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Sharpening Setup Advice

Joined
Dec 26, 2021
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I'm about to pull the trigger and get a sharpening system. Bench grinder, sharpening system, etc....

I'm trying to decide what grit CBN wheels to get.

I was using this article as a reference that I found via Woodturner's Wonders blog.
(The bit about wheel grit suggestions is just before the conclusion at end of article).

It suggests if you are only going to have two wheels to get a 180 grit and a 600 grit.

I'm still green/new....wanted to get other opinions in case this advice is better for a more advanced setup.

If the steel matters for the choice, I plan on getting Thompson tools.
 
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I don't know how CBN compares to diamond, but the 2 diamond wheels I have for my Tormek are 350 and 600. The 350 shapes albeit slowly, good for my arty-right-us hands, the 600 is what I use to put on fresh edges. I have a finer wheel but don't use it anymore.
 

Dave Landers

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Lots of choices. Lots of opinions. But many say that 180 is a good generic wheel for most purposes.
If you think you are going to be reshaping tools (like trying different grinds, etc) you might want to consider just a single CBN and leave a stone on the other side for shaping. Or else make the second wheel something like 80.
If you have settled on grinds and won't be doing a lot of reshaping, you might consider a finer grit wheel.
 
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When I stubbed my toe, stumbled and fell into the woodturning rabbit hole last year, I opted for a 180 and 350 grit CBN wheels. I'm well satisfied with the 180 grit. While slower than 80 grit when experimenting with a different grind, it is certainly not tortoise slow. In hindsight, I believe the 600 grit would work better for my needs than the 350 grit.
 
Joined
Jan 22, 2018
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I got a 220x for my first wheel just because everybody said to get a 180x. ;)

Well that wasn't my only reason, figured a 220x would grind just a little slower and I'd waste less metal as I first learned to sharpen. Then I got a 600x. Gouges and skews are sharpened on the 600x and scrapers on the 220x.
 
Joined
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There is some discussion on this. the two sides are coarse grind last longer and the fine grind will almost instantly be gone with contact to wood. Then the fine grind advocates say just go back to grinder after 30 to 120 seconds of use. I personally think the jury is still out with more going to finer wheels very gradually.
 
Joined
Aug 14, 2007
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I could almost do an entire different article about the questions and ideas presented here.... I started with 80 and 180 grit CBN wheels. This was in the days before the electroplated CBN wheels were available for woodturners. I picked up some D Way wheels when they first came out, and again, the 80 and 180 wheels. Being some one who is obsessed with experimenting, I now have 80, 180, 320, 600, and 1000 grit wheels. I guess I could get a 60 grit wheel, but if I need that much shaping done, I have a 36 grit belt sander for that.

I don't notice any difference in the scraper burrs between 80 and 180, so, use the 180 because it doesn't grind away the metal as fast. I have tried all the other grits, and don't notice any improvement in the burrs I use for all of my roughing cuts on bowls that I do with a scraper. Perhaps, as the wheels get finer, the burr gets weaker. I once thought that the finer wheels might almost compare to a light burnishing, but that does not appear to be true.

As for the NRS, I think I prefer the 180 grit, kind of the Goldilocks thing, not too coarse, not to fine, just right, but I am still experimenting. For the burr I prefer for shear scraping, best one is the burnished burr. I have my NRSs ground to 25/60 and most of the time I will burnish the grinder burr down, then burnish a cutting burr back up. I like a more blunt angle under the burr as it seems to support the burr better for a longer cutting life. I tried the 40/40 and 45/45 versions similar to skew chisels and didn't like them as much, in part because I couldn't get a good burnished burr on the more acute angles. The burnished burr does last a lot longer than the grinder burrs, and stays sharp longer. I have honed burrs on the NRS moving the card sideways, and it does make for a nice burr, but it just isn't as good as the burnished burr. The grinder burr is gone in seconds. Well, maybe not gone as you can still feel it with your finger, but as Tom said, "if you have to push at all with the NRS, then it is dull". The NRS is excellent for very minor touch ups on pieces, but not for any stock removal.

For shear scraping, I go back and forth, and as much as anything else, it depends as much on the piece of wood maybe more than the actual edge. I go back and forth, some times the burnished edge, some times 180 grit or 600 grit. As I said, some times it is more the piece of wood that determines what will leave the cleanest surface.

For gouges, 90% of the time I will sharpen on the 180 or maybe 320, in part depending more on which grinder is closest. When I got my first 600 grit wheel, I noticed a huge difference when making finish cuts on some punky maple. Far less tear out. So, now, when a piece is being 'difficult' that is my preferred edge for finish cuts. I have tried the 1000 grit, and more experimenting is still needed, but didn't notice that it cut much different than the 600 grit edge. I have tried hand honing with the different grit stones/cards, and that never seems to work as well for me as going to the wheel does. I don't hone the inside of my flutes. Maybe I need to make some MDF wheels for that type of honing.... Oh no, my sharpening station will get a lot bigger......

As for the skew, a tool I don't use that much, but am playing with more, I generally use the 600 grit wheel, and don't go to the 1000 grit wheel. One major discovery for me in trying to figure out this tool, is that even with a 1000 grit wheel, that leaves a burr, even with the lightest touch to the grinding wheel. It would cut fine in one direction, but not in the other, until I went to the stropping wheel on my Tormek. I recently discovered that the different honing and polishing pastes range in grits from about 800 or so for the black stuff from Norton, to 16,000 for some of the other paste formulas, and I am not sure which colored one that is. One friend is a spoon carver, and he had 4 different honing pastes. The scary sharpness that you want for your bench planes and chisels generally ends up finally in that 16,000 grit range.

As for diamond, it is the hardest substance on earth, I believe. The problem with diamond is that heat will cause it to break down. This is why diamond wheels won't work on even the standard 1760 rpm slow speed grinders. They should last almost forever on the Tormek since it turns so slow, and I think this applies even without the water bath. The Tradesman grinder out of Canada does make diamond wheels and their grinder is variable speed. I am pretty sure that it was developed for sharpening the CNC router bits, which means it is very precise, and I think it even costs more than a Baldor grinder.

As for tool steels, all I use any more is M42 HSS, and the V10. I don't notice any difference in edge durability or sharpness between the two of them. I do have a few M2 tools around the shop, but the edge holding difference is huge.

robo hippy
 
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Jan 22, 2018
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Does the coarser grind give better, longer lasting burrs on the scraper? I remove my burrs from the wheels and use a diamond hone for raised burrs on my scrapers. Maybe I should try the coarse burr?
Over many years of getting involved in sharpening discussions on hand tools, (and threads that start feuds, and go on and on and on) I try to stay away from any qualifiers such as better, best, etc... There are just too many variables and I've not seen any studies that have tried to isolate variables to give adequate conclusions.

What works best for some, will not work for others. Sometimes getting the best edge (however defined) is simply not practical for workflow and many other reasons.

In hand tool forums some have become obsessed with getting the best edge possible on their tools, they spend hours sharpening to produce a perfect gossamer shaving, but never actually complete a project. Not my goal in woodworking/turning.

Sharpening for me is a means to an end. What I do and how I do it is acceptable to me and fits within my workflow and speed of completing projects. Could I do a better job of sharpening, and get a near perfect surface without the need for much sanding? Of course, but I could spend hours doing so instead of spending minutes on final cuts. That doesn't mean I enjoy sanding, but there is a tradeoff..... I always strive to improve, but there is the law of diminishing returns...

So, after all that, back to John's question about burrs off a courser stone. I really don't have an answer. The real reason I use the courser wheel for scraper is I have one grinder, two wheels, one platform, and one varigrind. Since I chose to use the 600x for gouges with the varigrind, that left one option for the platform and I don't like switching out the platform and varigrind arm.

Am I getting the best edge possible with my setup, absolutely not. However, I am getting acceptable (to me) edges. That's really all any of us can strive for.

The only thing that matters is that you are happy with what you are doing.

And thus ends the pseudo - philosophy rant for the day!:cool:
 
Joined
Feb 8, 2022
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Reed, could you entirely do an almost-article?

Based on what I have been reading here and hereabouts, I went with 180 and 600, and now I think maybe I needed a 350 instead of the 600, but then again, for softer woods, that 600 might be irreplaceable. 350 is like those mini-SUVs you see: too small to carry anything, much less go off-road, and big enough to suck more gas to carry maybe one extra bag of mulch or groceries. Or, it fits a niche of being the smallest vehicle that is practical if you have child's car seats, which truly stinks in a compact car. Not only do I "need" a 350 wheel now that I bought something else, what I really "need" is a shop that is maybe four times what I have (why even stop there?), and three or four grinders set up with grits ranging from 32 to 600+, amongst the other $132,000 of stuff. And enough monetizable work to make it all pay for itself.

Back to reality, should I feel remorse for having bought the 600 instead of the 350? My thought was that for rough shaping, until that day I break down and buy a second grinder and magically create space for it that I don't have, I can use an angle grinder to get a rough shape and finish off with the 180. If I want a tool sharp-sharp, 600 is better than 350 (or is it really just overkill?). I know the implications of skipping grits, and 180 to 600 is a big jump. Maybe that is not so important with HSS as with sanding wood. Aside from 350 being possibly "always" good enough and certainly faster to the finish as jumping from 180 to 600, when would I ever need/want a 350 wheel as opposed to 600?
 
Joined
Aug 14, 2007
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I can't remember which grinder my 320 wheel is on..... I do prefer the 600 for a finish cut edge. For sure, when sanding bowls, that would be a huge leap, but with the grinding wheels, not that much.

robo hippy
 
Joined
Jan 8, 2021
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One thing that has stuck with me over the past 10 -15 years I've been following sharpening threads mainly around hand tools is that all of our definitions of what sharp is and what is sharp, changes over time. Meaning what I considered sharp 10 years ago I'd not consider so today. What I consider sharp today, is likely not to be so in 10 years. Part of it is technique, part is equipment. Use the wheels you have, and experiment with technique, angles, and repeatability. Look at your results- let that determine if you are sharp enough. Also consider the wood you primarily use, some woods necessitate sharper tools, while other woods are more forgiving.

I'll second the point above about folks obsessing about sharp, to the point they don't produce any work. Don't overthink it.
 
Joined
Feb 26, 2019
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I sharpen with a tormek copy. I've done some unscientific comparison (as any of these things are) of gouges with a burr vs being honed very sharp on the strop wheel. The honed tools certainly cut better initially, but not for long - like 30-60 seconds of cutting. Less if roughing with bark/inclusions. At best edge life was about equal, not so sure a burr edge doesn't last longer. I have also played around with grit of the wheel (I have different grit cleaning stones for the wet wheel), and its similar results described for honed edges. Much like @Tim Connell, sharpening is the means to the end. Those very sharp edge help with detail work with a spindle gouge, but otherwise it's not worth the hassle for 99% of the cutting.

Skews get hand honed and stropped, so the wheel grit is irrelevant. Scrapers, regular or NRS, may get used with a grinder burr (80gr Al Oxide), but all get diamond honed and a burr turned with a carbide burnisher when the grinder burr goes. This produces a sharper and longer lasting burr. At the end of the day, IMO it ain't that big a deal for me. I have to say I'm not sure what the grit comparison of the wet wheel is compared to alox or cbn, I will guess ~200. You definitely want some type of coarse wheel for shaping tools.

Regarding hand tools (chisels and hand planes) "obsessing" over getting surgically sharp edges pays off for me. The finer the edge is honed, the longer it lasts. Very important for paring chisels and smoothing planes. It also doesn't take long (a couple of minutes per edge). Microfracturing of the edge is how it starts. The more coarse the final grit, the larger the microfractures already in the edge. Yes you can strop them, but they are still there - you strop the tip not the root, which is where it fractures. Did numerous tests with plane irons to prove it to myself. Planing is a bit more exercise than turning, so there was a reason for my madness.
 
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