Odie's two questions

[Paul M. Kaplowitz]

My market season is over and I have time to respond to two issues that Odie posted earlier. 1. Do I tell a potential buyer my cost? 2. Do I bargain with a potential buyer? No and yes. People, including myself, don't care what the cost of making an item is. they care about what it will cost them. I'f they decide something is more than they want to pay, knowing what it costs doesn't change their mind. I am asked how long it took to make a given bowl and I do answer that. Time and care are added values to an item.
Do I bargain with people. Sometimes and other times no. Let me give you an example. I had two Hackberry bowls that had not sold for several months. One was $100 and the other $125. A buyer asked what was the best I could do. I said $200 for both, he said $175. I said $190, and he bought them at $185. He felt good, I felt good, a win, win deal. I am never insulted by an offer, everyone wants to get the most for their money. I bargain with everyone. Almost everything is negotiable. I just made a deal for chain saw chains with my local Sthil dealer. I buy 5 and get 1 free. I don't drop my price when I know the bowl will sell or it is an attraction bringing people into my booth. I had a bowl that was 22" in diameter and 10" deep. It was made from the largest Alanthus Altisimma ( Chinese Tree Of Haven) I had ever seen. The price was $600. I was offered $500, $550 and some lower. I refused all offers because I knew it would sell and it did at $600. I wrote an article several years ago for the AAW Journal( Almost making A Living Turning) detailing selling your products. Hope this helps. Paul M. Kaplowitz

 

[Owen Lowe]

Nice commentary Paul. You mentioned that both the buyer and you were happy with the deal. That’s the key to whether or not to negotiate at all and where to draw the line if you do.

Much of whether or not I negotiate depends upon the “vibe†I get from the other person. As folks wander the booth and chat with their companions, ask questions of us (I only do shows in collaboration with fellow turners) and in general seem to be pleasant, interested, and appreciative, then I am more likely to even consider negotiating. If you listen (sometimes known as eavesdropping) to the buying-conflicted customer, you can pick up on their concerns and address them. One instance comes to mind that the person was visiting relatives and lived half the country away. How could they pack the $250 bowl for the plane trip and in general get it home? The sale was made when we offered to pack it and mail it for no additional cost and the icing was that by going this route they also saved the $20+/- sales tax. Postage was on the order of $20, so in effect the price was “negotiated†down to $230 without haggling over dollars. Their problem suddenly disappeared and everyone was happy.

I would also add that there is a little wiggle room built into all of my pricing so that I can sweeten a deal without having bad feelings when someone asks, or I offer, to adjust the price.

 

[Odie]

Merry Christmas everyone!

Paul and Owen......Thanks for the further input. I appreciate your taking the time to gather your thoughts. I am assuming both of you are describing experiences related to "face to face" bargaining, and not art gallery, or online sales? I would think that f2f sales, in itself, does lend itself to more favorable circumstances for bargaining.

I am not opposed to bargaining, but there is that "little inner voice" that persistently says it's a compromise of one's artistic integrity. With online sales, it's much more difficult to get any personal feelings (vibes) from the other person. I certainly am not going to initiate any offers to bargain......but, if someone else does, I might dicker.....it depends. There are, theoretically, many things that could influence what the word "depends", and used in this context means!

ko

 

[Owen Lowe]

Merry Christmas everyone!

I am assuming both of you are describing experiences related to "face to face" bargaining, and not art gallery, or online sales? I would think that f2f sales, in itself, does lend itself to more favorable circumstances for bargaining.

And a Merry Christmas to you too.

Yes, I was speaking about face-to-face interactions. I doubt I would negotiate at all for online sales - I need those strong personal vibes I get from f2f conversations in order to feel that a person appreciates the piece enough for me to let it go for a different amount than what I marked it. That’s a touchy-feely sort of payback I get; a part of me wants them to have the piece so I’m willing to help make that happen.

As to gallery sales, I assume if a gallery adjusts a price then it comes out of their take and not the artist’s — assumptions aside, this should be specifically stipulated in the contract. As long as I am paid what is agreed contractually then I would be happy. (Do you get the feeling I believe in contracts for these business relationships?)

 

[Paul M. Kaplowitz]

Compromise of one's artistic integrity

Odie you open a complex and interesting line of thought. I am not a psychiatrist ( although when I was younger I was a freelance Gynecologist) so I can only comment about my feelings when I am offered less than the asking price on one of my pieces. When a person makes me an offer I feel that it is not a commentary on the value of the piece, but an attempt to get a better price. If they didn't like my work they woundn"t offer at all. I have never felt that the price was a measure of my worth as an artist or as a person. It is not even a measure of what they can afford to spend, very wealthy people bargain as much as working class people, maybe more. Nor do I think it devalues my art. People including myself like to feel they bought something wonderful at a great price. What do y'all think? Paul K.

 

[Odie]

And a Merry Christmas to you too.

Yes, I was speaking about face-to-face interactions. I doubt I would negotiate at all for online sales - I need those strong personal vibes I get from f2f conversations in order to feel that a person appreciates the piece enough for me to let it go for a different amount than what I marked it. That’s a touchy-feely sort of payback I get; a part of me wants them to have the piece so I’m willing to help make that happen.

As to gallery sales, I assume if a gallery adjusts a price then it comes out of their take and not the artist’s — assumptions aside, this should be specifically stipulated in the contract. As long as I am paid what is agreed contractually then I would be happy. (Do you get the feeling I believe in contracts for these business relationships?)

Right.......Unless it was someone I knew personally, I'd hesitate to do business with any gallery, without a contract.

I've never shown my work in art galleries where there wasn't a contract. I'm not showing in art galleries now, but when I did, I'm not aware of any bargaining going on......but, there may have been without my knowing it. If there was, it was completely at the discretion of the gallery, and solely adjusted to the commission they took. That would be fine by me, as long as I still got my 60% of the original retail price. There was never anything in the contract that allowed for bargaining the amount I got.

Odie you open a complex and interesting line of thought. I am not a psychiatrist ( although when I was younger I was a freelance Gynecologist) so I can only comment about my feelings when I am offered less than the asking price on one of my pieces. When a person makes me an offer I feel that it is not a commentary on the value of the piece, but an attempt to get a better price. If they didn't like my work they woundn"t offer at all. I have never felt that the price was a measure of my worth as an artist or as a person. It is not even a measure of what they can afford to spend, very wealthy people bargain as much as working class people, maybe more. Nor do I think it devalues my art. People including myself like to feel they bought something wonderful at a great price. What do y'all think? Paul K.

Hey......it's the principle of the thing....harrumph! The price is the price, dag nab it!

(Ha,ha.....I'm just kidding! )

Kidding aside, though......I can see how this subject of bargaining, when and how to do it, will have many varied responses and philosophies involved.

ko

 

[Gretch Flo]

bargaining

I have rarely had people at craft shows haggle. One time in an affluential community craft show a woman was going to buy 3 small bowls priced from $25-35. and say the total was $85. She asked if I would take $75. I said "no-if the truth were known I "earn" less than half the minimum wage". She was very apologetic and paid the full amount.
Merry Christmas everyone. Have had a very busy 2 days with family and preparing dinner tonite. This is as it should be!!!!. Gretch

 

[Breck Whitworth]

Bargaining with customers

I will bargain with a customer over bowls and utility items similar to what was mentioned in the first post. It depends on factors, but I almost never bargain with an art piece. Those that are Art where the price is subjective no. I am not offended by a lower offer. I just usually won't even consider it. By bargaining with a customer for a $200. bowl and getting $185. on the last day of an art festival no problem. But I have found that by holding out for the price I want for an art piece is usually worth it in the long run. The bowls pay the bills the art is extra for me. I have to agree telling the customer what my cost is, never. Like what has been said they don't really care, only the bottom line. I have been known quite often to have a slightly higher price on certain pieces just so I can drop the price a little because winning (getting a discount) is so important to some customer especially many of the ladies I sell to. I will gladly tell any customer how long it takes for my process to make a bowl ready for sale.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I will bargain with a customer over bowls and utility items similar to what was mentioned in the first post. It depends on factors, but I almost never bargain with an art piece. Those that are Art where the price is subjective no. I am not offended by a lower offer. I just usually won't even consider it. By bargaining with a customer for a $200. bowl and getting $185. on the last day of an art festival no problem. But I have found that by holding out for the price I want for an art piece is usually worth it in the long run. The bowls pay the bills the art is extra for me. I have to agree telling the customer what my cost is, never. Like what has been said they don't really care, only the bottom line. I have been known quite often to have a slightly higher price on certain pieces just so I can drop the price a little because winning (getting a discount) is so important to some customer especially many of the ladies I sell to. I will gladly tell any customer how long it takes for my process to make a bowl ready for sale.

Selling price is what you want for the piece. Of all things, the cost of the piece of wood is the least significant factor based on my personal observation. This is a bit off topic, but I wanted to mention auctions. Generally, this means that you don't receive any money because the turnings are donated to help raise money.

When you donate your best work to some charity or other fund raising event, it's a gift, but for personal satisfaction of the worth of the piece, do you have any expectations for the selling price? I admit that I hope that a piece will bring a nice price, but you never know. I donate some of my best pieces to Empty Bowls and they usually go for $40 to $60. That amount is in line with the selling prices for ceramic and pottery pieces so I feel good about my contribution. I also donate pieces to to my turning club's Christmas banquet. We have a live auction as a part of the banquet. The unspoken but underlying idea is that pieces go for inflated prices because that's the largest portion of our income for the year. In a sense, the auctioneer is bargaining with the crowd except that it's to increase the selling price rather than reduce it. Auctions create a different mindset where potential buyers are pitted against each other. Sometimes it's like a shark feeding frenzy and other times it's like when the fish aren't biting.

 

[hughie]

third party

As I do not sell at markets, nor do I sell in person. The potential customer sees only the price and deals through a third person on my behalf and for that they take a commission. There is no bargaining and the third person has no knowledge of cost.
So for me the know price and return is set long before its placed for sale.