Jig grinding is obviously more popular but is it really Better? I bought a Vari-grind jig and it seems to live up to the claims made of it. It can produce a nice clean , even, repeatable pattern, and is very easy to use. It obviously produces a useful grind, because a lot of people are using it, but does a hand grind have the potential to be better? My questiuon is not how to hand grind, I'm assuming a properly done grind. I have been watching a lot of videos, and have been impressed enough with Richard Raffans work that I bought a couple of his books. He claims (there are a few others as well) that a hand grind will produce a more functional tool than a jig grind. With what I have invested in this hobby already, and I'm just getting started, the thought of sacrificing a gouge to the learning curve doesn't bother me too much. Assuming that the payoff is really there. Any hand grinders out there?
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Jig grind VS hand grind
- Thread starter David Martin
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there are lots of variables - lots of jigs - lots of hand grinding methods.
most jigs produce a hollow ground bevel. the Hollow ground effect can be eliminated with a micro bevel.
hand grinding can produce a hollow ground, flat or convex bevel. At least one jig can produce something like a convex bevel.
hand grinding is faster if you do it correctly But not by much.
this is how I sharpen a spindle gouge with a flat bevel.
i got a lot of practice hours…
most jigs produce a hollow ground bevel. the Hollow ground effect can be eliminated with a micro bevel.
hand grinding can produce a hollow ground, flat or convex bevel. At least one jig can produce something like a convex bevel.
hand grinding is faster if you do it correctly But not by much.
this is how I sharpen a spindle gouge with a flat bevel.
i got a lot of practice hours…
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Biggest visual difference is that the wings are far more acute with jig grinding than they are with freehand/platform sharpening. Some struggle to get past the learning stage of platform sharpening. You do exactly the same thing with the freehand sharpening that you do with turning. Anchor the tool on the tool rest, or fingers, rub the bevel, and cut. It does save a lot of time if you are a production turner.
robo hippy
robo hippy
I started out with the varigrind, but later switched to hand grinding because it’s a lot faster.
No regrets about the jig. Having sharp, predictable edges on my gouges made it easier to diagnose problems when I was learning how to use them.
No regrets about the jig. Having sharp, predictable edges on my gouges made it easier to diagnose problems when I was learning how to use them.
This is really where I was going with this. If Richard Raffin says a hand grind produces a more useful tool I'm inclined to believe him. Other than that he grinds all his gouges to an asymetrical shape, he does not elaborate on what that shape is. I'm pretty confident in my ability to learn the techniques of hand grinding, what I don't know is what shape I am trying to grind into the tool.
I talked to someone in my club who teaches hand grinding with mild steel rod (instead of actual turning tools). So, he mounts mild steel in a handle, grinds one side flat (to very roughly simulate a bowl gouge flute), and then has students practice hand sharpening with that. I like the idea because you can buy a lot of mild steel rod for the price of a single turning tool.
Does this sound like a good way to learn hand grinding to you?
Does this sound like a good way to learn hand grinding to you?
I think that for someone who has never ground any kind of tool before, that could be a good starting point. At some point you are going to have to test your grind by using it though. I could see buying some inexpensive tools to practice on.
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I’m sure you can master hand grinding. But it will be an unknown time. The great thing about jigs is the basics can be mastered in about 30 minutes with an instructor and probably less than 5-10 hours with videos and practice.
this lets new turners concentrate on learning to turn rather than learning to sharpen.
hand sharpening is unlikely to make you a better turner for many years If at all.
jigs produce sharp useable tools.
Learning to hand grind is a 6 month training program and will eat up at least one gouge, in my experience. Once you can get a reasonably ground gouge, you can then start learning to turn, because before that, the flaws in the grind will cause problems and you won't realize where they came from. That's a recipe for frustration and discouragement.
If the grind you want to achieve is within the reach of a jig, I would strongly recommend using one, so you can focus on having fun and learning to turn. If the grind is not achievable by a jig, then, by all means learn hand grinding.
BTW Richard Raffan is my hero, too, but his books were mostly written 30 years ago, and he learned to turn before there was electricity. OK, that's an exageration, but he made his living turning wood before there were jigs. You're not following that path in the 21st century. You can protect yourself from grizzly bears with a David approved slingshot if you want, but I'm taking pepper spray.
If the grind you want to achieve is within the reach of a jig, I would strongly recommend using one, so you can focus on having fun and learning to turn. If the grind is not achievable by a jig, then, by all means learn hand grinding.
BTW Richard Raffan is my hero, too, but his books were mostly written 30 years ago, and he learned to turn before there was electricity. OK, that's an exageration, but he made his living turning wood before there were jigs. You're not following that path in the 21st century. You can protect yourself from grizzly bears with a David approved slingshot if you want, but I'm taking pepper spray.
A big advantage of hand grinding is it’s easy to change the grind. I was with my mentor showing him a gouge I don’t like because the bottom radius of the flute is too small. He ground a new profile In a couple minutes and it was a huge improvement. I went home and spent over 1/2 hour to find settings on my jig to match it.
Some gouges I hand grind, while others I use a jig. I basically use the jig for anything with wings to help maintain their shape. I'm not sure what would happen in my technique if a grind changed--maybe I'd adjust and not notice. But maybe not.
I got the basics of hand grinding in about 5 minutes. I would say I was 'good enough' with it in a month or so. Hardest part was finding a good platform, which I made because there wasn't anything good out on the market. I would say the mental road blocks are the most difficult to get around. Figuring out that what I do when I sharpen is exactly what I do when I turn, was perhaps the biggest hurdle. Other than that, there is a big difference between grinding and sharpening. Even considering that I have multiples of each tool I use, I didn't use up one gouge worth of metal in learning. I am generally quick to pick up new hand skills.
robo hippy
robo hippy
~10 yrs turning experience. I admit it, Im a jig user, hopelessly addicted (for gouges). Never really attempted to perfect hand grinding of gouges (all “flat tools” done by hand with a platform). My lack of success trying to regrind drill bits for years indicated to me don’t waste time trying to do gouges by hand, at least initially.
Another reason - I knew I may go months without turning. Trying to get back in sync with everything would to difficult anyway, no need to add hand sharpening to the list. My prediction has proven accurate.
As to hand sharpening creating grinds that can’t be done by jig - I haven’t found one yet. Realize the are quite a few jigs available. For the most part, they somewhat follow the Varigrind model. Then there is the Tormek gouge jig and the Vector. The Tormek and Vector produce a more blunt wing bevel vs. Varigrind. I use a Tormek jig, with a bench and wet grinder. Far as I can tell my 40/40 grind is pretty darn close to Stuart’s hand grind, and Stuart says the Tormek and Vector get very close to the hand grind.
For long wing BG’s, I prefer the more blunt wing bevel, its less grabby and easier to to use vs the more acute angle a Varigrind creates. BTW a Varigrind can do the same as a Vector, you just need the 4 hole plate, purchased or diy.
As to asymmetric grinds or shape of nose radius - that is simply a function of the amount of time spent grinding in an area of the bevel, hand or jig. I have copied the asymmetric grind Richard R shows - it is not “hand magic”.
As to hand being faster - could be for some. Just depends how often one screws up the grind. Give it whirl, if it works for you, great. I’ll stick with my jig, perfect bevel facets every time, and sharp edges every time.
Another reason - I knew I may go months without turning. Trying to get back in sync with everything would to difficult anyway, no need to add hand sharpening to the list. My prediction has proven accurate.
As to hand sharpening creating grinds that can’t be done by jig - I haven’t found one yet. Realize the are quite a few jigs available. For the most part, they somewhat follow the Varigrind model. Then there is the Tormek gouge jig and the Vector. The Tormek and Vector produce a more blunt wing bevel vs. Varigrind. I use a Tormek jig, with a bench and wet grinder. Far as I can tell my 40/40 grind is pretty darn close to Stuart’s hand grind, and Stuart says the Tormek and Vector get very close to the hand grind.
For long wing BG’s, I prefer the more blunt wing bevel, its less grabby and easier to to use vs the more acute angle a Varigrind creates. BTW a Varigrind can do the same as a Vector, you just need the 4 hole plate, purchased or diy.
As to asymmetric grinds or shape of nose radius - that is simply a function of the amount of time spent grinding in an area of the bevel, hand or jig. I have copied the asymmetric grind Richard R shows - it is not “hand magic”.
As to hand being faster - could be for some. Just depends how often one screws up the grind. Give it whirl, if it works for you, great. I’ll stick with my jig, perfect bevel facets every time, and sharp edges every time.
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Roger Wiegand
Beta Tester
I think Doug's point is well taken If you turn every day and sharpen the same tools many times every day I'm sure that hand grinding will probably quickly become faster. I'm not so sure about better, I'm not that good a turner to really tell for sure. For those if us doing many diverse projects in parallel it may be that turning happens a few hours once a week, with the occasional binge of full time several days in a row. Taking a few days off really dulls muscle memory, so about the time you get the hang of it again it's time to work on one of the other four, non-turning, projects that are demanding your attention. In that situation a jig that provides a good consistent grind without the re-learning phase is a godsend.
Modern tool steels and doing a lot more honing between grinder sharpenings haven't helped with this problem, I go back to the grinder only one tenth as often as I did when I first learned to turn (when Richard Raffin was a young guy), that's just not enough practice to develop good hand skills. Fortunately I'm more interested in turning wood than grinding steel.
Modern tool steels and doing a lot more honing between grinder sharpenings haven't helped with this problem, I go back to the grinder only one tenth as often as I did when I first learned to turn (when Richard Raffin was a young guy), that's just not enough practice to develop good hand skills. Fortunately I'm more interested in turning wood than grinding steel.
I agree, I’d love to be able to hand grind, but currently I don’t turn enough to justify wasting that steel trying . I have a varigrind and I love it it’s very precise and repeatable