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Sharpening system for a newbie

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I recently started turning with carbide tools and wood like to transition to traditional HSS tools. I am looking to purchase a slow speed grinder and will fit them with 80 and 180 grit CBN wheels. I can't seem to decide which jig system to use. I have narrowed it down to Wolverine and Tormek (with the bench grinder attachment). I may eventually get a tormek for other tool sharpening needs down the road. Any thoughts or suggestions?
 
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Wolverine is kind of the standard but there are a couple other good systems out there - Can't remember for sure but I think it was woodturners wonders that had a pretty nice system too (Along with a "pretty close" imitation of the Robo-Rest) OTOH If you plan to eventually get a Tormek (Oof! out of my price range!) I see no reason you couldn't get the Tormek jigs with bench grinder adapters..
 
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I recently started turning with carbide tools and wood like to transition to traditional HSS tools. I am looking to purchase a slow speed grinder and will fit them with 80 and 180 grit CBN wheels. I can't seem to decide which jig system to use. I have narrowed it down to Wolverine and Tormek (with the bench grinder attachment). I may eventually get a tormek for other tool sharpening needs down the road. Any thoughts or suggestions?
Natasha, I use the Woodcut Tru-Grind System. To me, it does and can do everything the Wolverine system can, but takes up less room and, I think, stores more easily than the Wolverine. Price is competitive AFAIK.
Best of luck, which ever way you go.
 
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As most say the Wolverine is somewhat the standard. That is the system I started with, but no longer use that system. For my gouges I use the Hannes Vector jig and for skews and scrapers I use the Sorby ProEdge. I like the Hannes as it provides a better (for me) profile and I can sharpen within 1/2” of the flute. I like the Sorby for skews and scrapers. It is fast and efficient. Also it eliminates the hollow grind effect, but not real sure how much difference that would make. I did have the Jet knockoff of the Tormek. While it will produce a very good edge it is slow. I also bought the Tormek jig for the bench grinder, but can’t say I was a fan of that, using the Tormek fixtures. Any system will have drawbacks. If it gets down to cost, the Wolverine is a good value and does work well. Otherwise I would recommend the Hannes and Sorby combination.
 
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Hannes vector grind requires the Oneway Wolverine bases.
Tormek makes an adapter to use their jigs on the Wolverine system.
it is possible to get CBN and diamond wheels for Tormek. I would suggest finding a mentor or two and learn about and use as many different systems as possible before you buy one.
Learn to sharpen and use one grind before moving to another.
editorial comment: Sharpening is the most misunderstood and the most important aspect of woodturning. Sharp tools are a must many bad habits are learned when trying to cut with dull tools and bad habits are harder to unlearn than good habits are to learn.
 

odie

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A very basic Wolverine system is all I use anymore.....without the vari-grind jig!

I find the v-arm, skew jig, and platform can produce everything I need. However, the key to performance on the lathe, is not the more current, swept back grinds, but the spiritual element that is like adding overdrive to your mental transmission! (That will never make sense to anyone who has never experienced it! :))

-o-
 
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For hands on in my shop I have available for students to use the Tormek System, the Woodcut Tru Grind System, The Wolverine Sharpening System, Pro Grind Sharpening System (Still has to be setup on the new grinder) and the Vector Grind Fixture. My own personal grinding system is the Vector Grind Fixture and I let no one use that one as it is set for my tools and in conjunction with CBN wheels I don't believe I'll ever wear out a tool as it takes so little steel off to sharpen. They are all good sharpening systems capable of different grinds and all do the job, but all are different so it ends up to be a choice as to where you are at any given time in your journey. Until you are settled with a grind you like and decide to use forever I would keep a white wheel on one side of the grinder for reshaping grinds. I use the 180 grit CBN wheel for sharpening my gouges and the 80 grit CBN wheel for sharpening scrapers and other odd tools (and yes one of the grinders always has a white wheel on it).
 
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First, Welcome! 2nd, great first post - one the more contentious subjects to discuss!

The good thing - all of the jig systems mentioned work, and you pretty much get the same results. I'm surprised no one has brought up no jig hand sharpening - don't worry, I won't mention it again. I will say that jigs are only needed for bowl and spindle gouges - "flat" tools - skews, scrapers, bedans, etc - are easily sharpened using an adjustable angle platform. There's no need for the several skew jigs out there. There was mention of flat vs hollow grind - I've used both, and IMO hollow grind is better (much easier to hone) but it isn't critical.

The one tool where there is some difference between jigs is the bowl gouge, and it applies to long wing Ellsworth etc type grinds. The Vector and Tormek approaches can provide a higher wing bevel angle. This is due to moving the pivot point of the jig to each side as the wing is ground. Some extoll the virtues of the more acute wing bevel angle of the Wolverine style system, I don't. It makes a wing bevel rubbing cut (that I use a lot) more difficult to control. The tool is "more grabby" and catch prone. The Tormek is one jig that Stuart Batty says can very closely produce the 40/40 grind as well. The shorter the wing length (which is controlled by the operator, not the jig) the closer all the jigs perform.

I use the tormek gouge jig, with a bench grinder and a clone wet grinder. I only use the clone to resharpen gouges - shaping tools is done with a 46 grit stone wheel. I've used 80 grit cbn wheels to shape tools - they are significantly slower vs the 46gr stone. I sharpen gouges with multiple bevels, basically the same method Hannes Michelsen uses with the Vector system, which makes resharpening the small primary bevel very quick on the wet grinder, with the least material removal. One advantage of the Vector jig is the tool locating method - it needs the least length of tool of any of the jigs. I grind a flat into my tools when they get short so I can use them up.

Since you plan to use a wet grinder for sharpening other tools, it makes sense to go with the tormek gouge jig - SVD-186R and TTS-100 tool setter. The BGM-100 is the stand alone bench grinder arm. You will need a platform for sharpening other tools. Tormek has a tool arm that works with a Wolverine arm, which would provide a platform. There are other methods for a platform. I also recommend one of the tormek clones - they will do the same thing at a much lower cost.
 
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The Wolverine set up is the #1 by a long shot. Not familiar with the Kodiak set up from Ken Rizza, but it seems to be making inroads. I have only used platforms for maybe 15 years. This type of sharpening is fairly simple for some one who turns a lot, but for the occasional turner, not so simple. Every thing you do when you turn, is identical to what you do when using a platform. Setting the angles is the problem. Still, it is far faster than using jigs.

robo hippy
 
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I bet these replies really cleared things up for you Natasha, Ha ha! I have a Oneway lathe and I am very loyal to them. Wolverine for me and no knock offs. I'm quite aware that Ellsworth invented that pivot sharpening, but the adjustment ideas came from Oneway. I think. Both the Vari-Grind and the Hannes jig took me from being a hack in the 80s, to teaching hundreds and hundreds how to sharpen. I bet if you ask Belcher, he might mention that he learned quite a bit from me when he lived in Central IL.
 
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I recently started turning with carbide tools and wood like to transition to traditional HSS tools. I am looking to purchase a slow speed grinder and will fit them with 80 and 180 grit CBN wheels. I can't seem to decide which jig system to use. I have narrowed it down to Wolverine and Tormek (with the bench grinder attachment). I may eventually get a tormek for other tool sharpening needs down the road. Any thoughts or suggestions?

Natasha,

I have a few thoughts.

What do you mean by "traditional" HSS tools? All of this business of CBN, slow speed grinders, jigs, special grinds and so on are not traditional. Turners got by for decades upon decades without these gimmicks. What do you hope to gain by this change from carbide? It's an easy rabbit hole to fall into thinking just a few more gizmos will make you a better turner.

I suggest paying attention to odie's postings, "the key to performance on the lathe, is not the more current, swept back grinds, but the spiritual element". I would substitute "experience" for his "spiritual element".

You didn't mention which type carbide tools you have. Hunter carbide tools should do the job much better than some brands which use flat top inserts and look more like scrapers than shear cutters. Carbide will eventually become the standard for turning tools.

As to the grinding jigs, etc, to me it makes no sense to grind every time your tool feels dull. A number of hand honings should keep the tool sharp before you finally resort to grinding which can remove an unnecessary amount of your tools.
 

hockenbery

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quite aware that Ellsworth invented that pivot sharpening,
. A bit of trivia. I took Ellsworth’s class 1995 before he had the jig. Around that time Frank Amigo got one of jerry glaser’s jigs - a huge jig that pivoted on the floor. Think 3.5-4 foot high veri-grind made from wood with a pointed metal rod for pivot point. The angle was adjustable.

Frank let us all try his jig at a club meeting

From Gerry Glaser list of accomplishments.
“1982 Develops commercially available grinding jig with holding and manipulation features. Precursor of all grinding jigs available today.”
 
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. A bit of trivia. I took Ellsworth’s class 1995 before he had the jig. Around that time Frank Amigo got one of jerry glaser’s jigs - a huge jig that pivoted on the floor. Think 3.5-4 foot high veri-gring made from wood with a pointed metal rod for pivot point. The angle was adjustable.

Frank let us all try his jig at a club meeting

From Gerry Glaser list of accomplishments.
“1982 Develops commercially available grinding jig with holding and manipulation features. Precursor of all grinding jigs available today.”
This is interesting thank you. You maybe interested in some further trivia that Jerry Glaser also worked with Woodcut Tools founder Ken Port to design the Woodcut Tru Grind jig in the late 1990's
 
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. A bit of trivia. I took Ellsworth’s class 1995 before he had the jig. Around that time Frank Amigo got one of jerry glaser’s jigs - a huge jig that pivoted on the floor. Think 3.5-4 foot high veri-grind made from wood with a pointed metal rod for pivot point. The angle was adjustable.

Frank let us all try his jig at a club meeting

From Gerry Glaser list of accomplishments.
“1982 Develops commercially available grinding jig with holding and manipulation features. Precursor of all grinding jigs available today.”
I had a sinking feeling when I typed that. I knew I was probably off with the chronological order. Didn't David first use the floor mount fixture and then come up with the rod in a block of wood?
 

hockenbery

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I had a sinking feeling when I typed that. I knew I was probably off with the chronological order. Didn't David first use the floor mount fixture and then come up with the rod in a block of wood?
I don’t know those details.
I’m pretty sure David’s metal jig predated the Wolverine.

I got David’s jig soon after it was in the craft supplies catalog. I could sharpen by hand real well about 90% of the time and then get off the other 10%. Then it would take me 5-10 minutes to fix my mistake. The jig made my gouges last a lot longer.
 
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The Ellsworth jig preceded Oneway. Not just the Wolverine system. Gave mine away. There are many home made jig set ups.

robo hippy
 

odie

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As to the grinding jigs, etc, to me it makes no sense to grind every time your tool feels dull. A number of hand honings should keep the tool sharp before you finally resort to grinding which can remove an unnecessary amount of your tools.

^^^^^This maxim should be carved in stone by the woodturning gods!

When you hone as much as I do between trips to the grinder, it creates a little secondary bevel, close to the very edge. At some point, that secondary bevel interferes with producing the best cut possible.....and that is the point where consideration should be given to the timing between grinder intervals.....:)

-o-
 
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Natasha,

I have a few thoughts.

What do you mean by "traditional" HSS tools? All of this business of CBN, slow speed grinders, jigs, special grinds and so on are not traditional. Turners got by for decades upon decades without these gimmicks. What do you hope to gain by this change from carbide? It's an easy rabbit hole to fall into thinking just a few more gizmos will make you a better turner.

I suggest paying attention to odie's postings, "the key to performance on the lathe, is not the more current, swept back grinds, but the spiritual element". I would substitute "experience" for his "spiritual element".

You didn't mention which type carbide tools you have. Hunter carbide tools should do the job much better than some brands which use flat top inserts and look more like scrapers than shear cutters. Carbide will eventually become the standard for turning tools.

As to the grinding jigs, etc, to me it makes no sense to grind every time your tool feels dull. A number of hand honings should keep the tool sharp before you finally resort to grinding which can remove an unnecessary amount of your tools.
If you would keep the grinder running while taking those last few hero cuts with a scraper, a touchup takes 5 seconds. Actually shorter than taking a few strokes with a hand stone.
 
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I bet these replies really cleared things up for you Natasha, Ha ha! I have a Oneway lathe and I am very loyal to them. Wolverine for me and no knock offs. I'm quite aware that Ellsworth invented that pivot sharpening, but the adjustment ideas came from Oneway. I think. Both the Vari-Grind and the Hannes jig took me from being a hack in the 80s, to teaching hundreds and hundreds how to sharpen. I bet if you ask Belcher, he might mention that he learned quite a bit from me when he lived in Central IL.
I think it was Mike Darlow that thought out the adjustable long pivoting sharpening stick with the metal pin on the floor.
I'm not sure how the inventors of the "Irish grind" did the sharpening in Ireland, as Elsworth ran home to sell a "new" turning grind and had to find a way to sharpen "his" grind.
 
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All this talk of sharpening jigs, etc is fine. But as Natasha says she is using carbide so she already has cutters honed to a sharper edge than any turner in the world can do with the jigs.

I suggest she concentrate on learning how to use razor sharp carbide tooling. That may take some searching and practice since this forum does not generally give much support to turning with carbide. Most of the widely advertised carbide tooling I've seen doesn't look so good IMO. The Hunter tools do look good though.
 
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All this talk of sharpening jigs, etc is fine. But as Natasha says she is using carbide so she already has cutters honed to a sharper edge than any turner in the world can do with the jigs.
Huh?
I recently started turning with carbide tools and wood like to transition to traditional HSS tools.
Perhaps re-read the O.P. ? Seems to me she is wanting to get into traditional tools , so what's carbide got to do with it? It is kind of difficult to really offer support to turning with carbide , which is pretty much scraping, (unless you're using hunter tools, for which John Lucas has some excellent videos on those) , so there is only so much the community can really do beyond the usual basic scraping techniques, I would think. I have yet to find a carbide tool that lets me roll a little 1/8 inch bead into a bowl rim that does not need to be sanded, for example...
 
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Brian, First I read her post's title, "Sharpening system for a newbie". So she already has sharp tools. Since I can't speak for her any more than you can, we don't really know what her motivation is.

As to rolling a bead I'd do it with a square insert the same way it's done with a skew. Search Youtube.

I don't want to sound like a nut case conspiracy theorist, but there is quite a vested interest in the woodturning vendor and teaching areas to use HSS tools, plated CBN wheels, jigs and Rikon grinders.

 
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Unless you're a woodturner who never plans to do any other woodworking, be sure whatever you buy serves all of your woodworking needs, not just woodturning. The second recommendation I have is, once you buy and start using a system, just keep using it until you get to the sharpening level you desire. People tend to get frustrated and feel it's the system instead of sharpening skills that causes results to be less than desirable. If you invest in a grinder and complete sharpening system, it's just repetitive sharpening that builds your skills. In addition, if you plan to sharpen standard wood chisels or plane irons, then you probably would need to supplement the grinder with some stones to finish up these tools since non-turning tools generally require finer grits to get a good solid edge. Other than these things there is nothing I could add to suggestions about systems. They all work with use and practice.
 
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Amazing things can be done with scrapers, if you know how to present them to the wood for the different cuts. Hunter tools are not scrapers, but all the rest are. The traditional Big Ugly tool is on a square shaft, which I did not like. It was top heavy, and if you had it on the side for a shear scrape, if you got past the center, just like when using a skew, you could get nasty catches. So, to me, the carbide scrapers would not be ideal for this type of cutting, and I prefer a shear scrape for my finish cut. I would consider it essential for any turner to at least be familiar with all the tools we use. It still confuses me that two pieces of wood can turn so radically differently, and what works on one piece won't work on the next, and this holds true some times even on pieces from the same tree. The thing that keeps me from buying carbide tools is that they never seem to be able to be bought back to the factory edge. Now that I am getting back into flat work and hand planes and chisels, they do make 4000 and 8000 grit diamond lapping plates. Maybe that would help to get closer to the factory edge. No clue as to how they get that really keen edge. I don't like throw away tools..... My grandma would be proud of me...

robo hippy
 
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Natasha,

I have a few thoughts.

What do you mean by "traditional" HSS tools? All of this business of CBN, slow speed grinders, jigs, special grinds and so on are not traditional. Turners got by for decades upon decades without these gimmicks. What do you hope to gain by this change from carbide? It's an easy rabbit hole to fall into thinking just a few more gizmos will make you a better turner.

I suggest paying attention to odie's postings, "the key to performance on the lathe, is not the more current, swept back grinds, but the spiritual element". I would substitute "experience" for his "spiritual element".

You didn't mention which type carbide tools you have. Hunter carbide tools should do the job much better than some brands which use flat top inserts and look more like scrapers than shear cutters. Carbide will eventually become the standard for turning tools.

As to the grinding jigs, etc, to me it makes no sense to grind every time your tool feels dull. A number of hand honings should keep the tool sharp before you finally resort to grinding which can remove an unnecessary amount of your tools.
By traditional tools, I am referring to spindle gouges, bowl gouges etc.. as compared to my carbide rougher, detailer, and finishers from Easy tools and Rockler. I started off with the these tools first to see if turning was for me. Now that I know that I want to keep going down this journey I want to invest in some chisels. But a chisel that is not sharp is useless so I need to find a way to sharpen these tools. I am not able to turn everyday so It would be nice to have something help the process be repeatable every time I need to sharpen/hone.
 
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I've tried just about all of the sharpening styles and systems out there before I settled on the Wolverine for two reasons. First...it's nearly impossible to screw up your tool. Second...you get the same consistent edge every time. Additionally...once you settle on your sharpening system, then you can purchase very good tools without fear of ruining them.
 
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I've tried just about all of the sharpening styles and systems out there before I settled on the Wolverine for two reasons. First...it's nearly impossible to screw up your tool. Second...you get the same consistent edge every time. Additionally...once you settle on your sharpening system, then you can purchase very good tools without fear of ruining them.
Hi John, have you tried the Woodcut Tru Grind? what was your experience?
 
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There are some misconceptions floating around here.

Hunter carbide tools are not scrapers, we all agree on that.

Here are my carbide tools I use that are not scrapers. These inserts are known as high positive, generally advertised as meant for machining aluminum. Razor sharp honed cutting edges and as I said previously no turner on earth could duplicate that sharpness with a CBN wheel on a crappy Rikon grinder.

First picture shows an artist's concept of a high positive insert. Razor sharp cutting edges with a mirror polish on the remainder of the insert.

35 degree insert.JPG

Here are a couple hand turning tools I use with high positive inserts. These were marketed as metal cutting tools. The inserts aren't canted down like Hunter does. They take a bit of getting used to because they're aggressive. If you aren't careful they can dig into the wood. Handled carefully they cut the hardest woods like butter. They can be used tilting down contacting the wood below center to act more like a Hunter tool. I believe nobody markets these because of their aggressiveness. The inserts come with various radius tips and shapes. The upper right tool can get into corners. The lower right is for removing a lot of material. To the left is a brand new insert to show the polished surface, the others are bit gunked up from turning wet fir.

korloy.JPG

These are all either USA made or European and fairly expensive. EBay has Chinese counterfeits tool holders and inserts for dirt cheap. I've never tried any of the third world inserts, but a turner told me they work okay in wood, not so good in metal though. For around 25 bucks you could have the upper right tool and 10 inserts.
 
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Razor sharp honed cutting edges and as I said previously no turner on earth could duplicate that sharpness with a CBN wheel on a crappy Rikon grinder.
Has not been my experience at all. Areyour other cutters are more sharp than a hunter cupped carbide? That’s my comparison. They are not as sharp as a freshly sharpened hss tool, not even close. That applies to cutting or scraping. Yes the carbide maintains its inferior edge much longer.
 
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My take, as has been mentioned already, is to invest in a system and get on with it. any of the systems mentioned will get you to an easily repeatable process that gets you back to turning quickly and with the same edge time after time. That’s all you need. Find the best deal you can on the Wolverine, woodcut, kodiak - any of those do essentially the same thing. You can add the niceties later after getting control of your tools with consistent edges.
 
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I like the Sorby for skews and scrapers. It is fast and efficient. Also it eliminates the hollow grind effect, but not real sure how much difference that would make.

There was mention of flat vs hollow grind - I've used both, and IMO hollow grind is better (much easier to hone) but it isn't critical.
The hollow grind on a skew is superior if when you hone the diamond slip stone rides on both edges whereas the flat grind you have to rise up so that only the cutting edge is honed and that produces a secondary angle. In practice the hollow grind can be applied the work piece with the back of the edge first then bring it down so both edges are rubbing and a very fine cut will begin whereas the flat grind requires that you overcome the secondary angle and that I believe gives you less control and greater chance of a catch.
Allan Lacer is an excellent teacher of skew care and use and diffidently can explain it better than I can.
 
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I don’t disagree, but I believe a flat skew does a better job overall. It is true you will need to hone more material vs a hollow grind. Still there is not much difference. It is all opinion. I was in a symposium demo today and Jim Echter said he flat grinds his skews. I haven’t experienced any difference in control.
 
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By traditional tools, I am referring to spindle gouges, bowl gouges etc.. as compared to my carbide rougher, detailer, and finishers from Easy tools and Rockler. I started off with the these tools first to see if turning was for me. Now that I know that I want to keep going down this journey I want to invest in some chisels. But a chisel that is not sharp is useless so I need to find a way to sharpen these tools. I am not able to turn everyday so It would be nice to have something help the process be repeatable every time I need to sharpen/hone.
I own a Tormek which I didn't use very much for the first 15 years I owned it. When I started turning, I went with Easy Wood carbide. They are a great starting point to get familiar with turning without any in vestment in sharpening but, as you seem to know, they have their limits. Already having the Tormek, I acquired the Tormek gouge jig and a basic Tormek flat platform rest. I also invested recently in a Tormek 600 grit diamond wheel. The Tormek system is completely repeatable, easy, and fast. Coincidentally, the Tormek gouge jig also has an accessory for mounting carbide cutters (actually only for the round carbide cutters). So, now with the diamond wheel, I am also able to get at least 1 sharpening on my round carbides.

I am positive, though, that all of the major brand sharpening systems permit the same level of ease and repeatability that Tormek does. As I said, it's just practice.

Also, I never got rid of the Easy Wood tools. I have found that, while I get a much better finish and get to the end faster with my HSS gouges and scrapers, these carbides still have a place in my turning. I have also bought a Hunter carbide and am still working on my skills with that.

Very recently I acquired a Nikon slow speed grinder with CBN wheels from Woodturners Wonders. It fills in the gaps where my Tormek doesn't easily serve my needs and also allows me to keep my Tormek setup almost all of the time for sharpening gouges.
 
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Has not been my experience at all. Areyour other cutters are more sharp than a hunter cupped carbide? That’s my comparison. They are not as sharp as a freshly sharpened hss tool, not even close. That applies to cutting or scraping. Yes the carbide maintains its inferior edge much longer.



We're all a little loose in using the term "sharp". It's not a precise term. Sometimes I'll run my thumbnail down an edge as a judgement of sharpness, that really isn't a good way to judge an edge's ability to cut.

For example, grind a neutral rake scraping tool on a precision grinding machine. Neutral rake having an included angle of the cutting edge of 90 degrees (a square corner) and assume the thumbnail test indicates its smooth. I measured my favorite kitchen knife with an included angle of less than 5 degrees. Which would be better choice for whittling on a stick of wood? This is an extreme example of how the included angle should be included in any description of the sharpness of cutting edge. The lower the included angle the better the cutting edge.

When I talk about carbide inserts as being "high positive" it refers to a large back rake angle combined with a front relief angle which means a low included angle. They're used in automated, production woodturning because they do so well cutting both with and against the grain without needing much sanding. And, of course, being carbide they hold up longer than HSS. The insert manufacturers don't give any information on the included angle and it's not easy to measure, my guess is between 25 to 35 degrees. By canting their inserts down Hunter tools effectively increases the included angle making them a little less aggressive in cutting.

The cutter geometry plays a part too. The 30 degree diamond inserts shown in my previous posting are a factor too with a relatively small length of cutting edge removing material as oppose to a round insert.

I look at Hunter tools as a first big step forward in lathe tools.

So what choice do you make, wanting to rotate an insert to a new edge every so many hours or grinding a new edge every 15 minutes?

And, I still believe a carbide insert factory honed to mirror finish on a precision grinding machine using a 6,000 grit abrasive will have a better edge than a hand held HSS on a low budget Chinese bench grinder with a 180 grit CBN wheel.
 
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