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Reviving the C&C idea

I'll add my vote to that. I think it's been at least the third or fourth member suggestion of a C&C forum that I know of (I suspect more than that if someone ran a search) Like David, I don't have much other outlet than local farmer's markets and the local Artisan center (I did get juried in though) - no clubs within reasonable (to me) drive in my area. Closest one I think is over an hour and a half one way, and even that doesn't seem very active.
 
I think it is a great idea. I just hope the critiques are constructive and the folks remember we are new, beginners, or trying to stretch our skills. I don’t think folks are intentionally mean, but they need to remember the constructive aspect. Why could the form be better, what type of foot on a bowl would you suggest vs. What I did, etc. are examples.

I know I would appreciate it and have gotten great help from a different forum which I have greatly appreciated.
 
As Emiliano said, we have been thinking about it. There are a lot of concerns to be addressed. What I see on many woodturning forums is when somebody posts a picture and asks for a critique it usually falls into either of two categories: attaboys or bashing. Neither is very useful to someone wanting to know how to improve their work. Critiquing another person's work isn't easy and the truth is that most woodturners don't know how to provide a useful critique. We might want to establish a vetting process for members willing to critique other members' turnings. Another concern is that looking at a photo is a far cry from being able to hold a turning and examine it. Looking at a picture means that the quality of the photo will have a major impact
 
Bill Boehme said:
As Emiliano said, we have been thinking about it. There are a lot of concerns to be addressed. What I see on many woodturning forums is when somebody posts a picture and asks for a critique it usually falls into either of two categories: attaboys or bashing. Neither is very useful to someone wanting to know how to improve their work. Critiquing another person's work isn't easy and the truth is that most woodturners don't know how to provide a useful critique. We might want to establish a vetting process for members willing to critique other members' turnings. Another concern is that looking at a photo is a far cry from being able to hold a turning and examine it. Looking at a picture means that the quality of the photo will have a major impact
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In theory a C & C forum is a great idea. I for one, would appreciate objective opinions. BUT looking at a picture(s) IMHO does not provide the opportunity for fact based objectivity. Are you critiquing the object or photograph?
 
Bill Boehme said:
As Emiliano said, we have been thinking about it. There are a lot of concerns to be addressed. What I see on many woodturning forums is when somebody posts a picture and asks for a critique it usually falls into either of two categories: attaboys or bashing. Neither is very useful to someone wanting to know how to improve their work. Critiquing another person's work isn't easy and the truth is that most woodturners don't know how to provide a useful critique. We might want to establish a vetting process for members willing to critique other members' turnings. Another concern is that looking at a photo is a far cry from being able to hold a turning and examine it. Looking at a picture means that the quality of the photo will have a major impact
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Thanks Bill. Definitely understand those concerns. I'm happy to help get this going in any way I can.
I'm a moderator of a very large forum for hobby machinists and one thing that helps folks get useful feedback on their work is clarity on the challenge they are having.
So what might help is for the person looking for feedback here to be specific about what they feel needs help. Form, technique finish...definitely not an expert here but might be worth incorporating something like that.
 
Maybe a C&C forum would work.....maybe it won't.

We must understand that a critique is an opinion by one person. When you introduce multiple critiques, there will be differing opinions, because all opinions are the result of differing experiences.

-----odie-----
 
robo hippy said:
I said to my dad once, 'opinions are like rear ends, every one has one'. Dad, not losing a second said, "yes, and some of them stink". I seldom critique any one else's work, even if my opinion didn't stink....

robo hippy
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And my Dad often remarked "about the guy that kissed the cow" . . . "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder"!
 
I agree that there will be plenty of opinions and that providing meaningful critique via a photo is a challenge. If we chose not to proceed that is of course fine.
 
Bill Boehme said:
Critiquing another person's work isn't easy and the truth is that most woodturners don't know how to provide a useful critique. We might want to establish a vetting process for members willing to critique other members' turnings. Another concern is that looking at a photo is a far cry from being able to hold a turning and examine it. Looking at a picture means that the quality of the photo will have a major impact
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Agree many would not know how to provide a useful critique. Perhaps some education/guidelines and possibly a “test”, ie a process to “qualify” as a “critic”. If one initially fails the test, educational materials/guidelines are available for that person to learn and pass the test. Not an easy endeavor.

I would like education/knowledge for proper critiquing. The limited online vids/zoom mtgs I have watched have been very helpful, especially the differing opinions on a piece by the critics.

As for photos, there really isnt any other choice for the forum. Unless ones asks for photo critic, the focus is on the item. Certainly there will be lots of “I cant tell/see this due to the lighting/angle etc”, that just comes with the territory.
 
Doug Freeman said:
Agree many would not know how to provide a useful critique. Perhaps some education/guidelines and possibly a “test”, ie a process to “qualify” as a “critic”. If one initially fails the test, educational materials/guidelines are available for that person to learn and pass the test. Not an easy endeavor.

I would like education/knowledge for proper critiquing. The limited online vids/zoom mtgs I have watched have been very helpful, especially the differing opinions on a piece by the critics.

As for photos, there really isnt any other choice for the forum. Unless ones asks for photo critic, the focus is on the item. Certainly there will be lots of “I cant tell/see this due to the lighting/angle etc”, that just comes with the territory.
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There is a very informative and helpful article - The Art of Critique by Jim Christiansen in the American Woodturner journal (Spring 2004 edition pg. 52). Those who are AAW members can view past journals online. I have it saved on my computer 'desktop' and have reviewed it several times over the years.
 
Thank you very much for that reference @Tom Gall, that is an excellent read. I think the checklist would work well for both the requestor as a 'template' for what feedback to ask for and for those offering critique.
Respecting of course that we're looking at photos, I think maybe a some of photo criteria such as white background, a form view (I don't know the right words for this) maybe an overhead view and an oblique shot?
 
odie said:
Maybe a C&C forum would work.....maybe it won't.

We must understand that a critique is an opinion by one person. When you introduce multiple critiques, there will be differing opinions, because all opinions are the result of differing experiences.

-----odie-----
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When I have attended live critiques at the SWAT symposium there are usually three or four professionals conducting the critique. Something that they always emphasize is what they say is just their opinion and there aren't any "absolutes" that say things have to be a certain way. However, their opinions are the result of many years of experience, and given that they don't want to be "starving artists", they know what sells and what doesn't. A critique should be positive and friendly
 
Bill Boehme said:
When I have attended live critiques at the SWAT symposium there are usually three or four professionals conducting the critique. Something that they always emphasize is what they say is just their opinion and there aren't any "absolutes" that say things have to be a certain way. However, their opinions are the result of many years of experience, and given that they don't want to be "starving artists", they know what sells and what doesn't. A critique should be positive and friendly
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How about handing that task for critiques to the TOTW team.. so folks can post their creations, but replies limited to TOTW team members? Just a thought..
 
Woodturning is a work in progress for everyone, depending on how much time you can devote to the craft will determine how long it will take to bring your skill sets and artistic talent to the work piece. Each year you will look at older pieces you have turned in the past and will recognize for yourself how your skills and artistic designs have improved. Most turners that rise to the top tier level of the craft have dedicated years of hard work, continuing education and self-discipline to get where they are today.
 
That's true to a point, Mike, but I'd bet that those "Most Turners" you mention also all had clubs and/or mentors with some feedback and guidance on optimizing their forms. (Can't really get better at something you don't know or understand what is wrong with it) I suspect a C&C from experienced turners (that may also have some experience or practice at critiquing) would be a huge help to those of us without nearby accessible clubs or mentors.

I DO notice improvements in my turning results this year over last year's items, HOWEVER, I still think I need more guidance on form & function - Call it "having vision" perhaps - My vision is limited by what I know (after just about 2 years of practice) and *I* for one think my form , or lack of form thereof , still needs a lot of work, Put it this way - My bowls and other turned objects, while I may be able to get a great finish and nice final cuts with minimal sanding, once they are completed, they still don't LOOK right to me, and I can't quite put my finger on WHY they don't look right. That's where C&C comes in.

For me, to get "local" expertise, I could visit Bill Blasic for example, but that's a 4 - plus hour drive one way.. or I could visit LAW downstate, but that's another 5 plus hours one way.... this past spring I went over the member directory and I count a total of 3 total AAW members within any sort of relatively reasonable travel time of me (and far as I can tell none of them are exactly active locally) - I personally know one other turner - and he isn't in AAW (we often go to the same farmer's market) and looking at his work, I see little difference in his and mine (Still something don't look right, in other words..) so couldn't exactly ask him, could I?

Upshot is, It is hard to fix what's wrong when you can't identify WHAT it is that is wrong.... so a C&C forum would be a highly welcome addition for some of us.

I do understand (entirely) the potential for negative or undesirable consequences of such a forum open to critique by the general membership, however, so Bill's point is well taken.. OTOH if there were some way possible a C&C forum could be made to work (privilege tweaks perhaps so anyone can post an initial post with image but only approved members can respond, or something like that..) , then I'd definitely be making use of it with every piece I think I've got "close, but it ain't looking right to me"
 
@David Wrate

David, I think it is helpful to just post your turnings to the gallery. I find that folks around here have no problem speaking up if something is glaringly wrong. Usually, in a polite way. You might not get the myriad suggestions you would in a C&C thread, but over time you’ll pick up on the things you should and shouldn’t be doing. Try not to make the same mistakes twice, take advice from the many masters here, and keep one-upping yourself. The gallery is great for all that.
 
Michael Anderson said:
@David Wrate

David, I think it is helpful to just post your turnings to the gallery. I find that folks around here have no problem speaking up if something is glaringly wrong. Usually, in a polite way. You might not get the myriad suggestions you would in a C&C thread, but over time you’ll pick up on the things you should and shouldn’t be doing. Try not to make the same mistakes twice, take advice from the many masters here, and keep one-upping yourself. The gallery is great for all that.
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Oddly I had not thought of that... not sure why to be honest.
 
Perhaps the gallery is the place. However I think of a gallery as a showplace and expect a lot of people go with the mindset of "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all". I had to go a couple pages back to see a piece that received criticism. Even then I'd wonder did that criticism come about because the poster had already posted lots of other nice turnings, so regulars felt more free in suggesting why this one didn't work. Having some 'anti-gallery' where everyone posts their screwups or things that just didn't seem to come out right seems useful. Probably should be some guidelines to say comments must include a meaningful* suggestion, but items getting negative feedback should be the norm. With recognition that disliking the item is not the same as the person who made it.

*- Personally I'd be cracking up the first time someone tells me "That shape is awful, have you considered taking up knitting?", but I suppose that humour doesn't work as well in a written forum.
 
I like the idea of an anti-gallery! Haha. Adding that criticism should include reasoning. For example, “that foot is hideous” is a lot less effective than “that foot doesn’t really suit the curve/angle of the bottom of the bowl”. Quick and dirty.
 
98% of our membership doesn’t comment/ react on pieces; this is the same over at the Segmented site. This creates the select group of people being discussed. I generally “like” most every piece out of respect to the maker (100% of the time) for showing the courage to post and usually because I do like the piece! If I take a moment to comment, it’s because the piece itself attracts a comment, not typically the maker. If I add a critique, while opinionated, it’s always intended to give assistance to the maker for his next piece. If the maker engages, all bets are off for the rest of our lifetimes, haha!!
 
Maybe the easiest way to get C&C is to post in the gallery and ask a question about your piece.
This requires no special forum or anything, it actively indicates you'd like comments (answers), and it suggests what sorts of answers you'd like (form critique, design, technique guidance, photo help, etc), and prompts everyone as to what to focus. It also levels the field between new and experienced turners (as the questions will naturally have different focus).
 
Russ Braun said:
98% of our membership doesn’t comment/ react on pieces
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I believe this is true. Most people won't comment about any aspect of someone else's work that could be improved. When they do comment, it is positive.

Now, if someone specifically asks for a critique, that would be different.
 
I imagine asking for critique in the gallery would work, although it seems like a useful enough idea to segregate out. I suspect I'd spend a lot more time browsing the reject gallery as I think I can learn a more from peoples mistakes. Still gallery seems to have the wrong connotation to me. I go to galleries to look at/admire things, I come to a forum to discuss. If I'm honest I probably turn to google images for inspiration before remembering this site has a gallery. Just now noticed there seems to be more traffic in the gallery than the forum itself which doesn't match my experience with past hobbies.
 
Mike Szabo said:
I imagine asking for critique in the gallery would work, although it seems like a useful enough idea to segregate out. I suspect I'd spend a lot more time browsing the reject gallery as I think I can learn a more from peoples mistakes. Still gallery seems to have the wrong connotation to me. I go to galleries to look at/admire things, I come to a forum to discuss. If I'm honest I probably turn to google images for inspiration before remembering this site has a gallery. Just now noticed there seems to be more traffic in the gallery than the forum itself which doesn't match my experience with past hobbies.
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Mike,
If you see something in the gallery you like, ask questions about the piece; either in the comments or by private message. One thing about Woodturning, most people are willing to share; squeaky wheel gets the grease!!!
 
As a follow up, what you get out of this site is proportionate to what you put into the site. I suggest engagement as your experience will improve geometrically!!
 
Having been to a number of woodturning workshops, I'm used to receiving useful critique while im in the process of designing or making something. However, when something is finished, the reaction is always either positive or silent. I headed over to the gallery just to see how I would react to the postings. Here's my personal issue. There are many pieces that are "wow" to me. I would probably say so, but that's not much of a critique. There are also many pieces that I'm sure took many hours to complete and are technically very well done that just don't appeal to me. How do you critique something that may be well done technically, but that you think is unappealing? If you ignore it, and others feel the same way, then the poster gets no feedback. If you want to critique, how do you critique taste? I'm thinking, as someone else posted, that the poster looking for critique should be specific about what aspect of their piece they want critiqued.

David
 
One way to critique taste (while not coming off as a jerk) I’d to ask why the maker decided to go a certain route. For example, why do you choose to leave the crack in the piece, or why do you go with that type of finish, or why did you choose to curve the rim back out after it moved in. Taste can be very personal, of course, but if someone has a specific reason for doing something, then it’s interesting, at the very least. Might still not be beautiful, but that is subjective. I think Raffan says something in his Art of Turned Bowls book along the lines of “a beautiful bowl can be difficult to define, but there is still a reason certain designs have persisted for centuries” [beyond pure functionality].
 
All very good and thoughtful comments. Someone mentioned that there would not be much downside to doing criticism/comment on the forum, and I can think of some risk. At the present time, we have a very congenial group and people are pretty good at avoiding misinterpretation, over-reaction, and arguments. A C&C facility would readily lend itself to hurt feelings and people leaving. Potentially screwing up a good thing.

We all recognize this--it's the reason people say positive things or nothing in the gallery or when someone posts a picture. Providing useful feedback in both an empathic and expert way is really hard to do.

At present, anyone can create a post, include photographs, and ask for comments. A separate subforum for this purpose would have a couple of advantages. Those many members who don't want to provide comments, because they don't feel sufficiently expert or they fear hurting feelings, could simply not check on that forum. The other advantage would be that a few forum participants could volunteer or be drafted to be the providers of the feedback. I can think of a few folks here who I would trust to find the balance between kind and useful, and be willing to metaphorically drop my drawers in front of them. Some others I wouldn't. Unfortunately, the selection process would risk hurt feelings in those valuable forum members who are not chosen.

We already have something similar in the Turning of the Week selection committee. Maybe they could be the commenter group, as well.
 
With most forums this would be a horrendous idea but the tenor of this group is so positive with no politics or snipping arguments that I think it could be very beneficial. If I am wrong, it can always be taken down with it considered a lesson learned. Personally, for us who are newbies or less talented, who would never consider putting our work in the gallery, It would be nice to have someplace to post our humble pieces to get some positive feedback
 
Why not start a C&C forum, and allow anyone who cares to respond, to do so.

Nobody here has a crystal ball, so let's just see how it plays out.

Some of the parameters can, and should be outlined under the title of the forum.....(and, they can be amended, if need be.)

In the end, the C&C forum can always be deleted, if it doesn't work out.

-----odie-----
 
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I have never understood why you should post an image of your work if you do not want the opinion of other people. Things they like and why, as well as things they don´t like, preferably with a suggestion to change something.
 
odie said:
Why not start a C&C forum, and allow anyone who cares to respond, to do so.

Nobody here has a crystal ball, so let's just see how it plays out.

Some of the parameters can, and should be outlined under the title of the forum.....(and, they can be amended, if need be.)

In the end, the C&C forum can always be deleted, if it doesn't work out.

-----odie-----
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I belong to another forum that has a C&C section it is used but no heavily so. The comments are open to anyone and the opening statement is all that comments are just opinions, plus the usual warning about civility etc. This forum has been going for many years and used to attract large numbers of woodies who posted both work and comments. Then at some point a 'like' button was introduced and the comments dropped off dramatically to the point now 75-80% of the comments are simply a 'like'. As much as its easy and quick, it does produce a degree of frustation if your looking for a comment. What I have found with comments it often opens up a dialogue thats a benefit for all. Some sites have the usual turning of the week/month etc and in the choosing comes some sort of a critique a 'why I like' maybe this aspect can/could be expanded further
I see a C&C forum as useful but as equally challenging to get right, not getting it right will kill it and to me the most successful is a forum with recognised artists chosen to comment and who could possibly serve for a limited amount of time. This then would then provide a rotation of commentators that would keep it fresh and draw in a wider much wider experience base. Who and how I will leave it to much wiser folk than me.
 
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I am not a quiet one, well ok guilty of opening mouth and inserting foot, but would not be able to say critique in a constructive manner in print as easily as I can spoken. Also sometime we can see a problem but just cannot express a correction for it.

Yes I also notice many,many watchers here as in all forums. However that I’d nothing compared to those not even looking or club members not participating in club activities and leadership.
 
hughie said:
I belong to another forum that has a C&C section it is used but no heavily so. The comments are open to anyone and the opening statement is all that comments are just opinions, plus the usual warning about civility etc. This forum has been going for many years and used to attract large numbers of woodies who posted both work and comments. Then at some point a 'like' button was introduced and the comments dropped off dramatically to the point now 75-80% of the comments are simply a 'like'. As much as its easy and quick, it does produce a degree of frustation if your looking for a comment. What I have found with comments it often opens up a dialogue thats a benefit for all. Some sites have the usual turning of the week/month etc and in the choosing comes some sort of a critique a 'why I like' maybe this aspect can/could be expanded further
I see a C&C forum as useful but as equally challenging to get right, not getting it right will kill it and to me the most successful is a forum with recognised artists chosen to comment and who could possibly serve for a limited amount of time. This then would then provide a rotation of commentators that would keep it fresh and draw in a wider much wider experience base. Who and how I will leave it to much wiser folk than me.
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Look at the AAW Gallery -- the like button has essentially eliminated comments -- almost every (every?) piece gets at least several Likes. Almost none get any real comment. Earlier I looked at the last 12 pieces -- all had likes, only one had a real comment (i.e., a written comment).
 
R Henrickson said:
Look at the AAW Gallery -- the like button has essentially eliminated comments -- almost every (every?) piece gets at least several Likes. Almost none get any real comment. Earlier I looked at the last 12 pieces -- all had likes, only one had a real comment (i.e., a written comment).
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My guess is.....If there wasn't a like button, then there would be nothing at all....

-----odie-----
 
I think the site lumberjocks.com has it right. There is no specific place to critique someone's work, people just post a project and others comment ( mostly supportive ) and it has a feel good vibe. The difference is you can post 6 pictures originally and if you want to post more to explain what you've done you can do that also. Almost everyone describes the wood used and any important things done to accomplish the piece. Best woodworking site I've found so far.
 
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