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Reshaping Bent McNaughton Center Saver Knives

bonsaipeter

Peter Toch
Joined
Jul 28, 2004
Messages
75
Likes
6
Location
Roanoke, VA
I do a bit of coring using the McNaughton Center Saver system. On occasion I will get a catch severe enough to cause the knife to bend downward and even get slightly twisted. This renders the knife nearly useless for further use. In the past I've been able to "bend" the knife back into shape by holding the tang/handle in a sturdy vise and with a large pipe wrench and lots of grunting I've been able to pull up the knife into proper shape. In order for the knife to properly slide into the kerf that it is cutting it needs to have its curve at a constant radius otherwise it will bind in the kerf. My method above does not always achieve the needed constant radius. Therefore, I'm looking for suggestions on how to reshape bent knives to their intended constant radius? Any an all suggestions welcome.

Thanks, Peter Toch
 
I didnt have good luck getting my bent cutter back in good shape. They seem to be tempered to a spring hardness. I just bought some steel and bent my own from.scratch to replace that cutter.
 
Mine cold bent back in just fine. I went to Harbor Freight and got a giant adjustable wrench to get enough leverage. To change the radius, you'll need an arbor press or hydraulic press. Also available at HF.
 
I agree with Dave and did the same thing. I had no problems with the three smaller knives. The two big ones bent simply because of the amount of unsupported steel. I also bought the Oneway System and have had no problems over the last 5 years and I core out 17+ bowls frequently.
 
Plus 2 on the Easy Core. However, I occasionally miss not have the McNaughton straight knife to use as a parting tool on bigger stock.
 
I also gave up on the McNaughton and now use the Oneway and I also use the Woodcut Bowl Saver. The Woodcut is the first one with just two knives and when I need to core a small piece it is super easy and quick to set up. I spent a couple days with Chris Ramsey and learned how versatile the Oneway Coring System really is as he opened my eyes as to what the system can do.
 
My McNaughton comes out when needed - thats what I like best about it. Takes only seconds to go from turning to coring. If the blades are twisted or the curve looks odd the bed ways and a long handle can tweak them into shape quickly and you’re on your way. With a retainer on the turret shaft, the turret height never varies and a quick check shows the knife tip at or below center throughout its travel. These are, at least for me, the keys to coring without making funnels. 30 second deployment.

The other nice thing about the McNaughton system is the value on the used market - its fairly easy to find an owner that just couldn’t master the over-hyped learning curve (its actually a pretty simple tool to learn) and is willing to part with a nearly unused set relatively cheaply. Nearly all clubs have a few...
 
So when you BENT your knives......were you cutting an especially hard wood, not cutting slow or
is the Mcnaughton steel just not tuff enough?
Sounds like this has happened a # of times so my pea brain says steel fail......????

good info to know.....IMHO
 
Every lathe tool has a learning curve.
The McNaughton tools have a learning curve that is dependent on the person using the tools. The tools perform as they should, if they were harder in temper you would run the risk of breaking them if there was a catch. With the number, size and radius of cutters you will not find another system that provides the same level of versatility. The McNaughton cutters are like any other lathe tool, if you don't use a sharp tool you will build up heat and the wood billet will swell up from the heat and wedge the tool during turning, this is the most common reason for bending a cutter. On the deeper cores you are supposed to take several passes into the core to provide more room for the cutter blade to make the radius without building up friction. Cutting corners to make a single pass at a deep core is the other main reason for catching these tools. A standard parting tool will easily catch on a wood blank if you try to exceed the limits of the tool by making one pass on a deep part, the wood heats up and compresses against the tool and stalls the lathe or pulls the tool from your hands. The other reason for catches is allowing the cutter to drop below the center line of the lathe, a skilled turner knows that the further the blade enters into the cut the blade is flexing and you need to adjust the angle of the handle to correct the cutting tip from dropping too far.
 
So when you BENT your knives......were you cutting an especially hard wood, not cutting slow or
is the Mcnaughton steel just not tuff enough?
Sounds like this has happened a # of times so my pea brain says steel fail......????

good info to know.....IMHO

Like Mike said, there is a learning curve ... and it is something to consider. A lot of turning tools aren't very forgiving in untrained hands (skew, hook tool, etc). It's all too easy to blame the tool rather than admit lack of proficiency. The Oneway coring tool has a much easier learning curve, but a considerably steeper price so you need to decide if coring is worth the expense.
 
I’m just beginning to use the McNaughton. Got a few catches and a few successes so far. In watching Robo’s YouTube video on this, I see he recommended regrinding the diamond point into a flat chisel tip, to change it from cutting a 1/2” shaving to a 3/8” shaving. Before I go and do something with my new tool that I won’t be able to undo, I wonder if anyone who has had a problem with catches has tried this with good results. Reed, do you still recommend this change? Thanks all!
 
quick check shows the knife tip at or below center throughout its travel. These are, at least for me, the keys to coring without making funnels. 30 second deployment.

This is confusing to me. Reed Gray and Dale Bonertz recommend up to a quarter inch above center, not below. I have only tried the McNaughton a few times and am not yet up the learning curve.
 
I think the reason I get catches with the McNaughton is that I let the cutter get too close to center. I think it needs to stay at or slightly above center at all times. What probably happens with me is I start at center but as it gets deeper it has a tendency to drop down.
 
I also gave up on the McNaughton and now use the Oneway and I also use the Woodcut Bowl Saver. The Woodcut is the first one with just two knives and when I need to core a small piece it is super easy and quick to set up. I spent a couple days with Chris Ramsey and learned how versatile the Oneway Coring System really is as he opened my eyes as to what the system can do.
I too opted for the Woodcut Bowl Saver (with 3 cutting blades) and I am completely satisfied in its performance. Wet or dry it does the job...and it is a snap to get it mounted and running.
 
At one time I started to do an article on the three bowl savers (unfortunately someone came out with one before me. It wasn't what I had in mind but it was out there and they wouldn't do another). Woodcut lent me a Bowl Saver Max3 and I used it to core the hardest (and I mean hard) piece of dry Ash about 14" in diameter. It was kind of scary but it cored it without problem. It is very easy to get two cores per blade. Mike Mahoney is the best I've ever seen with the McNaughton and he uses it with the point on the blade. Chris Ramsey does a little grinding on the Oneway cutter and I can almost guarantee there is no one better with the Oneway. Mike hunter is coming out with a carbide cutter for the Oneway that is different than the carbide cutter from Oneway. You know all three will do the job just that one of them may work better for you than the other two.
 
I so still recommend a square tip on the cutter. I have retipped a couple of my blades with tantung, which is what the cutter material on my Big Ugly tools are made from. I kept the same shape. I also have one cutting tip from Oneway that I had them send me that was hardened but they didn't cut that chip breaker tip on. I tapered it slightly so it wouldn't bind in the cut. It cut far better than their original design. I was told that that point helped keep the cutter on track, rather than drifting. Not that I could tell. Woodcut also uses a square tip. The only advantage with the spear point on the McNaughton is that when coring larger blanks you can 'fish tail' as Mike Mahoney says, which is a gentle side to side sweep as you core. This opens up the kerf. This is not necessary on smaller cores, but you can't do a larger core, like a 12+ inch by 6 inch bowl without opening up the kerf. This has to do with the geometry of the blade. They do not follow a perfect arc of the circle, with the last 1 1/2 inches of the blade going more straight. This is why they always drift to the outside. This causes the blade to bind in the cut. Add being slightly below center, and this adds to catches. Mike was the inspiration behind the spear point design, which he said helped when you had to cut the core totally off rather than turning down close and then breaking the core out. Again, for me, I have found that if you want to cut a blank totally off, like when you are coring end grain, burl, or crotch wood, you have to have that tip at dead center, pretty much the same thing you have to do with a gouge or NRS if you want to clean up dead center. I have learned to feel it when the blade is below center. Most of the time, since I tend to use long handles on my McNaughton, I just lower the handle a bit. Note here, this is master class only... You can also raise the tool rest a bit, which is 'safer'.

There have been comments, and I don't remember who, about the spear point helping to keep the blade on track, kind of like with the Oneway bit. I had the original McNaughton blades, and the cutter was dog eared off to the outside of the bowl with a bevel angling back from the point, so kind of half of a spear point. I had heard others were using different grinds. I tried it angling to the inside, the outside, and straight across. The straight across seemed to work best for me. As I said about the Oneway, the straight across grind cuts far better for me than their spear point does. There was no problem with it tracking off center. I also tried a slightly rounded nose, which I do on some of my new McNaughton blades just so I don't grind away so much usable metal. I still prefer square nose.

As near as I can tell, the main cause for making funnels with the McNaughton comes from aiming wrong. The tendency is to try to match the outside curve of the bowl with a blade that has the same curve. That does work, but then when coring, the tendency is to try to aim for a cut that gives you an even wall thickness all the way to the bottom of the bowl. This method would work fine if you are making the tipsy/earthquake bowls which have a round bottom. If you aim for even wall thickness, you come out right on your chuck jaws. If the curve of your blade is smaller than the outside curve of the bowl, then you can start out for even wall thickness as the extra curve will steer you away from the chuck jaws. If you have a blade that is flatter than the curve of the bowl, then you have to aim more to the center of the bowl rather than down the side. I used to hold my blades up over the bowl in the arc I planned for my cuts, which I think is essential for helping you aim. Now, with experience, I don't need to do that all of the time, but some times I do. I did see one video of a turner who actually penciled in lines on the bowl where he wanted the bottom of the core to be. Then he held the blade up over the blank to see where it should go. Great visual for beginners. Now I have to see if I can find that video. He did say that he liked his cutter slightly below center. For me, that is NEVER. When using scrapers on the inside of a bowl, you ALWAYS have the cutter at, or slightly above center.

The McNaughton had a lot of flex built into the system. To set the height, use the longest blade you have. Really pull up on the handle to get the cutter as low as it will go. This gives you a point that is 'close' to where you should be cutting. This does not take into account what happens when the cutter is actually cutting. That is a lot of pressure on the tip of the blade. If you ever have broken off a core, and then try to cut that stub off with the coring tool, if the cutter is at dead center with no cutting pressure, put the tip into the wood and it will drop/flex as much as 1/2 inch. I always use a collar under the tool rest. This keeps it from vibrating loose and down, which you don't want. You can also, as you get near the bottom, raise it slightly off of the collar to keep cutting height near or slightly above center. I guess you could make spacers as well for 1/4 inch increments. If you try to get your collar height set by using one of the smaller blades, you will be way below center when using a larger/longer blade.

Not sure if they are still doing it, but Woodcut used to have their cutter, which is made from Stellite, slightly concave on top rather than flat. It was supposed to help with chip ejection. I don't have as much experience with it as I do the McNaughton, but it did seem to help. The problem with the McNaughton and the 'fish tail' method was that it seemed, to me, to make the sides of the kerf more jagged, as opposed to straight and some what smooth, and I would get more chip jams when coring. Same with making 2 passes down to open up the kerf. Single straight down cuts seem to have less chip jams.

robo hippy
 
Robo Hippy,
Thank you so much for this detailed response. I am looking forward to grinding one of my cutters square and seeing how that works for me, also being careful to stay slightly above center. I’m, at the moment, working with large blanks of very straight grained ash, and hopeful that I’ll make good progress.
Thanks again!
 
Found that video. Again, he says that he prefers to be slightly below center 'so it is doing a scraping cut' which I disagree with. His lay out approach is pretty good though. Not sure how the link will work as I have been getting a funny 'problem with loading the video' and a 'learn how' link to click and then it works. No clue...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOAfJZEKCFc&t=348s


robo hippy
 
Link works fine. I’ve actually watched this video also. Looks to me like he is forcing the tool into the wood, and having a rougher ride, quite a bit more than on your video.
 
I used to hold my blades up over the bowl in the arc I planned for my cuts, which I think is essential for helping you aim. Now, with experience, I don't need to do that all of the time, but some times I do. I did see one video of a turner who actually penciled in lines on the bowl where he wanted the bottom of the core to be. Then he held the blade up over the blank to see where it should go. Great visual for beginners.
I did this a few times (holding the cutter on the bowl) and, after a few funnels, found that I wasn't holding it level - I was laying it on the bowl which totally distorted the angles. My bad.

So something I did, which helped me, was I drew out the blades on a sheet of plexiglas, continuing the arc of the blade off its end. I also marked the tip of the blade.
D85ED8AD-7A83-4B15-ABBB-2C9FEFC78CF1_1_105_c.jpeg
I can place the plexi on top of the bowl, and align the arc and the tool tip mark with the cut I want to make. With the tool in the rest (held in place with tape or magnets) I can then move the banjo to line up the tool with its drawing on the plexi.

In order for this to work, I do have to get up so I can look straight down thru the plexi at the top of the bowl. I have a sliding headstock and a shelf under the lathe so I can stand on that and straddle the bed ways behind the headstock.
 
Dave, this is a fascinating and creative solution. When you use the plexiglas to line up the tool rest, you orient it so the tool tip in your image is at the face of the bowl blank?
 
Dave, this is a fascinating and creative solution. When you use the plexiglas to line up the tool rest, you orient it so the tool tip in your image is at the face of the bowl blank?
Right. I move the plexi so the tool tip is where the cut will begin, and align the arc ("path of the blade") on the bowl. Then I can sight down to the tool handle to get it lined up.
 
Dave, that is a good idea. Anything to help visualize the intended path. There is a laser set up for the McNaughton, and it helped, but I would have made it differently...

robo hippy
 
This complexity involving sharpening, aligning, etc., the McNaughtons is the reason that I went with the Woodcut. I tinkered with a borrowed set of McNaughton's for 2 days before I threw in the towel. The learning curve is just too ugly when all you want to do is to save some wood in a rough state.
 
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