativity, but I don't believe technology will ever replace the human element.......

Joe Greiner said:
I question its utility for duplication.

First, as Odie implies, alternating focus between the screen and the workpiece is a distraction.
Second, for a long workpiece, the single camera location will have serious errors in alignment on either side of the camera location.

Better to use a "parallax jig" which you can Google. This consists of two patterns (one drawn, and the other cut out and offset) showing the profile, on the far side of the lathe. The workpiece and the patterns contain identical end tenons to establish alignment in setting up. In use, you eyeball past the workpiece to observe remaining need for cutting. When all three (the workpiece and both patterns) agree, you're done. And it encourages slicing cuts for a better finish than scraping intricate profiles. A whole lot less expensive too.

Joe
Click to expand...

(see highlighted above)

This is a point I hadn't considered, Joe........and, it's a point that is very relevant to the discussion here. Thanks for pointing this out.

No matter what the length of the profile....short or long, this misalignment is going to have it's effect on duplication to exact standards. There is a built in error factor with it.:(

ko
 
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Well actually Louisville slugger has been making bats for a long time with CNC lathes. So have other companies that make chair and furniture parts. It can be done with minimum sanding. What is new is the prices are coming down so you and I could afford it if needed.
 
odie said:
Exactly right, Charlie......

Another thing that occurred to me is a turner can only look at one thing at a time with any level of concentration......so, what will the operator of this computerized "vision" be concerned with? It will either be on the turning itself, or the computer screen. If it's alternating from one to the other, then neither focal point will have the level of concentration as a single point is capable of.....



ko
Click to expand...

You get used to it. A prime example is arthroscopic surgery. Triangulation with hands and instruments while looking at a monitor. Gretch
 
Joe Greiner said:
I question its utility for duplication.

First, as Odie implies, alternating focus between the screen and the workpiece is a distraction.
Second, for a long workpiece, the single camera location will have serious errors in alignment on either side of the camera location. ...
Joe
Click to expand...

Gretch Flo said:
You get used to it. A prime example is arthroscopic surgery. Triangulation with hands and instruments while looking at a monitor. Gretch
Click to expand...

I see something like this eventually moving towards a HUD or Google Glass interface. Rik.
 
Gretch Flo said:
You get used to it. A prime example is arthroscopic surgery. Triangulation with hands and instruments while looking at a monitor. Gretch
Click to expand...

Hadn't considered that, Gretch.

I'm only vaguely aware of this surgery while looking at a computer monitor. Offhand, it does seem to directly apply to the discussion.

thanks

ko
 
There's really nothing to watch when hollow turning, its not hard to watch something else-I used to watch soaps while turning, but now its easy to listen to good music. There's no reason for these setups to reduce anyone's artistic vision-the piece is already shaped. I won't make the piece any better, but probably would make the process a bit more sure and maybe quicker for some. My friend Dan Bailey called the other day and said he had been using Trent's, who lives nearby, and he was having a great time using it. He's an extremely good, and imaginative turner who doesn't sell work, nor need help making hollow vessels. Trent's is simpler and no computerized. Rather than thinking of it just as a labor saver or copier, or unnecessary, think of it as allowing for possibilities for new work that might be different.

And don't forget, one still has to do all the things right using the camera rig that I do without it. It just makes it easier to measure/keep up.

Nearly everyone here uses something that is modern technology if only modern steels and electronic variable speeds.

As someone has pointed out, some are 2 or 3 decades behind with the CNC lathe.

It is IN the future of woodturning, its not THE future of woodturning. :)

John
 
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It is IN the future of woodturning, its not THE future of woodturning. Great statement John. I remember when photography went digital someone asked if Ansel Adams would use it. The answer was yes. He was experimenting with Polaroid when it first came out. I think it's good to at least look at new technology to see if it might be useful to your artwork. It may or may not be but you never know until you try it.
 
odie said:
Ditto on the repetitive spindle turnings.....

Michelle......it would be very possible to produce a CNC wood lathe with computerized control of the cutters, but I feel it would be nearly an impossibility to get a machine to find the best presentation to produce the finest cut. What is possible is to have a CNC wood lathe that could direct tools that could "plunge" shape a turned object.

To my thinking, the only way to find that best cut is through our very human sense of feel, hearing, and sight.....and machines don't have these senses with anywhere near the acuity as we do......

ko
Click to expand...

I dunno..with router bits, pieces are now being made by cnc,/and non-cnc ..the cuts are very clean..spindles are very easy to make & repeat...not my way of doing things, but lots of folks like it & can afford it.
 
Michelle Rich said:
I dunno..with router bits, pieces are now being made by cnc,/and non-cnc ..the cuts are very clean..spindles are very easy to make & repeat...not my way of doing things, but lots of folks like it & can afford it.
Click to expand...

Not my way either, Michelle.....:D

One thing about it, is we "old fashioned" minded turners, many times shape our turnings on the spot, as we go. It is hard for me to conceptualize how a computer screen has any advantage for spindle, or bowl turning where this applies. For repetitive pieces, I think yes, most assuredly so. If someone were doing boxes with complex internal shapes, lid fit....maybe threads.....there may well be a viable application there.....:confused:

For sure, there is going to be some turners who see this "visualizer" as a boon to their productivity......but, I suspect the greater majority of turners (with the exception of hollow forms) will not......;)

ko
 
This one includes the android device, mouse, and proprietary software. Trents does not. This one is around $950, Trents around $600, DIY $20. It's $20 if you have already have an old laptop (if not, less than $200 on Craigslist or local recycler), and a way to hold the camera (like your device that currently holds a laser). Then you buy an endoscope camera off Ebay ($14 free shipping), a dry erase marker ($2), and a piece of acetate(?). I've had my homemade system going for months. Routinely turn 6" sphere hollow forms under 4 ounces.
 
So Richard are you saying Trent's is fairly priced? First I don't think he is taking a chance on used computer equipment for his monitors so his cost may be more but even if they are the same as the the used computer amount, his price still seems fair to me. Your total comes to around $250 to $300 by the time you make a camera holder and mounts for the monitor and such parts, which are things that come with Trent's system. His also includes a mounting arm for your favorite capturing system. Add this all up, it is common when manufacturing takes place of a product to have 100% to 300% mark on the product, depending on product type. That covers the cost you don't see such as labor, electricity, R&D, handling, packaging, profit and etc. etc. (in some industries they add all this into the product and mark it 100% to 300%).

IMO it is fairly priced and did I mention fun also. :)
 
dbonertz said:
So Richard are you saying Trent's is fairly priced? First I don't think he is taking a chance on used computer equipment for his monitors so his cost may be more but even if they are the same as the the used computer amount, his price still seems fair to me. Your total comes to around $250 to $300 by the time you make a camera holder and mounts for the monitor and such parts, which are things that come with Trent's system. His also includes a mounting arm for your favorite capturing system. Add this all up, it is common when manufacturing takes place of a product to have 100% to 300% mark on the product, depending on product type. That covers the cost you don't see such as labor, electricity, R&D, handling, packaging, profit and etc. etc. (in some industries they add all this into the product and mark it 100% to 300%).

IMO it is fairly priced and did I mention fun also. :)
Click to expand...

Fair price Dale? Deciding fair is up to each individual. I am curious though, which electronic components is he manufacturing that he should add your suggested 100% to 300% mark up? Actually I think you make my case pretty well. Suggesting that a $350 - $400 mark up, over the cost of making it myself, should bring pause to anyone that likes to tinker around and make tools himself. Especially when only over the counter electronic components are used, and a fair number of turners already have a laser mount. The profession or hobby of woodturning is ripe with DIY tools, Trent included. He brought a Fibonacci gage to the demo he did at our club, made from scrap sheet aluminum. It's apparent you are a real fan of Trent, that's fine. But as in any good debate, there are always two sides to a discussion.
 
Camera?

Richard Coers said:
Fair price Dale? Deciding fair is up to each individual. I am curious though, which electronic components is he manufacturing that he should add your suggested 100% to 300% mark up? Actually I think you make my case pretty well. Suggesting that a $350 - $400 mark up, over the cost of making it myself, should bring pause to anyone that likes to tinker around and make tools himself. Especially when only over the counter electronic components are used, and a fair number of turners already have a laser mount. The profession or hobby of woodturning is ripe with DIY tools, Trent included. He brought a Fibonacci gage to the demo he did at our club, made from scrap sheet aluminum. It's apparent you are a real fan of Trent, that's fine. But as in any good debate, there are always two sides to a discussion.
Click to expand...

Hey Richard aside from the fun of eave dropping on this debate, would I need special software to run the camera that you suggest? I see lots on ebay and amazon is there a focal length or ??? that I would need to look for. I have a couple of used laptops as well as a great hollowing system with a laser so all I need, I think, is a platform to place the laptop and a camera. I do have a web cam? Do you think I could use it?
 
Pete Blair said:
Hey Richard aside from the fun of eave dropping on this debate, would I need special software to run the camera that you suggest? I see lots on ebay and amazon is there a focal length or ??? that I would need to look for. I have a couple of used laptops as well as a great hollowing system with a laser so all I need, I think, is a platform to place the laptop and a camera. I do have a web cam? Do you think I could use it?
Click to expand...

Here is someone's blog with pictures,
http://lumberjocks.com/TheDane/blog/45497

The camera I bought has a focal length of 8cm to infinite. It had a 5 meter cord. Software depends on the operating system of the laptop. Some are plug and play, mine was not compatible to plug and play, so I used the mini CD they send along. I open the file on the cd with a shortcut on the desktop, and full screen the image. With the screen size I have, the image is very close to 1:1 scale. If you have a bigger screen, you can set a ruler up next to the cutter to set distance with your screen marks. The camera has an aluminum housing and is sold as being 14.5mm diameter. That is at the tip, it's close to 12mm in the body of the camera. My mount was the Jamieson. I had to use a longer bolt since the camera is slightly larger diameter than the camera. It still locates in the holder, it just doesn't go to fully closed now. A little annoyance is that you have to keep the computer from going to sleep. Every once and a while, bump the mouse. I routinely do that now when I'm getting down to "transparent type" wall thicknesses.
 
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Richard, you are talking apples and oranges when you say what you can do by scrounging around for old used components and cobble together your own copy of Trent's system as a basis for deciding whether Trent's price is reasonable. That's a bit like telling a new car dealer that you can beat his price by going to "Tote the Note" on the other side of the tracks.

I talked to Trent briefly at SWAT and he showed me what his system does. I think it is really cool, but I don't have any plans to buy one. It's not because I think that it is over priced, but because it is somewhat expensive and I feel uncomfortable spending that much on something that I would seldom use. If I turned a lot of large deep hollow forms then I might give it more serious consideration.
 
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Richard Coers said:
... A little annoyance is that you have to keep the computer from going to sleep. Every once and a while, bump the mouse. I routinely do that now when I'm getting down to "transparent type" wall thicknesses.
Click to expand...

Assuming it is a Windows based computer, go into control panel>power options and set the turn off the display to never in both battery and plugged in. Also change the sleep setting to never. Then turn off the screen saver as well.
 
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