Need Oak Advice

[Richard Baker]

Now I understand firsthand why so many folks decline to mess with oak. Have the trunk of a recently cut post oak that had been standing dead for more than a year. The outside approx. 1-1/2†thickness is dry/spalted/rotten/bug eaten, and the interior (to max. of maybe 13†dia.) is solid and moist. A couple test pieces have shown that I’m not fast enough to rough turn a piece of any size before it begins to crack/split/check. Perhaps an underwater lathe is required. But then how to dry it slowly enough after?

The test pieces have shown some beautiful grain (if you like oak), and I would really like to save this wood from the firewood pile if possible. If you have been successful at doing this, please help! Am able to apply melted paraffin if this would help.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I love oak and, of course, post oak is very plentiful in Texas. You are certainly correct about how badly it splits, but the reward is very beautiful and varied patterns in the wood. You need to choose your wood carefully. An old dead standing hollow tree with "interesting" features such as large grown over knots, burls, roots, pieces with voids, etc. are the things that I look for -- in other words, "trash wood". If you cut it green, stay away from the straight stuff because it is most likely to split. If you find some that can't be split with an axe, then you have the right piece. It may be a constant battle keeping it from cracking while you are turning it, but keep lots of CA handy and fight the cracks as they start to open. I turned some bun feet from a post oak tree that was blown over in a storm about two years ago -- even after that length of time, I had to continually stop to soak the end grain with CA to stop the cracking. Once they were turned, I quickly applied a couple coats of spray polyurethane and that sealed the end grain to stop any further cracking. So, I guess that the secret is to turn fast and immediately apply a finish.

Bill

 

[S. Clark]

I keep a plastic bucket half full of water and a soaked rag right by me. I stop turning every few minutes and apply the water with the rag. If I go inside to eat or use the toilet I wrap the rag around the piece. Other than that, once I start I have to keep with it to completions. I shoot for 1/4" or less in thickness because the wood will move instead of crack once that thin.

 

[Barbara Gill]

I have only turned one white oak piece, a layered burl (my first and last). After rough turning it per Dave Smith's instructions, I did the denatured alcohol soak. It developed only a few very small cracks. I finished turned it early this spring and so far it is just fine.

 

[Jeff Jilg]

I agree with Bill Boehme that there are some beautiful pieces of oak if they can properly be processed. I have not been very successful in keeping the cracking at bay. As a result, oak does not get into my shop very often anymore. There are a lot of other woods which are just easier to deal with.

Since you're not that far away in Texas here's what I turn:

• Cedar Elm - very stable and easy to process
• Mesquite (occasionally)
• Chinaberry - soft but grainy and nice patterns
• Hackberry - spalts within 5 minutes if you look at it sideways
• Pecan - nice colors, turns into "pecan-crete" after a year
• Box Elder - probably imported from up north but I did get one last year
• Fruit trees - usually hardwood, usually crack pretty fast
• American Elm - nice grain and colors

 

[Bill Boehme]

One more Texas wood -- Live Oak. I wouldn't cut one down just to get turning wood, but I had the opportunity to get the wood from one that fell down during a rainstorm with high winds. I found that the wood at the base of the tree right where the root system starts is where the most beautiful wood can be found. When fresh and green, it turns wonderfully, but when it dries, it is as hard as iron. Live oak does not have the tendency to crack and warp that post oak does because of its interlocking grain pattern. Did I mention that it is hard? If it flies off the lathe, chanches are that it will not break, but other things that it strikes may.

Bill

 

[TurningDog]

I turn a lot of oak or did prior to thumb surgery. I alway turn it green and thin and let distortion take its toll. But on the other hand most of what turn distortion adds to the piece. For example small thin boxes turned from green oak will distort but if you leave the lid on while it sits in the house and finishes up the drying you get a slightly oval box with a form fitting lid that is distorted in the same proprtion to the box. On oak hollows I make sure the grain will on either axis and any distortion will be even around the form. Unless I have a very good reason for making a perfectly symetrical flat edged oak bowl all my oak bowls have a natural edge and distortion isn't going to matter much. One other thing to considder is if you can't turn a piece fast enough to either rough turn and start an appropriate drying or turn it to final form green, then you might want to think about turning much smaller pieces until you can get your speed up. For what it is worth on how much time it should not take you more than a few minutes more to finish turn a green bowl (not counting sanding) than it did to make it with 1" sides.

 

[MichaelMouse]

I turn oak, and it does sell well. Variety is our northern red, which is the stuff of flooring, not some of the dreadfully misbehaved reds I've seen in other places. Since it's slow-growing, it's a lot easier to compensate for the tangential to radial shrinkage differential. It follows the standard pattern, and the FPL folks seem to have hit it on the head with their average 4.0 radial 8.6 tangential. Modest in both, and a relatively low ratio.

Where you get in trouble with red oak is with the rays, which are natural cleavage planes, and the outsize pore size which doesn't seem to provide enough capillary action to draw water from the interior. It's a wood where it really pays to come down slow on the outside of the bowl. If I lived where I didn't have a basement, I might even consider coating red oak outside.

I said slow, but, as you can see in the accompanying photos, it's not necessarily regular. Interesting twists and turns which still adhere to the basics, where the sides drop either side of the heart and the entire width contracts. If you look at the measurements, you'll see a 12" bowl lost 3/4 of an inch. With nearly vertical sides, that's amost entirely tangential, where FPL predicts an inch. With greater slope, would have been less.

Not great pictures, but a great wood to work with.

 

[Hugh]

Go to the store and purchase a spray bottle. Fill the bottle with water and keep it near your lathe. When the piece you are turning starts to dry out - spray it with water. This works for other woods also. When I turn wet madrone wood - the spray bottle full of water is a must.

The oak I have turned still wants to crack some if one does not turn it thin. When I rough turn an oak bowl - I paint it with sealer and put it in a cool dry place. But I check on it on a regular basis and use super glue to stop cracks from getting any larger than they are when I find them. I have a hollow form on the lathe right now that I coated with super glue to stop it from checking (I hope). I am going to turn it down to about 3/4" and then let it dry as slowly as I can and then re-turn it when it dries. But I will not know the results for a number of months.

I have turned hollow vessels to finish thickness (3/16" - 1/4") and then dried them slowly using a dry towel and a plastic bag. Most will come out without cracks. The main trick is to dry slowly and evenly as possible. Also depends on the weather where you are.
Hugh

 

[Richard Baker]

Thanks to all for your replies! Sounds like the wet rag and spray bottle would help. Guess you spray the lathe bed with Boeshield T9 and cover with plastic first. And maybe seal the outside after turning and bag it in plastic. I will keep trying. Still have about 9 ft. of trunk, and haven't cut down the other dead half of double-trunk tree yet.

I love the oak end grain. Also mesquite (but the flooring factory where I got some free trimmings has disappeared), and spalted hackberry when enhanced with a bit of BLO. Have some small box elders but no big ones. Found it can be sanded and buffed to super smooth surface with no finish at all. Have my eye on a couple of hackberry trees to maybe 12-14" dia., and maybe will cut one this winter.

Thanks again, y'all.

Edit: MM- Beautiful bowl. Have a couple of roughed arizona ash that are shaped just like your first picture.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Thanks to all for your replies! Sounds like the wet rag and spray bottle would help. Guess you spray the lathe bed with Boeshield T9 and cover with plastic first.

Hate to say it, but you might want to Madge the water a bit. Glycerine (glycerol) has a lower boiling point than water, is mildly hygroscopic, and is available at the pharmacy. Diluted with unneeded extra ingredients, it's liquid dish detergent.

Looked up in mapquest, and I see you're in pretty dry territory. Tell me, what's Saturday night in North Zulch like?

 

[Richard Baker]

Have some glycerine and have forgotten what I got it for. How much to use?

Best I can tell, things in N. Zulch are pretty slow all the time, except maybe for home highschool football games. The lady who used to cut my hair had a shop in N. Zulch, but she moved a few miles to the big city of Normangee.

When the johnson grass starts to wither and die, you know it's too d--- hot and too d--- dry. My hay would cry for rain, but it has no tears.

 

[MichaelMouse]

I'd try one to three on the glycerine. You're going to spritz and then cut away, so all that counts is that it shouldn't pose much of a problem with atomization. Dish detergent is perhaps 40%, and its advocates generally laud a 50/50 mix. Could go a touch heavier if the outside isn't staying wet. Sure don't need the high-sudsing surfactant.

You'll only need it on the outside, of course, as the inside dries under compression. Glycerine/water will dry much slower, though you will also be throwing it, so an interim treatment may be required. Given any thought to some of that self-clinging plastic wrap? Tight enough, and you'll gain some anti-squirm. Before I got a steady, I used to duct tape mine.

Didn't see one, but is the presumption of a South Zulch warranted?

 

[David Somers]

An ode to the 4 Zulches

Didn't see one, but is the presumption of a South Zulch warranted?

Forgive me for this. I have been working 14 hour days all week and I am losing it. TGIF!!!!! And my apologies to Zulchers everywhere!

North Zulchers are said to mow lawns with their mulchers.
South Zulchers all live in big gulches sans lawns.
East Zulchers have yards all covered with carpets.
Green shag is the standard on which they all fawn.

West Zulchers are lucky. Their lawns are all ducky
cause they mow them from evening till dawn.
Those folks stay much cooler, and their lawns are the ruler
to which all other Zulchers are drawn.

North Zulchers use lathes, that is they are slaves
to their Jets and their Oneways galore.
The wood that they shave from the bowls they engrave
becomes mulch that South Zulchers adore.

East Zulchers green shag is quite ugly and lags
behind West Zulches great lawnly aesthetics.
And South Zulchers may mulch in the depths of their gulch
But its North Zulch whose great bowls are idyllic!

 

[DeanGThomas]

Should've waxed endgrain instead of poetic

Dave, if you hadn't said you'd been working 14 hour days, I'd have said you have WAY too much time on your hands!

 

[Gretch Flo]

poetry in motion

Dave=put in a few more hours/day and you're on your way to a Grammy!!!! Gretch

 

[MichaelMouse]

Time to change those charcoal filters, Dave?

Especially when using that Poetic Wax.

 

[Richard Baker]

Zulches

Gadzook, this thread is out of control. There is a sign on the railroad track that says "Zulch". Best I can tell all Zulches other than "North" have been lost in the dim mists of antiquity.

The clingy plastic idea sounds interesting. I got some interesting spalting a couple years ago by storing a small roughed oak vase in plastic bags for a few months. Had to fill some cracks with black epoxy. Am going to cut another chunk off my log this morning and try again.

 

[Frank Alvarez]

oak turnings

I guess I was lucky as I started turning with oak when the hurricanes knocked the water oak in my front yard down several years ago. I really didn't have any problems , but all I did was small pieces. The spalting was beautiful . I did turn only small pieces though with very thin ,1/8 " or less, walls. they were all small bowls or platters, no closed forms. I was lucky as the wood was already pretty dry. I just kept cutting and turning till all the checks were gone . Like I said small pieces, the biggest is 4-5 " across. I'll have to try it again now that I have some experience and see if I have more trouble now or was I just good( not likely).
Frank

 

[Richard Baker]

Frank, You may have just been lucky, like I was with the one I did couple years ago. Here's one of my test pieces, an end-grain sample, showing a bit of tangential shrinkage.

 

[Frank Alvarez]

slight shrinkage

Little epoxy and saw dust and you won't be able to see that. LOL

 

[Frank Alvarez]

slight shrinkage

Seriously, I see yours is turned with the pith at the center. I didn't attempt that, especially not with oak. I would only have used the small pieces to the sides of the pith. Like I said it was already pretty dry, so I could pretty well see where the checks and cracks were and seek out wood that seemed pretty stable. I don't have pics but will attach some tonite.
Frank

 

[Richard Baker]

Frank, I couldn't afford that much epoxy. Great looking bowl in lower right picture. Cut another 4" slice and sealed both ends with paraffin, so will see how that does in a year or three. Also cut a 15" long piece, slabbed in half and coated both ends with paraffin. Plan to trim out a bowl blank in a few days and rough it using glycerine/soap and water to keep it wet. Then cover the outside with paraffin and hope for the best. Still working on the small end of the log, hoping to learn enough to make some good stuff from the big end.

 

[Frank Alvarez]

Keeping logs/wood

The other guys in the Central Florida wood turners club tell me they just leave their logs in as big length as possible and don't coat with anything. They tell me they lose about 3-4 inches from the end with checks. I don't have enough experience yet, but I can say with the use of sealer the logs still seem to check remarkedly. I sealed the ends of some logs of hackberry, magnolia, palm and maple . All of them have terrible checks and splits despite my efforts. The longest have been sitting in my shop for 1 1/2 years the shortest 3 months. I don't know how deep the splis go, but I'm hoping the guys in the club are correct( 3-4 inches). If not, I'll do like I did on the oak and just keep cutting and triming till I get to check free wood.
Frank

 

[eaton9999]

Oak is quite a beaultiful wood and should be turned more that we do. Lathe beds can be coated with a "dusting" of wax polish to help prevent tarnishing. The little amount of work we need to do in order to maek us happy turning it is well worth the effort IMHO.

 

[Richard Baker]

Eaton, Do you have some experience turning and/or drying "wet" oak that you could share with us? It is certainly beautiful, and the end grain is way past "awesome" when properly finished.
Frank, From reading the forums for a couple years, the best procedure is to cut the tree, cut some blanks ASAP, rough turn some bowls (or whatever) to a wall thickness 10% of the diameter ASAP, seal the outside of same (or whatever method you like), wait for the rough turned pieces to dry and hope for the best. If there is ANY delay in this procedure, the end grain should be sealed with your material of choice. Next best is maybe to leave it in the log. But you should probably still seal the ends of the log. Maybe lose only 2" instead of 4".
Logger/Turners, Please jump in here if some of this is not right.

 

[Frank Alvarez]

Texian
Appreciate the info . I'll have to try it. I get so little time to turn that when I do, I want to take the piece to completion. That's the beauty of the lathe, the relative immediate gratification of a finished piece .Thus I haven't really rough turned much to let it dry first. "I'll have to develope more discipline master". Sounds like an old Kung Fu movie. I guess you can refer to me as "Tadpole" . With hurricane coming our way I may get that extra time to try it this week, as the vacation to the Keys sounds like it's history.Thanks
Frank