Is VM120 too big for my lathe?

[Raja Abusharr]

I use a Powermatic 2014 (14", 1HP, 200lb weight) and an Axminister SK100 Clubman chuck, both my first turning gear since beginning last summer. I have wanted a second chuck and concluded that a Vicmarc stepjaw kit give me good flexibility. So I have looked at the bare VM100 or the VM120 chucks. The VM100 is probably logical choice for my 14" lathe and perhaps comparable to the SK100 Axminster. The VM120 can accomodate wider range step jaws and a larger lathe in the future. Can I ask if any turners have expereince with a VM120 on a lathe like mine?

 

[Gabriel Hoff]

I have had the 2014 in the past and currently have the VM 120 chuck as my primary chuck. I really like it and it grips a wide range of diameters and holds the workpiece very well. I don't think using the VM120 on the 2014 would be a problem, but I would make sure the lathe is secure, bolted etc. It does weigh a lot more then a smaller chuck, but it is not anywhere close to maxing out the 786lb weight rating for the spindle.

 

[JeffSmith]

I'm not an owner of the VM120, but would like to weigh in with my experience with the use of step jaws in general - I wouldn't base the decision of which chuck to buy based on the available step jaw sets. I'm the proud owner of a set of Vicmark Raffan designed step jaws - had them for about 15 years now. I was weaned on Mr Raffan's books and videos since taking up turning two and a half decades ago. I have seen him demonstrate in person many times. He is an incredible turner and a skilled teacher - I learned a lot from those exposures and I continue to watch his current series of videos on youtube whenever I need a little inspiration. He is a gift to the turning community that just keeps on giving.

That said, those jaws have only been out of the drawer a very few times and I cannot remember ever actually working on a piece held by a tenon with those jaws. For my work, they just don't fit well. The tenon is shallow, not a huge problem, but the face of the jaws is also narrow. Very often the next larger step is an impediment to the form unless it is a very steeply-sided vase or hollow form. I just don't turn that many of either. For shallow open form bowls they are often just unusable. Full disclosure - I did use them to hold a large platter with a recess I inadvertently made too large for the jaws I normally use - they worked just fine. Whenever I mention my experience with them there seems to be more people that have come to the same conclusion than not.

I have 7 different chucks and use 5 of them on a regular basis - generally with dovetail jaws - The jaws that see regular service on the larger chucks are the 50mm and 100mm jaw sets, two smaller chucks are generally set with the equivalent jaws - just slightly smaller (sorry - to lazy to go measure or look up actual sizes) the fifth chuck is an older tommy-bar model that has pin jaws pretty much permanently attached for really small diameter stuff.

For some reason I have left the step jaws setup on a chuck for a long time - probably should see if anyone thinks they can't live without a set, but I find it hard to part with tools. Someday they may just solve a problem that I don't have yet.

 

[Dean Center]

Jeff's experience with step jaws is pretty typical from what I've read on this forum. Something that sounds good but turns out to be disappointing.

 

[Mick Fagan]

I have the step jaws for the VM100 chuck and use them extensively, in fact the step jaws and one or two of my different sized shark jaws, are usually the three jaw sets on my three VM100 chucks.

Richard Raffan just released a new video this week on the chucks and the jaw sets he has on them, quite interesting.

 

[Bill Blasic]

I have a friend that uses VM120 on his small jet and has been doing so for over 20 years, looks funny but it has worked for him.

 

[Adrian Wilson]

My lathe is smaller than yours, a 12" General, but when I went to order a VM 120 Ken, the Canadian dealer, called to strongly suggest I go with the VM 100 instead. I'm not sure if 2" extra makes the difference. For what I do, I haven't needed anything bigger than the 100 yet.

 

[Lance Mirrer]

While the only minor issue I have ever had with the VM120 is the weight, which on small pieces (e.g. finials) is overkill. With that minor issue, the Chuck is amazing and will never disappoint you.

That being said, unless there is a shortcoming in the Axminster Chuck you are using, the flexibility of having a second chuck which uses the same jaw type will ease your work, jaw buying, etc. far better than starting a new manufacturer. Most next projects will be served best by a wide range of jaw sets.

While I don't own an Axminster, everyone I know who has one is very happy with it.

 

[Tom Lucas]

It's not too big. I love mine. Though I use it on a larger lathe. I find it especially good for finials where the 2" jaws generally open far enough to take square/rectangular blanks without the need to create a tenon. My Super Nova 2 chuck has similar 2" nominal jaws but doesn't have near the range of opening that the Vic does. Most of the times a square finial blank is too big for the SN2. The jaws on the Vic are also much thicker. I also turned 16" bowls with those 2" jaws. They have never let go.

The only issue with my VM120 is that it will spin itself off if stopped abruptly from a high speed. Mine is direct thread with no grub screw. If I could do it over I'd get the style with the threaded adapter, which I think has a grub screw.

Get the VM120. With the right jaws it'll do anything you could put on the 2014. But I would skip the step jaws. I have step jaws for my SN2. I never use them. Instead get right-sized jaws. I want a set or two of the shark jaws. I think they will be quite versatile. Maybe a smaller chuck for smaller things like a VM100 or even an SN2.

As another option, I also own the Nova Titan. The Titan is a very nice larger chuck and a little lighter (and cheaper I think) than the Vic.

 

[William Rogers]

I guess I don’t understand. You have the Axminster SK100 chuck why not stick with that brand. The VM 120 is a nice chuck, but now you don’t have comparability between chucks. The Axminster SK114 is larger. I would think Axminster has comparable jaws to the VM 120. My SK100 chucks use a drill key where the newer Sk100 chucks are made similar to the SK114 using a square key. I have the O’Donnell jaws I use a lot. The SK114 has larger jaw slides, however the SK100 jaw slides fit the SK114.

 

[Raja Abusharr]

I guess I don’t understand. You have the Axminster SK100 chuck why not stick with that brand. The VM 120 is a nice chuck, but now you don’t have comparability between chucks. The Axminster SK114 is larger. I would think Axminster has comparable jaws to the VM 120. My SK100 chucks use a drill key where the newer Sk100 chucks are made similar to the SK114 using a square key. I have the O’Donnell jaws I use a lot. The SK114 has larger jaw slides, however the SK100 jaw slides fit the SK114.

The clubman uses the geared key so unless I get another sk100 clubman I would end up with 2 keys anyway regardless of brand. Since I would .of want to change jaws then staying with one brand is kinda same as above. I was leaning to vicmarc Because of Richard Raffan''s influence. I was looking for most versatility hence the step jaws of the Vic. But other than Raffan it seems no one uses them ... I'm waiting for sales or deals as I would go with either ax. Vic or Titan by nova.

 

[Raja Abusharr]

It's not too big. I love mine. Though I use it on a larger lathe. I find it especially good for finials where the 2" jaws generally open far enough to take square/rectangular blanks without the need to create a tenon. My Super Nova 2 chuck has similar 2" nominal jaws but doesn't have near the range of opening that the Vic does. Most of the times a square finial blank is too big for the SN2. The jaws on the Vic are also much thicker. I also turned 16" bowls with those 2" jaws. They have never let go.

The only issue with my VM120 is that it will spin itself off if stopped abruptly from a high speed. Mine is direct thread with no grub screw. If I could do it over I'd get the style with the threaded adapter, which I think has a grub screw.

Get the VM120. With the right jaws it'll do anything you could put on the 2014. But I would skip the step jaws. I have step jaws for my SN2. I never use them. Instead get right-sized jaws. I want a set or two of the shark jaws. I think they will be quite versatile. Maybe a smaller chuck for smaller things like a VM100 or even an SN2.

As another option, I also own the Nova Titan. The Titan is a very nice larger chuck and a little lighter (and cheaper I think) than the Vic.

Thanks for that John. Advice on stepjaws seems to be that despite their theoretical utility , most folks don't reach for them hardly at all. I was leaning on raffans advice (his new video is helpful btw)

 

[William Rogers]

The clubman uses the geared key so unless I get another sk100 clubman I would end up with 2 keys anyway regardless of brand. Since I would .of want to change jaws then staying with one brand is kinda same as above. I was leaning to vicmarc Because of Richard Raffan''s influence. I was looking for most versatility hence the step jaws of the Vic. But other than Raffan it seems no one uses them ... I'm waiting for sales or deals as I would go with either ax. Vic or Titan by nova.

True, the new SK100 uses a square drive same as the SK114. Some turners swear by the Vicmarc chuck and other the OneWay chucks. Both are excellent chucks, however I feel the Axminster chucks are equal to those. I haven’t seen or used the Titan chuck. I like the Axminster because they are stainless steel and changing jaws is simple. I wouldn’t switch to either VicMarc or Oneway. I have the Axminster O’Donnell jaws with the inserts that I use a lot. It depends on what you are turning if they would be beneficial to you. They will fit the SK100 chuck. The other most used jaws are my 100mm dovetail jaws. The step jaws I have from Axminster are steel that incorporate the jaw slides. These are no longer offered. As others they are not used much, but sometimes. They now have aluminum step jaws and to me they would not be as good as the Vicmarc step jaws. I prefer a direct thread chuck like the Axminster, one less tolerance stack-up. Not sure the other brands provide direct thread. Axminster is my personal preference. I had SuperNova chucks that I sold. I still have my Hurricane HTC125 chuck that is a good chuck and sometimes use.

 

[Bill Alston]

I agree with William about direct threaded chucks. I had a chuck with bad runout that used a threaded insert. Never again. I have Axminster, Record Power and Nova chucks. The Axminster has, in my view, the best build quality and range of top jaws but they’re expensive. The others though are more than adequate if you can get the jaws you need. Oh, and you don’t need to be concerned about rust with the Axminster, it’s Stainless Steel.

Edit: Forgot to say Raja, that’s a nice lathe you have! I’d love a Powermatic if I had the space. Only my view but I reckon the Powermatic 4224B is one of the best lathes you can get.

 

[Raja Abusharr]

I agree with William about direct threaded chucks. I had a chuck with bad runout that used a threaded insert. Never again. I have Axminster, Record Power and Nova chucks. The Axminster has, in my view, the best build quality and range of top jaws but they’re expensive. The others though are more than adequate if you can get the jaws you need. Oh, and you don’t need to be concerned about rust with the Axminster, it’s Stainless Steel.

Edit: Forgot to say Raja, that’s a nice lathe you have! I’d love a Powermatic if I had the space. Only my view but I reckon the Powermatic 4224B is one of the best lathes you can get.

 

[Raja Abusharr]

Mine is the 2014, smallest one PM makes. Need to get larger as I like turning large bowls and prefer a longer bed. I made a few maple handles for various gouges and I love that I can get a long handle that is a pleasure to use. I would not spend money on an bed extension to the 2014. The 4224B is probably 9k$..... wonder if at that price Robust AB or a OneWay or vicmarc is a better lathe...

 

[Alan Weinberg]

wonder if at that price Robust AB or a OneWay or vicmarc is a better lathe

from what I read, no question that AB is better. Not sure re the others and I only have a PM3520. Haven’t turned on any of those 3 but my dream machine is AB.

 

[Randy Heinemann]

I'm not sure why there would be a question of using the Vicmarc 120 on what is basically a full-size lathe in the sense that the 2014 has a 20" capacity over the bed. My 3520 has the same. Although I currently have all Nova chucks, I do have a comparably sized Nova chuck which I use when I need 3 1/2" or 4" tenons. I can also equip this chuck with an even larger jawset. I'm sure the Vicmarc chuck would be handle similar sized jaw sets.

 

[Raja Abusharr]

The PM2014 has a 14" capacity on a 20" bed. It's not a fullsize

 

[Bill Boehme]

I think this hasn't been pointed out, but the size of the piece of wood and NOT the size of the lathe determines what size chuck to use. I have several Vicmarc VM120 and VM100 chucks as well as several Oneway Talon and Stronghold chucks that I use on my Robust American Beuty lathe. Most of the time (about 90%) I use one of the smaller chucks because they hold just as well as the larger chucks when the piece of wood is less than 16 inches in diameter. Another advantage of the smaller chucks is that they allow closer access to the bottom of the turning. I'm not a fan of stepped jaws because they can, in some instances, restrict access when working close to the bottom of a turning. The advantage of the Oneway profiled jaws is that they provide better holding over a range of jaw sizes whereas dovetail jaws require nearly "perfect circle" diameter tenons for maximum holding. On the other hand, dovetail jaws provide more precise realignment than profiled jaws when a workpiece needs to be removed and replaced on the chuck.

 

[Raja Abusharr]

Thanks Bill. I pulled the plug on the SK114 and have decided to splurge and get a VM100 with 50mm shark jaws and deal with two keys. I dont need all my chucks to be one brand, anymore than gouges need to be one manufacturer. I agree with size of wood being the issue but my concerns was the lathes capabilities. I have done all my bowls up to 12" heavy green wood on the Axm. Sk100 with standard jaws without a problem. The only reason for me to grab a larger chuck was in prep for a larger lathe so 16"+ bowls can be turned with a larger tenon. I guess the opinions are based on individuals experinces, skill, and often happenstance. Its a learning process as I have 6 months experience with this new hobby.

 

[Bill Alston]

The Axminster C Jaws are only dovetailed on the outside, the inside has a lip instead, shown in this picture.
They provide a good grip on a tenon.

 

[Bill Alston]

Robust AB

from what I read, no question that AB is better. Not sure re the others and I only have a PM3520. Haven’t turned on any of those 3 but my dream machine is AB.

Any particular reason you like the AB so much? I haven’t seen one in the flesh but all those welded parts (like the OneWay) make it look a bit fussy. I’m not sure Powermatic lathes are still available over here but Axminster Tools used to sell them and the 4224B was an impressive looking machine when I kicked the tyres on one in the showroom.
I used to use a metalwork lathe sometimes at my last job and it wasn’t too dissimilar in style to a Powermatic in some ways. I used to like having the rubber lined tray on top of the head for keeping tools and small components to hand. Something I sorely miss on my wood lathe.

 

[William Rogers]

Robust AB

Any particular reason you like the AB so much? I haven’t seen one in the flesh but all those welded parts (like the OneWay) make it look a bit fussy. I’m not sure Powermatic lathes are still available over here but Axminster Tools used to sell them and the 4224B was an impressive looking machine when I kicked the tyres on one in the showroom.
I used to use a metalwork lathe sometimes at my last job and it wasn’t too dissimilar in style to a Powermatic in some ways. I used to like having the rubber lined tray on top of the head for keeping tools and small components to hand. Something I sorely miss on my wood lathe.

Bill, I have the Robust AB. There are many reasons I chose this lathe, here are just a few. Tail stock tilt away is one of the best, adjustable leg height, stainless steel ways, 7 year warranty, sliding headstock, spindle lock, and customer service are just a few. I have had this lathe for about 3 years and the best feature is it has always worked. I turn on a 4224 at our club and it is a massive lathe. The banjo lock is not as good on this lathe, but powermatic changed it on the newer lathes. The banjo is also harder to move around. The tail stock swing away is adequate, but not as good as the Robust. The Powermatic is nice, but IMO I think the Robust is better. I didn’t choose the OneWay as it does not have a sliding headstock. Vicmarc is another nice lathe, but a pivoting headstock does not interest me.

 

[Randy Heinemann]

I use a Powermatic 2014 (14", 1HP, 200lb weight) and an Axminister SK100 Clubman chuck, both my first turning gear since beginning last summer. I have wanted a second chuck and concluded that a Vicmarc stepjaw kit give me good flexibility. So I have looked at the bare VM100 or the VM120 chucks. The VM100 is probably logical choice for my 14" lathe and perhaps comparable to the SK100 Axminster. The VM120 can accomodate wider range step jaws and a larger lathe in the future. Can I ask if any turners have expereince with a VM120 on a lathe like mine?

A slight shift in focus…The 2014 does have a bed extension available which, when installed in the lower location, increases the capacity to 20”. Since you said that you may turn larger bowls, that would be a less expensive option than a new lathe. I always thought bigger too but since getting a full size 3520, I have not gone beyond 12” primarily because I just have had no interest in large, only in refining my skills with 8-10” bowls. Just one of those things that seems like a goal then turns out not to be.

 

[Bill Alston]

I too have little interest in turning big stuff even though I can get native timbers in reasonably large sizes if I want them. Kiln dried exotics on the other hand are very expensive over here if you can get them.

 

[Raja Abusharr]

A slight shift in focus…The 2014 does have a bed extension available which, when installed in the lower location, increases the capacity to 20”. Since you said that you may turn larger bowls, that would be a less expensive option than a new lathe. I always thought bigger too but since getting a full size 3520, I have not gone beyond 12” primarily because I just have had no interest in large, only in refining my skills with 8-10” bowls. Just one of those things that seems like a goal then turns out not to be.

Much appreciated !

 

[Bill Alston]

That 13” Bed extension looks very useful.

https://powermatic.com/media/akeneo_connector/asset_files/M/_/M_1792014_PM2014_Lathe_Edition_3_241b.pdf

 

[Mick Fagan]

Thanks Bill. I pulled the plug on the SK114 and have decided to splurge and get a VM100 with 50mm shark jaws and deal with two keys. I dont need all my chucks to be one brand, anymore than gouges need to be one manufacturer. I agree with size of wood being the issue but my concerns was the lathes capabilities. I have done all my bowls up to 12" heavy green wood on the Axm. Sk100 with standard jaws without a problem. The only reason for me to grab a larger chuck was in prep for a larger lathe so 16"+ bowls can be turned with a larger tenon. I guess the opinions are based on individuals experinces, skill, and often happenstance. Its a learning process as I have 6 months experience with this new hobby.

I think you'll like the VM100 chuck.

Just for your information, the little bolts that hold the jaw sets in using a 3mm Allen Key, (supplied with the chuck), are a little easy to get rounded if you are changing jaw sets often, or leave them in forever then try to remove them. If you do leave them forever then cannot remove them, open the jaws to the maximum, then tap the heads of the bolt(s) with the rounded end of a ball-peen hammer. Vicmarc have this exact operation on their website in a short video.

Over time I decided to purchase extra bolts but not through wood turning shops, way too expensive.

The standard bolts are:- M6 x 12 (12 mm long) Flat Head Socket Screws G12.9 (Alloy Steel - Plain). The G12.9 specification is important.

If you ever decide to get a set of Vicmarc bowl jaws, there are a few sizes of these jaw sets, then you will need longer bolts, which for some reason are never included in explanations of what these bowl jaws can do.

The Bowl Jaw bolts are the same as above, except they are longer. M6 x 16 (16mm in length).

It is possible to attach a set of Vicmarc bowl jaws with the normal shorter bolts, just. However they can come off, and in the instance I have seen, by stripping the threads on one of the bolts. This caused a very bad out of balance wobble; which was not nice for the turner involved.

In case you aren't sure what a set of bowl jaws look like; below, is a set of Vicmarc Bowl Jaws attached to a VM100 chuck. The white rubber thingys holding the bowl in place, are aftermarket ones I provided myself. They are in fact, soft rubber door stops.

 

[Brian Gustin]

In case you aren't sure what a set of bowl jaws look like; below, is a set of Vicmarc Bowl Jaws attached to a VM100 chuck.

Here in the USA, we call them Cole Jaws , BTW - or possibly that's the more common name for them - I just recently got a set (8 inch) for my PSI Barracuda chuck and they work so much better than my homemade longworth....
With some custom home-brew attachments, which I have a few in mind to craft, appears they can be far more useful...

 

[Raja Abusharr]

I think you'll like the VM100 chuck.

Just for your information, the little bolts that hold the jaw sets in using a 3mm Allen Key, (supplied with the chuck), are a little easy to get rounded if you are changing jaw sets often, or leave them in forever then try to remove them. If you do leave them forever then cannot remove them, open the jaws to the maximum, then tap the heads of the bolt(s) with the rounded end of a ball-peen hammer. Vicmarc have this exact operation on their website in a short video.

Over time I decided to purchase extra bolts but not through wood turning shops, way too expensive.

The standard bolts are:- M6 x 12 (12 mm long) Flat Head Socket Screws G12.9 (Alloy Steel - Plain). The G12.9 specification is important.

If you ever decide to get a set of Vicmarc bowl jaws, there are a few sizes of these jaw sets, then you will need longer bolts, which for some reason are never included in explanations of what these bowl jaws can do.

The Bowl Jaw bolts are the same as above, except they are longer. M6 x 16 (16mm in length).

It is possible to attach a set of Vicmarc bowl jaws with the normal shorter bolts, just. However they can come off, and in the instance I have seen, by stripping the threads on one of the bolts. This caused a very bad out of balance wobble; which was not nice for the turner involved.

In case you aren't sure what a set of bowl jaws look like; below, is a set of Vicmarc Bowl Jaws attached to a VM100 chuck. The white rubber thingys holding the bowl in place, are aftermarket ones I provided myself. They are in fact, soft rubber door stops.


View attachment 59788

A much appreciated bit of info on the chucks and photo. I pulled the plug on the sk114 axminister and the O'Donnell Jaws. I am a keyboard click from spurging on the VM100 and a shark jaws from uncle Vic. Always a struggle between "need" and "want." I'm watching a lot of Tomislav Tomasic (mentored by R. Raffan) his teaching is as good as one can expect on YouTube. He truly teaches and will likely become the most watched prolific turner on YT. Amazing that Raffan still does about a video a day and teaches the whole time. I am very interested in how they mount the bowl using expanding jaws so as to finish base of bowls. Not sure how Raffan can mount and not mar the inside of the bowl. I am turning so much green wood from bark to bowl so warpage is common so I am sanding off the bottoms to allow for stable base as wood changes. I see no point in decorating the bottom of something that is used right side up. Sorry for the long reply. I love this site!

 

[Bill Alston]

We call them Cole Jaws in the UK as well. I have a set but stopped using them in favour of a Doughnut Chuck. It’s a much more secure way of remounting bowls and can even be used for things like small vases as well. I used a Faceplate for mounting mine though instead of a wooden tenon. You could use a Faceplate Ring instead but a Faceplate removes another possible source of mounting error.

Doughnut Chuck

Doughnut Chuck: A Doughnut Chuck is a great jig to hold turned bowls on a lathe. It grants access to flatten and finish the bottom of any bowl. This simple chuck can be made in an afternoon and can be customized to fit any lathe and bowl.

www.instructables.com

 

[Mick Fagan]

Thank you for the Cole jaws name; we use that term down here as well. Regardless of the generic name we all know, the person who started this thread is relatively new to turning, so I called them bowl jaws, and added a picture. Vicmarc do call them bowl jaws, which makes me wonder if Cole jaws is/was a trade name?

 

[Mick Fagan]

Raja, if you search for the video, "Richard Raffan Using Chucks Without Marking The Wood".

This may give you some ideas.

Richard uses a few sizes of Vicmarc's Shark Jaws on his VM100 chucks, as I do. The sizes I use the most are the 48mm, which I believe you are contemplating, and the 88mm shark jaws on my VM100 chucks. At 48mm and 88mm respectively, these jaw sets form perfect circles, so if you have a bead, or foot at those exact measurements, or perhaps a millimetre wider at 49mm and 89mm; no more, you should find you are able to chuck something without marring it, so to speak.

When these jaws are made, they are made in one solid piece, then they are cut into quarters. When the jaws have an approximate gap of 1.5mm under slight tension, that is when they form a perfect circle. The gap is there because whatever they made the cut with, removed the missing metal.

Also, looking at your display of bowls, then remembering how long you have been turning, you are doing very well.

 

[Bill Alston]

I read that Cole Jaws were named after a guy called Trevor Cole who worked at one of the Chuck manufacturers?

After turning I used to think that all Jaw blanks were cut into four pieces with a Bandsaw until I saw this video. You can see they are quartered on a CNC mill with what looks like a 5 or 6mm milling cutter?

View: https://youtu.be/tQEyeu0gsEE?si=eBASkZtfdtJ_-i06

 

[Mick Fagan]

Thanks Bill, quite interesting, I wonder how other manufacturers get a much narrower gap?

 

[Mick Fagan]

Raja, I did a bit of searching of my pictures, this shows the largest Vicmarc Shark Jaw set (88mm) for the VM100 in action. It, along with my 48mm set, is very versatile and safe.

Just for interests sake, the partially turned bowl attached to the jaws, has come from the interior of the lopsided bowl blank it is facing. I'm in the process here, of doing second turnings of previously cored green blanks which are now dry; I managed to get four bowls from this one piece of wood.

The jaws here are virtually forming a perfect circle, thereby giving maximum grip, as well as maximum safety. The deformed blank on the other side is the next step up and that rough blank is being held by my VM120 chuck and an appropriate jaw set.

One of the major differences between the VM100 jaw sets and VM120 jaw sets, is the height of the dovetail piece that actually grips the wood. The VM120 jaw sets are higher than the VM100 jaw sets and the larger VM120 jaw sets, are higher again than the smaller VM120 jaw sets.