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Parting Ways....

G

GothycDesigns

Joined
May 14, 2006
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Location
Vantucky, WA (Vancouver)
Website
www.myspace.com
Well Hello,

I have offically turned my first bowl. Wha-Hoo !!!! But I did have a scary moment when trying to part it. Granted my tools aren't the best, but its what I got. A cheap set from HF. The parting tool itself is a 1/8", but the shaft of it is also very narrow, I guess is the term. Probably a 1/4" wide.

So as I got to the point of needing to part the bowl, I figured I needed to drop the speed. Wasn't sure but it was a gut feeling. So I put it on the lowest speed I have which is like 1150 roughly. Its a Central Machinery from, guess where, HF. :eek: you say !!

As I part it till it gets about 1" thick and wham, the bowl tears off and flies to the floor. I was going to stop it there and pry it off with a flat head screwdriver or chisel, but it flew before I could get the tool released.

How do I keep this from happening in the future and was the speed wrong? :confused: Do I need to part during a faster setting? The bowl is about 4.5 -5" at the base. Pretty small bowl of Fig. Maple. Do I of course need a better stronger stiffer tool?

That seems to be the nerve racking part of the turning until I get used to it I guess. Any advise or article to read would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for your time. Happy Holidays to all.

Ray
~Gothyc Designs


P.S. The bowl is fine and landed in a pile of shavings. some small scratches but fixable.
 
Hmm, sounds like the tip of the tool got off the center point of the wood and caught, and possibly you were driving in too hard? I know there are lots of folks here who use a parting tool more than I do, hopefully they will Chime in quickly!

I tend not to use a parting tool unless I have miscalculated and not left myself much room to work the foot. I usually use my bowl gouge or a spindle gouge and slice the wood down to a nubbin, speeds around 500 or 600. I will stop at that point, then shut off the lathe and finish the cut as it slows. The bowl usually just drops into my hand. I find I have less finishing to do on the bottom that way as opposed to the parting tool.

I bet there will be alot of useful and varied approaches that get brought up to this issue! Look forward to reading them all!

Dave
 
I've never felt comfortable using the parting tool for final separation. For small vases turned between centers, I use the parting tool to get a final tenon, and then cut off with a saw (lathe stationary). Final touch up with a Dremel. For bowls, I leave a similar tenon, then finish the bottom by mounting on a (forget the name), doughnut chuck, or similar. "Forget the name" is a plywood disk mounted on a faceplate, with a groove turned to mate with the bowl's rim. Reverse mount the bowl with lots of duct tape or filament tape wrapped around to the back of the disk. Staple loose ends of the tape to avoid it whipping around. This likely won't work on a natural edge bowl with an irregular rim, and for others should be done before the bowl has a chance to warp.

Joe
 
Parting

My thought is that a parting tool is a spindle tool.

I have not parted off a bowl as you describe. I favor reverse chucking it between a pad on a faceplate and the ram on the tail stock. I turn the tenon away until I can easily cut off the nubin and finish the little spot by hand.

I find more success this way.

A
 
Couple of things to think about. First is orientation of the grain. Don't want to part flat as far as end grain. It's likely to split off. Besides, it's easy to scrape and sand the unparted section on face grain.

Second is clearance. You have to have room for the dust to eject and the piece to wobble as you get deeper. I take a generous extra widening pass so I'm cutting only half the gap at the last, and even that sometimes give me a tug if it's a long way in and my angle less than perfect. My Ryoba cuts just fine, so if it starts to feel grabby or the piece starts to wobble, it's power off, saw out. Remember that tool extension past the rest is still tool extension, and that the thinner the parting tool, the more likely to develop flex and catch or vibrate.

Everybody likes rules of thumb to get started. I part to 1/2" on long grain pieces, no less than 1" diameter on flat, and then only where I have great confidence in its grain structure.

Before someone brands it a rule of dumb, temper it for the speed of rotation, diameter, weight and species. Don't do it blindly. As soon as the wood begins to complain, stop.
 
GothycDesigns said:
...but it flew before I could get the tool released.
Click to expand...

Both wood and metal expand when there is heat. The friction would make your 1/8" wide parting tool wider than the 1/8" path it has cut. If you force the tool to cut deeper, it would certainly jam.

I was taught to use 1½ the width of the parting tool. Make the initial parting of about ½" or less deep; then move the parting tool left or right 1/16" and cut the second cut ½" or less deeper than the 1st cut. I alternate the cuts in this two positions to the diameter I am comfortable with. Then I saw it off or part completely off on smaller items. When I am using the side step cuts this way, only the ½" tip of my tool is buried in wood. Actually the wood tells me when I need to move the parting tool to the alternate position - when I start to feel the resistance.

When plunging in straight towards the center, it is a scraping action. It may generate more friction. If arching the parting tool towards the center, it is a peeling cut.

By nature of parting, the parting tool has a lot of overhang beyond the tool rest. The leverage is against us. When wrestling with a spinning lathe; the weakest link gave up first. I am glad it was your bowl and there was no harm done.

The best source of information is joining a local AAW chapter and attend the meetings.

Gordon
 
Ray,

If you have the Harbor Freight Model #34706 your low end speed is around 600 not 1150. Other than that I use the same parting tool but only until I have a small tenon left and then saw it off.


Jim
 
Stoppy, mine is the step below yours #45276.

It make sense to make a wider pass as you go further in. I was actually going to get it to about 1" tenon, stop and cut it off. But as mentioned it came off before I had the chance.

The lowest spped listed in the manual and on HF website is 1125rpm which is also stated on the sticker on the lathe. When I get enough money saved I'll invest into something better, maybe a Nova !!

I will do more to take just enough and do a final cut and finish with a dremel.
I use a dremel for a final pass on my bottle stoppers head where the center has left a small hole.

Since i do not have a chuck system yet. I did manage to make a press plate to match the rim of the bowl. But didn't think to use tape. I have a large live center and getting that last bit off the bottom was a little bit uneven and then I finished it on a edge of a belt sander to take it down the rest. It now rests on the counter evenly. I'd post a pic, but not sure how to do it here. Looks different than other sites I've posted on.

Thanks for the input. I'll take it easy during the parting and use more gapping and then a final cut of the tenon.


Thanks,
Ray

P.S. I have been looking into some kind of group or chapter. There is a Woodcraft in Tigard, OR that has classes ans thought to join a few to get some hands on with someone looking over me. :)
 
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In my orignal posting, I mentioned that my parting tool was an 1/8". I have now found out, by looking on the original package I found when cleaning the shop working on another project, that it is a 1/16" parting tool. Being that thing and using on a bowl, I now know that size of tool should not be use on a bowl turning of the 5" bowl I completed.

Well, as mentioned, while also cleaning my shop a little, I found some 1/8" hardened steel. Tonight I made it into a 1/8" parting tool. Overall its about
1¼" wide x 1/8" thick and 11" long including handle. I also had a piece of
¼"x½" steel and made a round nose scraper of it. These tools I made, and proud of it, have helped me in the turning of the second bowl of Mahogany.

I would say now, I kinda have a bug for making some more tools. Any suggestions on where to look? :D

Thanks,
Ray
~Gothyc Designs
Vancouver, WA
 
GothycDesigns said:
I would say now, I kinda have a bug for making some more tools. Any suggestions on where to look? :D
Click to expand...


I made two parting tools from sawzall blades. One is 1/16" thick the other is 1/32" thick.

1150 rpms is a bit fast for parting off a bowl for a beginner. Take a look at how Bill G takes care of the bottom of a bowl. http://www.enter.net/~ultradad/bowljig.html
 
Ray,

Your lathe is a mis-match for doing bowls. It has 14" swing, but the slowest speed is 1125. It is always tempting to push the limit to do something bigger. For a 14" X 40" lathe that weights only 88 lb., that is extremely light duty (I am generous). One of our Club member had a similar lathe. I don't know whether it is the same model. On his the joint between the sheet metal of the head stock and the ways was not solid. When he tried to clamp down on the tail stock, we can see the head stock moves. It was very dangerous. The head stock and tail stock would never line up after chucking up something between centers. Combined with the high speed, accidents are waiting to happen.
We don't want to lose a fellow of similar interest. Nor do you want your spouse to enjoy the big settlement without you.
I am not bashing Harbor Freight, I own and use some of their cheap tools. But I will not touch this lathe. For a starter lathe, I would recommend a Jet mini lathe. It has only 10" swing, but it performs well for almost anything at that capacity. When you want to upgrade to a bigger lathe, it has a very high resale value. The real cost of ownership may be even lower than the HF lathe. As a matter of fact, most people I know who upgraded from the Jet mini keep theirs.
Before you have your real lathe, don't put any ballast to weight down the lathe in order to reduce the vibration. Listen to your lathe, the vibration is the way your lathe is trying to tell you something is wrong. Stand to the side and shut it off.

Gordon
 
lathe speed

I never part with the lathe going that fast. Usually back it down to about 350-500. Part it most of the way down then finish with 1 hand holding the tool and one hand on the bowl. When I break free the bowl drops in my hand. Good Luck and Fun Turning!
 
GothycDesigns said:
I have offically turned my first bowl. Wha-Hoo !!!!
Click to expand...
But didja show a picture, Ray??? Nooooooo. Tsk. :cool2:

You've gotten great advice, but one piece seems to be kind of ignored, and I think it's REALLY important to your safety that you hear it.

Angelo reminded us all that the parting tools, like roughing gouges, are really designed to be used on SPINDLES, not bowls. So, if you're doing an END-grain bowl, a parting tool used as described above would be a good thing. Always in a total groove that is at least 1/16" wider than your parting tool. Maybe 1/32" if you've got a skinny parting tool, a great cutting edge and an even greater eye!

Because of the nature of wood, cutting a side-grained bowl away with the parting tool is going to make the tool want to dig into the endish grain or at least bump and chatter along enough to throw most any project.

Merry Christmas to all!

Curious... Ray, does this model have a separate enough motor where you might be able to change the size of the stepped pulley? If so (and if I have my physics right...always a question there), you could increase the size of the pulley on the motor and slow the speed of your project.
 
DeanGThomas said:


Curious... Ray, does this model have a separate enough motor where you might be able to change the size of the stepped pulley? If so (and if I have my physics right...always a question there), you could increase the size of the pulley on the motor and slow the speed of your project.
Click to expand...

My physics is rusty also. I am afraid increasing the size of the pulley on the motor end speeds up the lathe.
I would not spend any more money on this lathe. A 10" x 14" Jet mini lathe weights 69 pounds. I can't see how HF can make a safe 14" X 40" lathe for a mere 88 pounds without using expensive alloy. It would be better to cut the loss before something bad happens.

Gordon
 
Yes, the motor is separate. I can change the speed by moving the belt to 1 of 4 step pulley. As mentioned the lowest speed is 1125. I took some suggestions ealier in the thread and improved the parting tool to a 1/8" of harder material, plus for christmas I got a new turning set that includes a 1/4" parting tool.

Yes, I will take all the brunts about how my lathe is not good, I will get a new lathe when I can. That is always on my mind. Because of the lathe as it is, I'm not pushing it beyond it can handle. I've mostly have turned pens on it, which is probably the only thing it could really be made for or narrow spindle work. But to help show, here is a pic of a Mahagany bowl I just made for a Christmas gift. Hope the image will come thru. This is the second bowl I made which is much better than the first one, which is below.

MahoganyBowl2.jpg


As per Dean, which pic did I need to put up? One of the lathe itself. I can do that. Oh, never mind, it was to be of the first bowl. I had to set up a photobucket acct. Here it is.

MapleBowl.jpg


Again, thanks for all the advice, any and all will help me to be more of a turner. I also got a book and a video by Richard Raffen, both are very good. the video is only 20 min. but very technical for what it is.

Later,
Ray


P.S. I parted the bowl and made ¼" tenon and then cut it free. Thats probably what I'll be doing for a while no matter the lathe, or until I get a chuck for it that will then be used on any new lathe I get in the future.

RKIII
 
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In addition to all of the other good suggestions, a 5 inch base is too big for a small bowl, but it is also very common for the first few bowls that most of us turn. In general, smaller bottoms look nicer and are easier to deal with. You may be using the faceplate that came with the lathe which is much too big -- a faceplate of two or three inches is more appropriate for small bowls. About the biggest that you will need on that lathe is four inches. Get a scroll chuck as soon as you can and you will probably not use the faceplates much anymore for mounting bowls. Once you get a scroll chuck, life will become easier and you will not normally need the use of a parting tool for bowls.

Bill
 
Hey Bill,

I have thought about a smaller faceplate or as you call a scroll chuck. That would be nice to have a narrower bottom. When I made the Mahogany bowl.
I used a piece of fir CVG as a sacrifice pirce to the faceplate. Then hot glued the blank onto that, but waited for suffiecient time for cool down, plus colder weather and a cold shop helped with that.

And then turned down to desired shape. Understandingly the first bowls to be wide, but if I could've gone smaller I would've.

I am in the process of looking to a chuck for the lathe as stated before, I think the best one at this time would be the Midi chuck by Teknatool which I can get, hopefully at a local Woodcraft. If not I'll order it online. the dia. of that chuck is 3.5" and comes with a worm screw as a standard. If your suggestion of a 4" at max would be best then this should compliment it all together. Since my lathe is a ¾" x 10TPI shaft, I'll have to get an adapter from PSI to make it a 1" x 8TPI. Plus I've been reading some suggestions by Richard Raffan that will help as well.

Again I thank all so very much in the advice given and will welcome any and many more any time. As stated a while back anyone is welcome to contact by email to dicuss any further as to not to get too off track at times I seem to cause. :D :cool2: Happy New Year !!!

Later,

Ray K.
~Gothyc Designs
Vancouver, WA
 
Teknatool products are available close to you here,http://www.kmstools.com/ as well. At least close by the standard I live with, where its 200 to Woodcraft.

I whacked a long grain bowl with a tool rest on a carelessly untightened banjo last evening. When a 6" piece is on a 1/2" stub through a 1/4" bottom ... well it's an ugly repair, but I like the form of the bowl. Got back on the horse for a half hour after dinner and made similar, but they're never truly the same.

Oh well. probably not the last time, and definitely not the first.
 
GothycDesigns said:
Since my lathe is a ¾" x 10TPI shaft, I'll have to get an adapter from PSI to make it a 1" x 8TPI.
Click to expand...

Ray,

Stop the bleeding, don't put any good money on that odd size spindle. You can use jam chuck method to reverse turn the bottom of your bowl to match the interior curve. There are a lot of methods to do a nice bowl without a chuck. A chuck is a gadget for convenience. Your priority is getting a real lathe.

The general guide line for the diameter of the base of a bowl is 1/3 the diameter of the bowl size. For some reason, maximizing the use of a wood blank seldom makes a bowl appealing to the eyes.

Gordon
 
Hi Gordon,

Well one things is for sure, If I can find $500-$1000 free of never having to repay cash, I would surely invest into a new lathe, plus needed tools. But alas...
I do not think I'm that lucky to receive such a gift. :D So I'll try to make do with what I have to earn some of that extra cash.

I do not plan on putting major money into this HF lathe. In another post, I said that if I got a new lathe, it would become my buffing wheel system.

If you have any articles or websites showing the jam chuck, and how to construct it, I'll surely look it over. R&D no problem...(Research & Develeopment) :)

Or if anyone knowe of any ways of making money online with surveys or something, I'll look into it as well :eek:


Later,
Ray

P.S. The photos in the members galleries, how does one get to post their work? Does membership fees need to be paid in order to get your work shown??
 
GothycDesigns said:
Hi Gordon,

Well one things is for sure, If I can find $500-$1000 free of never having to repay cash, I would surely invest into a new lathe, plus needed tools. But alas...
I do not think I'm that lucky to receive such a gift. :D So I'll try to make do with what I have to earn some of that extra cash.

I do not plan on putting major money into this HF lathe. In another post, I said that if I got a new lathe, it would become my buffing wheel system.

If you have any articles or websites showing the jam chuck, and how to construct it, I'll surely look it over. R&D no problem...(Research & Develeopment) :)
Click to expand...
Ray,

I fully understand your situation.
I will PM some jam chuck information for you to night.
You live close to several AAW sub chapters.
http://www.woodturner.org/community/chapters/members.pl?submit=Chapter+List
Contact them and attend their meetings. You will have more resources than you can absorb there. They usually have books , videos and DVDs for members to check out. Some members are more than happy to give you some hands on mentoring for free. The woodturning cultural is different. The average age is older, retired or close to retire, but most are generous and willing to share their knowledge. A lot of time, members sell their lathe when they upgrade or moving to nursing home. You may be able to pick up an older but safe lathe for almost nothing. A lot of Clubs have raffles and auctions that you can get excess wood and tools donated by other members. I would say if you have problem getting helps from your local club; you need some serious professional help about your character.

Some older members are less proficient with computers; you may be able to barter with them for some tools they have excess. Offer your help first, most will not disappoint you.

Gordon
 
Reverse turning bowls without using chuck

GothycDesigns said:
If you have any articles or websites showing the jam chuck, and how to construct it, I'll surely look it over. R&D no problem...(Research & Develeopment) :)
Click to expand...

http://www.woodturns.com/articles/tools/mounting_wood.htm

Pg. 79 ~ 80 Taunton's Complete Illustrated Guide to Turning By Richard Raffan has very good pictures and illustrations on reverse turning.

4-jaw scroll chucks were a relatively new invention in the history of woodturning. No doubt they are convenient to use; but you can do without them.

Gordon
 
Thanks Gordon for the article. I think I've seen it before a while back. The AAW chapters listed for WA are a bit away from me. But I'll check with them and see if they know of anything closer.

Happy New Year to All!!!!

Later,
Ray K.
~Gothyc Designs
Vancouver, WA
 
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