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Reverse turn or move headstock?

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turned my first bowl the other day. Nothing to shout about but my wife liked it.

I noticed I was leaning over quite a bit when I was doing the inside of the bowl. So much so that my back (already an issue) was bothering me when i was done. I just could not get to the inside walls without leaning across the bed.

I have thought of moving the headstock down to the other end and standing facing the headstock at the tail stock end, or reverse turning.

If i do the former It seems I would need to take the tail stock off if I stand at the end - not a big deal but putting it on and taking it off for each new bowl seems silly.

I have not yet tried reverse turning. But have seen one video.

Any and all thoughts appreciated..

D
 
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The tailstock pretty much has to be removed and replaced, sometimes multiple times through the course of a given project.
Some lathes have features or options that make it easier to get it out of the way but room to swing your tool handle is pretty much essential.
 
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A swing away is a nice option for the tail stock if it is available for your lathe, but as Forrest says, these don't always get the tailstock completely out of the way for turning when the headstock is moved to the tail of the bed. Depends on the swing away design.

You will probably be better off turning from the tail of the lathe rather than reverse turning at the head. Even if your chuck/faceplate has a set screw there is a pretty high likelyhood that the chuck will unscrew from the spindle with the forces of turning. You can get away with a few minutes of light cuts, but with heavy or long duration turning there is a real risk the chuck will come flying off.

Instead of reverse turning you could look at standing on the backside of the lathe and turning from there--if you can reach a stop switch.

But really, just turn from the tail. That's why the headstock slides.
 

hockenbery

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You need to keep your back straight when turning.
you can do this over the lathe bed. On many lathes the tailstock needs to be removed to allow the handle to move through an arc while hollowing.

however, if you have a sliding headstock you may find it easier to stand straight in front of the bowl.

If a swinger or tilt attachment is available that will reduce the lifting.
A lot of folks slide their tailstock onto an inexpensive table topped cart so they can wheel it out of the way. Not much lifting.
 

Timothy Allen

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Another option is to stand on the back side of the lathe and work from there -- helps if you have movable controls....
 
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I never got comfortable trying to turn inreverse. I’m fortunate to have a Robust tilt-away tailstock. However many have made a cart setup to side their tailstock on and off.
 
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I have a swing-away tailstock on my PM3520C ... not as friendly as the Robust tilt-away, but a heck of a lot easier than lifting that beast off/on to the lathe.
 

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As Al Hockenbery said, posture is very important while turning. If your lathe isn't the right height that can certainly impact your posture. I have had three back surgeries and don't have room for any more hardware so I know about back pain. I really like the tilt-away tailstock on my Robust lathe. Something else that works very well is a hydraulic table cart from Harbor Freight. Just raise the table up level with the lathe bed and slide the tailstock over. Then roll the cart out of the way. I have found these hydraulic table carts so handy that I have two of them.
 

hockenbery

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noticed I was leaning over quite a bit when I was doing the inside of the bowl. So much so that my back (already an issue) was bothering me when i was done. I just could not get to the inside walls without leaning across the bed.

When I hollow a bowl my back is straight. I can see to the inside bottom of the bowl.
With an open curved shape I can see the inside sidewall.
I attached a short video that shows the hollowing process I use.

21A18225-E7B3-4089-8379-6C414015204D.jpeg

Rough hollowing a bowl -

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flw8LwQqGQU
 

Dave Landers

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I almost always turn the insides of my bowls and hollow forms while standing at the end of the lathe with the headstock slid to the end of the lathe. Better posture, better access, and better view of what you're doing.

I happen to have a swing-away on my Powermatic, but before I got that I just made a little stand out of scrap 2x4s. It was just a block to set the tailstock on. Had a gap in the middle for where the locking plate goes. I could set the tailstock on that rather than have it teetering on the locking bolt - felt less like it'd damage anything. I didn't have a wheeled cart like some do, but I did keep a space clear on a table near the tail of the lathe for the tailstock. You don't want to be lowering and lifting that thing to the floor all the time - oof.
 
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I remove my tail, move the banjo/head to the end. Bowls, makes it easier. When trying to do hollow form, to me, it's a must do. I want to eventually get the swing-away attachment but until then, I just deal with the weight. I have a pretty bad back so I just go slow, I'm doing it for enjoyment, not production.
 
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Well, the whole purpose of the sliding headstock is that by moving it, you have both a bowl lathe (short bed) and a spindle lathe (long bed). First one I saw was the PM 3520A, and bought it because of that feature. I don't like turning bowls on long bed lathe orientation. If you do that, you have 2 choices. One is to bend over the lathe, which makes for a sore back. The other is to extend your arms out away from your body. This is the method that Stuart Batty uses. I prefer to keep my arms in close to my body, so I slide the headstock, or my Vic 240 has the best pivoting headstock set up I have seen. By doing so, you can stand up straight and keep your arms in close to your body and avoid the sore back. I have played around a bit with long bed set up since I have had to demo on them once in a while. I could get used to it, but just don't find it comfortable.

As for using the tailstock, I don't use it on bowls up to maybe 12 inch diameter. No real need, unless you are turning between centers. On bowls over that size, I do use the tailstock, except on the Vic where there is no place to mount it. There are many alternatives to having the tilt away set up, and you can do a search for them here. Tilt aways that are home made and even carts that are at lathe bed height and you roll the cart up and slide the tailstock off. The Vic has a pivot away where the bed extension pivots around to being parallel with the main bed. It works and keeps the point end of your live center away from your elbow... For mounting my bowl blanks, I prefer to drill a recess in the top of the blank and expand my chuck into that. No face plate or screws needed. With careful cutting, you can line up the grain perfectly. Well, some practice as well. Even with the tailstock on, you can stand at the end corner of the lathe and turn the outside of the bowl, and when you go to turn the inside, you can keep the tailstock on for a bit, then remove it. Then you can slide the headstock down a bit more and stand comfortably at the end of the lathe to finish turn the inside.

robo hippy
 
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Beginning woodturners tend to want or need to visually see the surface they are cutting with their tools. Any hollow vessel will require you to lean over the ways to see inside the vessel. As you gain more time with your tools you will gain muscle memory and be able to see the surface with your tools and not need to see the surface you are cutting with your eyes. There are a number of blind wood turners that "see" the surface with their cutting tools. If you are using proper tool control you should be relaxed when turning to be able to do this all day long. Many beginning turners are tensed up when holding the tools after they get a few bad tool catches. Once you master the different tools you will become more relaxed with your turning style and technique if you don't pick up any bad habits. Learning proper tool control from a mentor will speed the learning process and eliminate the potential for learning bad techniques.
 
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Thanks all. My lathe is a Laguna 1836 so a long bed. I do have a movable cart that I built to use as an outfeed table for my table saw so should be able to use it. My shop is a bit narrow so moving my lathe it to a place I can turn on both sides is a challenge.

MJ -u r absolutely right - I was leaning in to be able to what I was doing. I also have a tendency to hold all my tools too tight -even a hammer . I also would love a mentor - took a class in Tampa but that was before I had my lathe and been tougher with the virus in FL. Anyone who is near JAX and want a mentee - I am your guy. Free beer included - after turning of course.

RH - am not using tailstock for small bowls as you suggest. Right now only turning practice bowls out of some small poplar blanks i got cheap online. One day i hopefully will get to something larger than 18 inches. I have seen one of your videos on what you describe and plan to follow. Also -when you say "...alternatives to tilt away and can find them here" - does here mean in the forum or somewhere else?

Laguna does have a swing away extension but I need to check if its for the 1836. Might be something I look into a bit later.

Tim -not to go off topic but I see your pict is from a sailboat. Until 2017 I had a 47 Caliber I kept on Lake Eire. Miss sailing, but not the upkeep
 
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Moving your headstock is like changing your drive belt for more rpms......”oh you can do that, lol” I’m one of those, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it guys!! Maybe one day, haha!
 
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Agree with Bill, I have had a hydraulic cart I got at either harbor freight or northern tool several years ago and it is great. Helps me unload heavy items from my SUV, and lift heavy items to install on wall (tv). Also is strong enough to help assemble a new lathe since it can lift bed with no problem. So great for moving tailstock when required.
 

odie

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I've been turning on a fixed headstock long bed lathe since day one, and I can sympathize with the difficulties of turning bowl interiors with this configuration. Many of my bowls have inward slanting walls and undercut rims......this only compounds the difficulties of access. For me, the best way to handle this, is to stand with your body facing parallel to the spindle, not facing 90° to the spindle, like you'd do for bowl exteriors. I brace my hips on the lathe and tilt sideways slightly to the right. This is much better on your back than leaning forward. Even so, I still need to do the interior tool work without the need for bracing the tool to my body.....This becomes easier, as your skills progress.

I've always theoretically noted the hassle of sliding headstocks. If I were to get a new lathe (.....and it might happen someday! :)), I think the best overall solution would be a swivel head lathe.....somewhere between 15° and 30° ought to be just about right. That way the headstock is still directly over the most stable part of your lathe......and, the slightest of vibrations can, and will interfere with the cleanest possible cut that can be had. If you're like me, and want to put some serious detail work into your turning, then you can understand just how important eliminating the need for sanding can be to that end. :D

-----odie-----
 

Bill Boehme

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I've always theoretically noted the hassle of sliding headstocks. If I were to get a new lathe (.....and it might happen someday! :)), I think the best overall solution would be a swivel head lathe.....somewhere between 15° and 30° ought to be just about right. That way the headstock is still directly over the most stable part of your lathe

Here is the real world "hassle" of sliding the headstock:
  1. Raise the headstock locking lever
  2. Slide the headstock to the other end where it is over the tail end legs and therefore equally as stable
  3. Lower the headstock locking lever
  4. (optional, but recommended) Put a J-rest in the banjo
  5. Turn, turn, turn
If you have a rotating headstock, here are the likely steps:
  1. Unlock the headstock
  2. Rotate headstock to the desired detent
  3. Lock the headstock
  4. Remove tool rest from banjo
  5. Find dogleg and install on banjo
  6. Install tool rest on dogleg
  7. Turn, turn, turn
Personally, I don't think that either of those choices is a hassle. My first lathe (Delta 1440 Ironbed) had a headstock that did both -- rotate and slide -- NOT a good idea. Not to mention that it also had a cheap Reeves drive.
 

hockenbery

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Here is the real world "hassle" of sliding the headstock:
  1. Raise the headstock locking lever
  2. Slide the headstock to the other end where it is over the tail end legs and therefore equally as stable
  3. Lower the headstock locking lever
  4. (optional, but recommended) Put a J-rest in the banjo
  5. Turn, turn, turn
:) I think removing the tailstock is a reasonable first step
Moving the banjo is a reasonable second step
Moving the switch box is a reasonable last step :)

steps for using the outboard to hollow a bowl turned between centers.
1. Swing the control pendulum
2 flip the reverse switch
3. Mount piece in the Chuck
4. Turn turn turn
:) With a little luck J-rest is still in the outboard banjo
 
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When spindle turning it is so much easier to cut one way, than the other. It is as if a turner must train himself to be ambidexterous. I do a little outboard turning on my old school shop Delta lathe, and really don't mind switching to reverse turning.
 
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The Vicmark 240 has a headstock that rotates to 30 degrees, pre set, pull a pin, move to the 30 degree mark (it would help if they had indents to get it to exact position) insert the pin, set the tightening set screw on the pivoting plate, move the banjo and turn. With the 30 degree setting, you don't have to use the floor mounted tool rest set up, which is a bit cumbersome. It does work, but not for production turning.

Odie, you would have a problem with the red stop bar along the frame. If you lean against it, the lathe shuts down.... I only use the Vic for bowl turning so, at the 30 degree setting, no problem with the bar. Did a demo on a Vic 300 and kept hitting the stop bar. By the end of the demo, I was okay with it...

robo hippy
 
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Bill, I think you left out one aspect for green wood turners that would apply to both sliders and rotators, though probably not those with stainless steel ways. The headstock gets pretty stuck in place. Unless you are moving it frequently, there may be some grunting and groaning required to free it up to move.
 
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When I turn green wood, I wipe all bare surfaces with WD40. I wipe down the rails, move tail/banjo/head to one end, wipe, move to other end, wipe other end. Keeps them rust free and also helps them move easier on the rails.
 

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Obviously the solution is to have at least two different lathes! (that have the same spindle threads) At least one "regular" lathe (with a tailstock and everything), and at least one dedicated to hollowing out bowls! (no tailstock) Am I wrong? ;-)
 

hockenbery

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Obviously the solution is to have at least two different lathes! (that have the same spindle threads) At least one "regular" lathe (with a tailstock and everything), and at least one dedicated to hollowing out bowls! (no tailstock) Am I wrong? ;-)
That is one solution

Another is an outboard turning set up shortbed bowl lathe on the outboard side and an inboard longbed. Two lathes in one.

Stubby design with a sliding bed is nice set up. Shortbed or longbed depending on the bed position.

high quality sliding headstock lathes with routine maintenance work really well
 
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The various approaches to hollowing a bowl discussed in this thread is the reason I chose a Nova Galaxi. Quality pivoting and sliding headstock, with a well designed lathe mounted outboard toolrest that has almost zero footprint. No removing or reinstalling the tailstock. Simply unlock the headstock, rotate it to the desired location, lock it down, align tool rest (may have to move toolrest from the banjo, depends on what toolrest you use), and go. If desired the entire bowl can be turned outboard.
 

Bill Boehme

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@Bill Boehme , why don't you recommend a headstock that will both slide and rotate? Or was it the Delta lathe that you were recommending against?

If you try to please everybody, you may wind up not pleasing anybody ... at least that's how I feel about the Delta 1440 Boat Anchor (model 46-715) trying to implement too many features in a low-cost lathe. The way that the sliding and rotating headstock was implemented on the Delta made it very difficult to get the headstock aligned with the tailstock because a single locking lever controlled both functions. I would spend a lot of time trying to get the headstock perfectly aligned and then tightening the locking lever would cause the headstock to rotate and squirm sideways. I would try to compensate for how much I thought that the headstock would move, but it was a crapshoot. So, in the end, my lathe that supposedly was good for both rotating and sliding was relegated to being a fixed position headstock. That issue was just a minor annoyance compared to the sorry @$$ Reeves drive.
 

odie

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Then again, the perceived disadvantages of a fixed headstock long bed lathe are not outside of the range of possible solutions for the creative and obstinate woodturner! Ha,ha,ha! :D

Now, even though I believe I've solved these problems satisfactorily... If I could be talked out of my beloved Australian Woodfast lathe, I'd bypass the sliding headstock, and get a swiveling headstock lathe. From my POV, the swiveling headstock would be the best solution for me......and I understand that what would be best for me, may not be a universal solution for all woodturners. Buying a new lathe would not change a thing about what I am capable of producing. It would add a little convenience, and require me to re-do a bunch of fixtures and jigs that are made specifically to be used with the Woodfast lathe. Because of all that, I may never pull that trigger! :rolleyes:

-----odie-----
 
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I have found with sliding headstocks, that from time to time, you need to scrape off the under side of the headstock mount. Dust and chips have a way of working down under. Not really an issue until you want the headstock and tailstock to line up perfectly. Same issue with my old PM3520A, my American Beauty, and my Liberty. Haven't had the Vic long enough to know if it will have any problems with chips under the pivoting part. The plate is 10 or so inch diameter, and is flush fit all the way around. I don't expect any problems.

robo hippy
 

odie

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The Vicmark 240 has a headstock that rotates to 30 degrees, pre set, pull a pin, move to the 30 degree mark (it would help if they had indents to get it to exact position) insert the pin, set the tightening set screw on the pivoting plate, move the banjo and turn. With the 30 degree setting, you don't have to use the floor mounted tool rest set up, which is a bit cumbersome. It does work, but not for production turning.

Odie, you would have a problem with the red stop bar along the frame. If you lean against it, the lathe shuts down.... I only use the Vic for bowl turning so, at the 30 degree setting, no problem with the bar. Did a demo on a Vic 300 and kept hitting the stop bar. By the end of the demo, I was okay with it...

robo hippy

Howdy Robo.....:D

Actually, I probably wouldn't be leaning against the lathe, if the headstock had some swivel ability. Do you have to bring the headstock to the indents, or can you swivel the headstock to any position?

Robo, I've been looking for reviews of the VL240, and haven't found anything that was very enlightening. Have you considered doing a review of the VL240?

How well is that sleeve working that accepts 1" tool rest posts from the original 30mm? Is that a straight screw to the side of the tool rest post?

thanks,
-----odie-----
 
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Well, I haven't done a review specifically, but have commented a lot about it. It is my favorite bowl turning lathe. So, first, I prefer the headstock design to most other lathes that are now being made. A 'fad' has been to put all sorts of extensions on the outside of the headstock tower. In part, this has been about 'having more access to the back side of a bowl when reversed. In a couple of cases, this was also about being able to remove the headstock spindle in one piece rather than having to remove the entire headstock assembly if you need to replace the belt, and/or the belt. I think the first Laguna lathes were the worst about this as this 'protrusion' stuck out 4 or so inches off of the headstock tower. What this does is that by the time you put your chuck on, and then mount a bowl on it, the chuck jaws are much farther off of the lathe tower. Difference between my Vic and my Robust is about 2 full inches. As near as I can figure, this adds to vibration issues because it is cantilevered out farther. While Stuart Batty and others proclaim that the vibration issue is because of the fixed headstock vs the sliding or pivoting headstock, I will say that that could be a minimally contributing factor. If there is a sufficiently sized pressure plate on the underside of the headstock then this should be a non issue. I remember the early Jets had the same pressure plate on it that they used on their banjo. My Robust had a plate that is the length of the headstock tower. The Vic has a rounded form of top, which, if I needed it, would allow me more access to the outside of a bowl when reversed. The Vic has 3 stops for the pivoting headstock. One is in line with the bed, and is standard lathe position for turning spindles. It has one stop at 30 degrees, which is what I use for bowls. It has a 90 degree stop that I don't think I will ever use, but I have every thing I need, just in case. If I add another one to the shop, I won't get the outboard set up. I think the earlier versions of this lathe had the 'bowl' stop at 45 degrees. I think they switched, in part because the 45 degree setting would make using the banjo that comes with the lathe not very useful. I don't know if you could add additional stops or not. The set screw for the pivoting plate might not lock it down tight enough for heavy roughing cuts. For the lathes that have extended spindle mounts, there are no vibration issues when the tailstock is engaged. I would only use the tailstock for bowls over 14 or so inches, and I almost never turn them. With the extended headstocks, anything over 12 inches needs that tailstock support or very fine finish cuts. Not so good for roughing cuts.

I did turn once on a Vic 300, for a demo. The turner there had one of those sleeves for being able to use the standard 1 inch posts. It seems to work fine. I didn't have my inside bowl rests back then. Or maybe I just had my prototype, but can't remember...

When you turn spindles, well, me too, I tend to stand closer to the lathe body, and that did have me tripping that stop bar. I did get used to it.

One other thing the Vic does is that the minimum rpm is VERY slow, slower than my Robust AB, which I think is down to almost 15 to 18 rpm. The Vic also has a 3 speed pulley set up, as does my AB, which was one of the very early AB lathes made. I prefer the 3 speed set up. Mostly this has to do with coring and bowl turning. With the 2 speed set ups, I had 2 problems, and this was with the early versions of these lathes, and not the more modern ones, with the 'new and improved' 3 phase motor set ups. The slow speed range was great for coring, but too slow for some of the smaller bowls I was turning. High speed range generally didn't work for coring, and it would want to trip the breaker. The mid range seems to be just right, so higher speeds for smaller bowls, but plenty of torque for coring.

robo hippy
 
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Both of my Powermatics (3520C and 2014) will run as low as 15 rpm with the belt on the highest torque/lowest speed pulley..
 
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When they first came out with the A, it would go down to almost 0 before turning off. When they came out with the B, the turn off speed was 50 rpm. That seemed to be the standard for some time for a lot of lathes. Glad they came to their sensed about that. It is an ideal speed for sanding, especially if you have warped bowls. You can actually keep your angle drill on the wood as it spins.

robo hippy
 
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Odie, one thing I forgot, the speed control knob turns in the opposite direction of those made on this side of the equator... Those Aussies...

robo hippy
 
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