Sharpening system suggestions

[Matt Meadows]

Ok folks. I'm upgrading to CBN wheels and possibly getting a sharpening system to go with it.

I already have an Ellsworth jig and love it (for 1/2" and 5/8 bowl gouges) , but really nothing else jig-wise. I really want something for a good fingernail gouge and basic spindle gouges and skews.

My main goal is so I can teach my kids how to safely and accurately sharpen them. I'm pretty good doing it by hand on basic grinds, but jigs make it all better.

I'm trying not to spend $500 on jigs, the Kodiak is in that ballpark and looks nice... I'm looking at the Wolverine also.

What else should I be looking at?
What jig and gouge do you recommend for a nice spindle gouge with fingernail grind for detail work?


I turn one, maybe 2 Bowls per week, and about to start back on pens and other spindle stuff. I'm only a hobbyist turner , I build cabinets for a living lol. Just upgrading to CBN is going to be quite an upgrade.

 

[Paul M. Kaplowitz]

I make about 300 bowls a year and have used the Oneway Wolverine System with the Var-Grind Jig for decades. It cost less than $200 . I like to turn, not sharpen. This is quick and easy.

 

[Lyle Jamieson]

Agree with Paul, Wolverine is the most versatile.

 

[Bill Blasic]

I have most sharpening systems and they are available in my shop for folks doing hands on but my personal system is the Vector Grind System from hannestool .com. This system gives you the hat makers grind which is almost uncatchable. It allows you to sharpen your gouge as long as you have 1/2" of flute left.

 

[hockenbery]

fingernail gouge and basic spindle gouges

If your kids are younger than about 12 - I suggest you sharpen their tools.
The jigs can easily pull a small hand into the wheel if they slip off the side of the wheel.


I use the Ellsworth jig on my bowl gouge.
I also have the woulverine mounted. One note the Wolverine pocket will be too low for the Ellsworth pivot point.
A block like this in the woulverine pocket raise the pivot point to the correct height.


I prefer the hand sharpening the spindle gouge. Quicker and it lets me make the bevel slightly convex.
Here is a spindle gouge finger nail sharpening technique David Ellsworth taught me around 1995.
Hand sharpening with woulverine platform ……… Sharpening with the varigrind &woulverine
……….. ……..

 

[Doug Freeman]

For gouges, I’ve used the wolverine varigrind and tomek gouge jig (with the toolbar for bench grinder bgm-100). I find the tormek jig more versatile, but a lot more people have the wolverine. If I were just starting I would go with the Hannes’ Vector set up. Used in the middle hole its much like the Ellsworth jig, and using the side holes creates the “hatmaker” grind with steeper wing bevels which I prefer (the tormek jig creates a very similar grind).

I use a platform for skews, scrapers, ie “flat tools”. Stuart Batty has probably the nicest platform. The wolverine and kodiak platforms work, as does my cheap one.

 

[hockenbery]

My main goal is so I can teach my kids how to safely and accurately sharpen them.

If your kids are under 12. Consider a tormek or one oft the clones. These are slow moving and misuse can be fixed with a bandaide and not hand surgery which can happen on an 8” wheel.

All kids are different developmentally. 9 year olds are like average 12 year olds and some 12 year olds are like average 9 year olds.

The worst potential accident we had in our kids classes. A 16 year old did not make a relief cut with a parting tool. It bound up the kid pulled on the handle pulling it free from the tool. The tool flew arcoss the room like a thrown knife landing on the floor without damaging anything. When I asked kid if he forgot to make the relief cut, he said “no I just wanted to see what would happen if I didn’t”.

 

[Dave Hulett]

can't believe the timing of this thread. I am prepping today for a sharpening demo I'm doing tomorrow. I was going to tag team with our club President, Ron Endicott, but on Wednesday he had an emergency and can't make it. He was to bring his wolverine setup and I was to bring my Rikon grinder with my Tormek tool bar as Doug uses. I'm familiar with the Kodiak but had never heard of the Vector Grind. will add it to my discussion of grinding systems.

 

[Matt Meadows]

Wow this is a great discussion. And I appreciate the advice on the safety aspect, no disagreements there.

I actually do have an old 8" Tormek clone but it's been unused for over a decade, unpacked, and in need of new wheels so I haven't even messed with it.

I'll be looking into the vector stuff, thank you all for that suggestion.

 

[William Rogers]

I also use the Vector Jig for all my bowl, spindle, and detail gouges. However I have the Sorby ProEdge that I use for all my other tools, skews, scrapers, roughing gouges, etc. I had the OneWay, but prefer the Vector jig and as Bill B. said you can sharpen down to about 1/2” flute. I also like that Vector grind better. The Sorby ProEdge will sharpen gouges, but you need a lot of protrusion.

 

[Dan Hewitt]

Hi Matt, last year Dennis Belcher produced a Sharpening demonstration video and article for the AAW, here is the link. In this video Dennis features the Woodcut Tru Grind and Kodiak products, as those that watch this video will note the Woodcut Tru Grind is the only Sharpening Tool Holder that can hold all tools including Scrapers with no need for an adaptor etc

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLiWaM-nBiM&t=2402s&ab_channel=DennisBelcherWoodturner

 

[Rick Urban]

If your kids are younger than about 12 - I suggest you sharpen their tools.
The jigs can easily pull a small hand into the wheel if they slip off the side of the wheel.


I use the Ellsworth jig on my bowl gouge.
I also have the woulverine mounted. One note the Wolverine pocket will be too low for the Ellsworth pivot point.
A block like this in the woulverine pocket raise the pivot point to the correct height.View attachment 58212


I prefer the hand sharpening the spindle gouge. Quicker and it lets me make the bevel slightly convex.
Here is a spindle gouge finger nail sharpening technique David Ellsworth taught me around 1995.
Hand sharpening with woulverine platform ……… Sharpening with the varigrind &woulverine
View attachment 58213……….. …….. View attachment 58214

@hockenbery Al, Good point about young hands and the Vari-Grind (ONE). I still have the ONE, but it looks like the Vari-Grind (TWO) and the Kodiak systems correct this weakness.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

One-Way Wolverine with Veri-Grind here.

 

[Tim Mehling]

I make about 300 bowls a year and have used the Oneway Wolverine System with the Var-Grind Jig for decades. It cost less than $200 . I like to turn, not sharpen. This is quick and easy.

I too would agree with Paul’s assessment. I free hand my 40/40 grinds, but my fingernail grind are all done with the Wolverine System.

 

[Odie]

Strictly my opinion here....

Woodturners have a habit of wildly over-thinking just about everything related to woodturning.

As others here, I have the Wolverine sharpening system....with one noted caveat.

I purchased my Wolverine system about 30 years ago, and for many years, I ground (not sharpened) my lathe tools, using the Vari-grind jig for the swept back grinds that are so popular these days. My Vari-grind jig probably hasn't been touched in five+ years, as I've completely reverted back to the "traditional grind" on all my bowl gouges. With practice, the traditional grind can accomplish anything the swept back grinds can do, and in my opinion, the traditional grind does it better. ...and more simply. The traditional grind doesn't require anything more than the v-arm supplied with the Wolverine system.

The Wolverine V-arm, two sizes of platforms, and skew jig are all any turner will ever need.....but, as with anything else......it's takes practice, which allows for the accumulation of practical knowledge to get from A to B.

-o-

 

[hockenbery]

traditional grind can accomplish anything the swept back grinds can do, and in my opinion, the traditional grind does it better.

I appreciate that the traditional gouge works for you. And does every cut you do well.

You are disregarding the versatility of the Ellsworth grind and other swept back grinds.

The swept back grind can take a roughing cut close the wing length - traditional is limited to something less than the flute diameter.
The swept back is much better at the pull cut. The wing bevel angle on the Ellsworth grind is about 30 degrees making the pull cut close to a skew cut.
Swept back far superior at the shear scrape than the traditional grind.

The Ellsworth grind does the flute up shear cut nicely inside a bowl while the traditional gouge will catch inside a bowl. However the traditional grind gives a slightly better surface than the Ellsworth doing the flute up cut on the outside of a bowl.

 

[Odie]

You are disregarding the versatility of the Ellsworth grind and other swept back grinds.

Thanks for your opinion, Al......

I'm not disregarding these grinds.....I have extensively used all of them, and eliminated them as a necessary element in achieving the desired result. By eliminating the equipment required for their grind shape, the entire process has been simplified, and the forthcoming results have benefited from this.

As with anything else, it takes time and the subsequent acquired experience to understand how basic concepts can overcome the "over thinking" tendency of the herd.

-o-

 

[hockenbery]

I'm not disregarding these grinds.....I have eliminated them as a necessary element in achieving the desired result. By eliminating the equipment required for their grind shape, the entire process has been simplified, and the forthcoming results have benefited from this

Its fine that you have no use for many of the cuts that can be made with the Ellsworth grind.
If you don’t need them in your work it makes sense not to use a swept back grind.

However if I remember correctly you do have a short wing on your grind which technically is a small swept back.

 

[Odie]

However if I remember correctly you do have a short wing on your grind which technically is a small swept back.

I guess we could discuss the differences in definitions, and to consider my standard grind to be a swept back grind could conceivably be agreed to. The bevel of a standard grind can be lengthened or shortened, depending on the intended use of the tool. The wing will always have a slight curvature to it, and the degree and length of the bevel is the determining factor to the length of the wing. There is a great amount of latitude in the final shape of the grind, so by saying it is a "standard" grind, it allows for a great number of possibilities for the final shape.

-o-

 

[hockenbery]

One of the things Jimmy clewes taught in class he did for our club was hollowing a spherical bowl.
Around 2001. Students turn 6-7” diameter sphere and cut the top 1/4 off to hollow an opening for a bowl
Used a traditional grind on a small bowl gouge easy to change the bevel quickly.
Started with a 40 degree bevel to cut under the rim, changed the students bevel to 55 degree to do the wide part.
Then 75-80 degrees to finish the bottom

The wing will always have a slight curvature to it, and the degree and length of the bevel is the determining factor to the length of the wing.

.
You can make the wing length vary a lot. Has nothing to do with the bevel except for the holder you use to sharpen it.
Grind the wing more it gets longer.
Grind everything equal you get the traditional grind - no wing

Joe larese article in the AAW journal shows the traditional with no wing.

 

[Odie]

One of the things Jimmy clewes taught in class he did for our club was hollowing a spherical bowl.
Around 2001. Students turn 6-7” diameter sphere and cut the top 1/4 off to hollow an opening for a bowl
Used a traditional grind on a small bowl gouge easy to change the bevel quickly.
Started with a 40 degree bevel to cut under the rim, changed the students bevel to 55 degree to do the wide part.
Then 75-80 degrees to finish the bottom


.
You can make the wing length vary a lot. Has nothing to do with the bevel except for the holder you use to sharpen it.
Grind the wing more it gets longer.
Grind everything equal you get the traditional grind - no wing

Joe larese article in the AAW journal shows the traditional with no wing.
View attachment 58369

I have no interest in arguing definitions with you, Al. You are welcome to believe as you wish, and I believe there are many who follow the "herd think" and would agree with you.

Joe Larese's photo does not show the only traditional grind that is possible, in that traditional grind isn't a particular shape, but rather how it's done.

-o-

 

[hockenbery]

in that traditional grind isn't a particular shape, but rather how it's done.

Method is an unusual way to define grinds. Most folks define grinds by the cutting profile, irrespective of how it is done.

I can set the vairigrind to reproduce my fingernail grind.
I think these two methods produce the same grind. The methods are quite different.
Resulting profile nearly identical.

FINGER NAIL GRIND. ……………..…………..FINGER NAIL GRIND
………..

Traditional grind on an SRG

 

[robo hippy]

Al, The traditional grind I am used to seeing, you start with the gouge up side down to form the top side of the gouge, then roll it over and just roll the tool till the flat on the flutes is gone. The 40/40 is similar to what I have called the 'traditional' grind except that you sweep side to side as well as roll the tool when sharpening.

robo hippy

 

[hockenbery]

The traditional grind I am used to seeing, you start with the gouge up side down to form the top side of the gouge, then roll it over and just roll the tool till the flat on the flutes is gone.

. That is the way I create a sweptback grind on a new gouge or a students tool that is way out of wack.


I think the of traditional grind or English grind is straight across like many sharpen their SRG.
This article from the journal by Joe larese shows three grinds
The one he calls the traditional is ground straight across.

 

[Walter Mooney]

Ok folks. I'm upgrading to CBN wheels and possibly getting a sharpening system to go with it.

I already have an Ellsworth jig and love it (for 1/2" and 5/8 bowl gouges) , but really nothing else jig-wise. I really want something for a good fingernail gouge and basic spindle gouges and skews.

My main goal is so I can teach my kids how to safely and accurately sharpen them. I'm pretty good doing it by hand on basic grinds, but jigs make it all better.

I'm trying not to spend $500 on jigs, the Kodiak is in that ballpark and looks nice... I'm looking at the Wolverine also.

What else should I be looking at?
What jig and gouge do you recommend for a nice spindle gouge with fingernail grind for detail work?


I turn one, maybe 2 Bowls per week, and about to start back on pens and other spindle stuff. I'm only a hobbyist turner , I build cabinets for a living lol. Just upgrading to CBN is going to be quite an upgrade.

Matt, I have used the Woodcut Tru-Grind system for close to 20 years. The one thing about it over the Wolverine is that it takes up less room in the way the base is set and the holder is used.

 

[hockenbery]

Al, The traditional grind I am used to seeing,

robo hippy

In Ellsworth’s article in the journal he shows a tradition grind on probably a parabolic flute.
It is ground straight across and gets a small wing from the different thickness of the metal

 

[Dan Hewitt]

. That is the way I create a sweptback grind on a new gouge or a students tool that is way out of wack.


I think the of traditional grind or English grind is straight across like many sharpen their SRG.
This article from the journal by Joe larese shows three grinds
The one he calls the traditional is ground straight across.
View attachment 58383

Thank you for sharing this, how many also know that Jerry Glaser assisted to design the Woodcut Tru Grind sharpening system?