Shiny Doesn't Mean Sharp

[Tim Tucker]

Tim you can also use a block of wood with a hole drilled to proper depth. I have one for my travel tool box . One hole for 1.75 and one for 2.0

Granted, most can get by with that. I have a disorder that - I think the Latin name is: "heavy handed-clumsyitis"...in other words, within a few short weeks, that 2" deep hole maybe 2-1/8"...So I try to "Tim Proof" anything I can.

 

[Spike Cornelius]

Randy- Here are some pics of a jig I made that helps me get better alignment of the top of the flute to the plastic hold down plate in the Wolverine jig. It does not address all of the potential variables in sharpening on the Wolverine system, and I too have had enough frustration with the same problem you describe that I just bought a Sorby Pro Edge, and a Tormek full set up. So...I will be able to compare the pros and cons myself soon.....
But - back to this jig: in the first picture you see that I use it with the flute upside down. Flush to the surface. I slide the Wolverine jig on first, and adjust it to just snug enough that I can still slide it to the correct distance, but not loose or sloppy. This can be made out of anything I suppose..but I had some scrap of a carbon fiber phenolic material laying around, and some pieces of aluminum. Thin steel would be better. C.A. works well for gluing this jig. I also imbedded a magnet in the bottom of it and into the bench next to the grinder. it stays put. And you can stick it in your pocket if you are going to another location to turn ( along with a pre-set angle Wolverine jig).

Granted, most can get by with that. I have a disorder that - I think the Latin name is: "heavy handed-clumsyitis"...in other words, within a few short weeks, that 2" deep hole maybe 2-1/8"...So I try to "Tim Proof" anything I can.

I just nailed a chunk of tuba-fir 2” from the edge of the stand and bobs yer uncle

 

[hockenbery]

Granted, most can get by with that. I have a disorder that - I think the Latin name is: "heavy handed-clumsyitis"...in other words, within a few short weeks, that 2" deep hole maybe 2-1/8"...So I try to "Tim Proof" anything I can.

A penny in glued in the bottom of the hole should last you at least 2 months
a penny requires a + a penny height depth but keeps the bottom of the hole from getting deeper.

 

[robo hippy]

I have a Tormek that is 25 or so years old. The only thing I really use it for is the honing wheel. I have been curious about the diamond wheels that are available for it now. 1200 grit.... I did pick up a set of carving chisels recently...... Oh, not another tool!!!!!! Never could figure a way to convert a robo rest to fit the Tormek...... Their tool rest mount is considerably above center....

robo hippy

 

[Tim Tucker]

I have a Tormek that is 25 or so years old. The only thing I really use it for is the honing wheel. I have been curious about the diamond wheels that are available for it now. 1200 grit.... I did pick up a set of carving chisels recently...... Oh, not another tool!!!!!! Never could figure a way to convert a robo rest to fit the Tormek...... Their tool rest mount is considerably above center....

robo hippy

Nick Agar is the Tormek Ambassador. If you reach out to him, he will likely recommend the 600 wheel. And - ass of Sept. 1 accessories are 10% off. Not sure about the wheels...but if I understood correctly - anything other than the grinder is an "accessory"....

 

[Jon Rista]

Robo & Jon, you made the comment about simply rolling a U shaped flute gouge rather than doing wings then nose. Most of my gouges are U shaped now. I like them better. Don't know why, just do. I have some parabolic ones with swept back grinds that I mostly just use initially to do rough shaping and bark removal. After getting a good shape on my U shaped gouges I've been trying to just start on one side, roll to the other and than back. So far it's helped in getting a consistent edge (no sharpie left) and maintaining my shape. With the other flute shapes I do have to make sure I keep an eye on my nose and wings or I'll get shape creep that I then have to deal with.

Tim, I looked at the Tormek and watched some videos. Nice setup but way out of my comfort zone for spend. I figure the initial spend and all the jigs and attachments to make it work I'd be in deep and then have a couple of nice grinders and wheels and jigs that I wouldn't need. One of those master what you have vs a new tool decisions.

Have you ever looked into Kent Weakley's videos and articles? I only started this hobby in March 2020. I'd been watching wood turning videos on youtube for almost two years at that point, so I guess I had a bit of a lightweight "education" before I got into the hobby. I had ZERO skill with the tools, sharpening, etc. though. Kent Weakley has some excellent videos and articles on gouges, and I learned from him that every tool has its place. I tend to use a range of gouges on each piece. I have the swept back (irish or ellseworth) grinds, and I have your basic 40/40 grind, and I've also turned one of our basic "U" type gouges into one of Weakley's "bottom feeder" type gouges for getting around those tight inner curves and along the bottom of bowls. If I'm turning a bowl, I tend to use all of these, for different parts of the bowl. The Weakley bottom feeder is the hardest one to do, as its got three bevels of very specific natures, including one that is just a hairline bevel right on the edge that is kind of hard to get on there...but, when you grind it right, it really does what Weakley uses it for.

Anyway, if you haven't read his stuff, it is really worth a read:

Micro Bevel Bowl Gouge - Bottom Feeder - Turn A Wood Bowl

The micro bevel gouge may be a new term for you, some call this a bottom feeder. Let me explain when you can benefit from a micro bevel gouge…

turnawoodbowl.com

The guy is a gold mine of little secret gems like this micro bevel bottom feeder gouge. He has some excellent technique that pretty much eliminates catches, as well. I used to catch all the time when I first started. Even had a couple bowls explode on me. First one was my first lipped vessel, or vessel where the walls closed in over the top of the bowl a bit. I was using a swept back gouge, and when trying to cut under the bottom of that lip, I put pressure on it on the back side, and the entire bowl just shattered and exploded into about 5 or 6 pieces and a few small fragments. If I had been using the bottom feeder, or micro bevel I think as Weakley usually calls it, I probably wouldn't have had that little explosion. Using his techniques, which is mostly about how to use the bevel, how to properly float the bevel, etc. I haven't had a catch....well, maybe not at all this year so far. Not with a gouge, anyway. Kent and Jimmy Clewes seem to have a lot of the same technique when it comes to using the bevel properly, and using the right gouge for the job to get and keep the right shape.

 

[Jon Rista]

As Jon pointed out, the profile of one or both wings sometimes gets out of hand and correction is difficult. When this happens, lay the gouge flute down on the edge of a platform rest (which allows the gouge to swing up and down) and grind the wings to the desired profile and until the edge is blunted over the whole profile. This will be apparent from a bright reflection from the blunted edge. Then put the gouge in the jig and carefully grind each side as needed, checking frequently, to remove the bright edge. Then proceed to sharpen normally.

Since I've moved to CBN wheels, I haven't had to go to any extreme measures to clean up bumps. I guess I haven't had divots much, but I do get bumps. With the CBN wheel, an this is very unlike an aluminum oxide wheel, you can use short swinging strokes just around the bump, and you can literally see it getting ground down by the CBN wheel. It usually only takes a matter of seconds (tens of seconds maybe if its a bad bump) to grind it down in line with the rest of the profile of the wing. Sometimes, I think it is easier to do this with the bump in the wing near the edge of the wheel, as you can better control which part of the wing contacts the wheel. In any case, and I do think this is specific to using CBN wheels as I was never able to do this with aluminum oxide wheels, totally flattening and dulling the edge then regrinding it hasn't been necessary for me lately.

 

[robo hippy]

Well, there are a lot of names used for the process of removing the heel of the bevel on inside bowl gouges, but I believe this technique is older than dirt. Micro bevel, secondary bevel, or what ever.... I think there are even jigs for being able to make them.

So, what does this bevel relief do? Well, when cutting anything, the closer the bevel rubbing point is to the cutting edge, the easier it is to control the cut. This is probably more true on bowls than on spindle turnings. On the outside of a bowl, which is a convex surface, bevel angle makes pretty much no difference. On the inside, it can make a huge difference, and if you have a full length bevel with a sharp heel, that will leave marks/bruises that won't come out, even if you sand through to the outside of the bowl. This is one main reason for those concentric rings that are so common on the inside of a bowl. Perhaps it is easier for me to do by hand rather than set up a jig to do it, but I just eyeball it and roll the heel on the wheel back and forth so mine is more rounded rather than a single bevel or several bevels. You want to remove at least half of the bevel, and if it is rounded, this will leave less pressure on the heel with going through the transition area of the bowl from bowl wall to bowl bottom. Other than that, keeping your handle hand in control of the cut and making sure that your shaft hand is doing NOTHING other than resting lightly on the shaft will help make the transition and bottom of the bowl one smooth curve. Yes, it does take practice.

"Yes, the bevel should rub the wood, but the wood should not know it." No clue who said this, but it was supposed to be some skew master.

robo hippy

 

[Jon Rista]

Just for clarity, the "micro bevel" from Weakley's article has three bevels. There is the ground down heel, but also a very thin "micro bevel" along the edge. That was an evolution on just a double or triple beveled grind where the heel is ground down to allow it to get around tight curves. The microbevel with its tiny edge-side bevel I think allows you to float the bevel more easily, and avoid those scraping marks on all parts of the inside of a bowl.

 

[Tom Gall]

As Robo stated this technique is “older than dirt”. I’ve been grinding away the bevel for probably 20-25 years. No angles necessary! I just eyeball & roll the tool to make a rounded surface to very near the cutting edge. Try NOT to get near the edge (if you do you will round over or damage the edge and defeat the purpose). This produces a whole bunch of micro bevels. The following steps are not necessary but just my method: Then I go to my 1” belt sander and grind a little bit above the platen (allows the belt to flex) and do the same thing – this removes all the micro bevels from the grinder and produces a rounded surface. And if I’m feeling really anal - I’ll polish this surface on a leather wheel loaded with polishing compound. Then I go back to the grinder to sharpen the short cutting bevel. This rounded surface will last through many trips to the grinder – then when necessary just “rinse and repeat”.

 

[hockenbery]

Much like @Tom Gall i free hand grind the heel off. I use a grinder.
i don’t do any polishing and accept what the grinder does.
i learned grinding the heel off from Liam O’Neil in 1994. many many turners use this.

after sharpening l support the tool on a platform put the heel on the wheel and roll the tool Back and forth slowly raising the hand making a convex. Leave about an 1/8 inch of the sharpened bevel. Once shaped I sharpen the tool 4-5 times before redoing the convex. The first time it takes more turns at the heel.

a few advantages are:
1. the short bevel has little contact with the wood and very little bevel drag - makes it easier to reach further off the tool rest.
2. The angle on the heel is gone so it can’t press on the wood and make compression marks
3. the convex of the bevel can slide back and forth over the surface as you try to pick up a cut or feel for a bump you want to cut.

 

[Allen Mattsen]

I was using the method from a D-Way tools sharpening video which is adding a spacer block after grinding a bowl gouge to grind a relief bevel on the heel as a second step, but recently learned from an old timer to stand to the left of the grinder and hold the tool horizontally (perpendicular to the wheel) and roll the tool to easily create the same effect.

For a BOB gouge I use two fingers on the platform to make a secondary bevel in the face of the tool that reduces the primary bevel's width, followed by grinding the heel like above. I guess that is three bevels...now if I could just master the tool.

Watched a guy using a BOB gouge upside down while making a platter yesterday (video via Craft supplies IIRC). Mind blown.

 

[john lucas]

I do 3 bevels. I think it's easier to feel.the cut with a micro bevel so I'm not forcing the cut and it has reduced tearout. Insharpen the gouge thensame wayninalways did. Then I move it forward I. The V arm of the Oneway system and grind away most of the bevel except for a millimeter or 2. Then I pull the gouge out of the wolverine free hand grind away the heel of the tool. Since I had another Thompson gouge ground exactly the same angle I left the full length bevel just grinding off the heel. Then I turned a bowl and would swap tools every other cut to learn the difference. You can hear the difference pretty noticeably. The feel.and cut quality was pretty subtle but definitely there. Might be more. Noticeable on something like punky woods but I havent done that experiment yet.

 

[Allen Mattsen]

If anyone has info or demos on honing bowl (or spindle) gouges that'd be great. I've tested honing flute(s) but can't tell if it's really useful or not - or if I'm doing it correctly. Not sure if I should hone the bevel or not and if so the tip is challenging to do.

I can hone skews fine. I can remove a burr from a NRS and raise a new one just fine, but as far as gouges are concerned I haven't figured it out, yet.

I'm use a Lacer teardrop slipstone. I'd considered getting a conical carbide tool for the flutes but not ready to do that without more info first.

 

[Doug Freeman]

I’ve played a bit with honing gouge bevels, inside and out. The leather honing wheel on my wet grinder makes honing the outside easy. I’ve used arbor mounted felt wheels to hone the inside. Doesnt seem to make the edge last any longer, but can make a super sharp edge if needed. The most practical method for me - sharpen edge on wet stone, use a round ceramic stone inside to turn the burr out, hone the outside with the leather wheel. Very sharp for those finish cuts if needed.

I do have conical diamond hones and use the to smooth up the inside of some gouge flutes - unsure it really helps anything. I have a lot more confidence in various sharpening/honing methods, and the results, for flat work tools (plane irons, chisels) vs turning tools. The feedback loop is shorter when you are the one supplying the horsepower.

 

[Brian Gustin]

If anyone has info or demos on honing bowl (or spindle) gouges that'd be great. I've tested honing flute(s) but can't tell if it's really useful or not - or if I'm doing it correctly. Not sure if I should hone the bevel or not and if so the tip is challenging to do.

I can hone skews fine. I can remove a burr from a NRS and raise a new one just fine, but as far as gouges are concerned I haven't figured it out, yet.

I'm use a Lacer teardrop slipstone. I'd considered getting a conical carbide tool for the flutes but not ready to do that without more info first.

I have a credit card sized Trend diamond plate (300 & 600 grit) that I keep nearby and just a quick swipe following the bevel of my gouges often refreshes my edge for a little while longer.. Usually I can sharpen gouge at the grinder, then hone with the trend plate 3 or 4 times before going back to the grinder The credit card size makes it easy, as I am right handed, I snug up the gouge handle in between my left arm and body, and hold the steel of the gouge fairly close to the tip to hold an angle in "line of sight" to eyeball my bevel and then just swipe the card hone with right hand over the bevel, easy to see when the very tip (a micro bevel if you will, given the slight hollow grind of the gouge tip) is sharp again. I don't bother honing the flute, as any burr usually breaks away in the first few cuts.. the few times I want to use a wing of the gouge to do a scrape, I may go back and re-grind to get a fresh burr first...

 

[Bill Blasic]

I have had the Vector Grind Fixture since Hannes first came out with it. The two main reasons are that it gives you the closest thing to the hat makers grind which is a grind that is almost catch proof and the other is that as long as you have a half inch of flute left you can sharpen that tool. Now because I use CBN wheels and Thompson tools I don't think I will ever get to the point of only having 1/2" of flute left as it takes so little pressure to sharpen with the CBN wheels and so little steel is taken off. Now I tried putting wings on a U gouge and found out quickly that does not work (the only U that I sometimes use is a 3/8 U with a flat grind using a platform and rolling the tool). Used in the bowl transition area of side to bottom when no other tool will stop the tear out. I have a Tormek that I bought about the same time as the Vector Grind Fixture but because the Vector got setup first I never used the Tormek until Nick Agar made me set it up for honing the tools (which I sometimes do but have not noticed any major improvements to the cuts but that's just me). A couple weeks ago we had a few days of hands on here in my shop and I have two other slow speed grinders for others to use one with a 180 and 300 CBN wheels and the other with a 180 CBN and a white stone wheel. I watches as folks used them and they made 4,5,6 passes on the CBNs to sharpen their tools, I guess before we do it again I'll have a sharpening class as done right one or two passes is all that is needed for a sharp tool. The other two grinders are equipped with Wolverine Systems.

 

[hockenbery]

My "blood test" for sharpness means I would need to use the opposite of your color coding.

Bill can’t you use luminal and a uv light? When the luminal stops fluorescing it is sharp.

 

[odie]

The obvious solution, it seems to me, is to not swing the gouge wing to wing when sharpening, but to treat each wing separately, and to true up the nose if necessary. At least it works for me.

Howdy Dennis.....

This is the method I use for gouges, although I'm almost exclusively using the traditional grind, these days. With a little practice, it works very well......wings first, then blend in the nose.

-----odie-----