Show us your Bowl Gouge Grinds

[Neil S]

A question was asked in another forum about the bowl gouge grinds we are using and I thought, having prepared a response to that, I would also post my response here.

Nowadays I use three basic grinds: 65°, 55° and 42°. The flute profiles on the gouge partly determine which of those grinds I can use on each gouge. If it is not clear what I mean by the different flute profile descriptors that I use below then see the thread that I have previously posted on that without going into detail on that in this thread…

https://www.aawforum.org/community/threads/bowl-gouge-flute-descriptors.20506/

My 65° Grind

I can use this grind on most of the flute profiles that I have. With this grind I can do an inside bottom-of-bowl cut (BoB) using the high angle on the nose and also face off blanks.

The quite convex edge on the wings near the nose can also be used for doing heavy pull cuts for hogging off wood when roughing down/out green wood blanks. The extra convex area of the wing also works well for doing undercuts inside bowls and more closed forms using a reverse push or pull scraping cut.

I also use the long wings back from the nose to do final fine finishing cuts on the outside of bowls.

Here are some examples of my 65° bowl gouges.

Woodcut ¾” with
65° bevel grind on V flute


Henry Taylor ⅝” Superflute gouge with
65° bevel grind on Parabolic flute


Ellsworth Crown ⅝” Sig gouge with
65° bevel grind on Parabolic flute​

 

[Neil S]

My 65° Grind - 2nd batch

D-Way ⅝” gouge with
65° bevel grind on V flute


Woodcut ⅝” with
65° bevel grind on Parabolic flute


Henry Taylor ½” Superflute gouge with
65° bevel grind on Parabolic flute​

 

[Neil S]

My 55° bevel grind BGs

These are my general purpose workhorses for push cuts

Crown 1” with
55° bevel grind on Parabolic flute



Thompson ¾” with
55° bevel grind on V flute



Thompson ⅝” with
55° bevel grind on V flute​

 

[Neil S]

My 42°, or thereabouts, bowl gouges

I use these mostly on seasoned wood for the refining push cuts on the outside of bowls and for the inside run down through the endgrain on the inside as far as the transition. Because of their low bevel angle they don’t handle the crossgrain from there on very well.

I have used both 45° and the 40/40 grind at times but have now settled on this halfway-in-between bevel angle for those cuts.

Thompson ⅝” with
42° bevel grind on V flute



Vicmarc ⅝” with
42° bevel grind on Parabolic flute



D-Way ½” gouge with
42° bevel grind on V flute​

 

[Neil S]

42°bowl gouges - 2nd batch

Thompson ⅜” with
42° bevel grind on V flute


Customised flute on ⅜” bar with
42° bevel grind​

Looking forward to seeing some of your grinds posted here.

 

[john lucas]

I use 3 grinds and a Hunter cupped carbide. My version of the 40/49 I call a 45/45. It's actually about 42 on the nose with wings swung out to 45 to make them longer. Then I use a 42 degree nose ellsworth grind. I also use a 55 degree Ellworth grind. All 3 have very short main bevels. For anywhere I need a bottoming gouge I use the Hunter Badger or Phoenix. It has an 82 degree outside bevel so I can cut in the deepest bowls. The cutting edge is 60 degrees so it cuts very clean.

View: https://youtu.be/PHvLDJ_FQ-E?si=ImYUQsKBmLZENZY8

 

[Ron Solfest]

Thanks Neil. I’m not home (and won’t be for several months) so I don’t have any side pictures of my grind to share but do have a question for you.

From a profile most of my grinds are similar, somewhere between your Vicmarc 5/8” and D-Way 1/2” but with longer wings (about 2x yours, maybe a little bit more). I use ~60deg on a 5/8” Robust (that I’m still not real happy with), ~55deg on my other 5/8” bowl gouges, ~50deg on my 1/2”s, ~45deg on 3/8”s, and ~35deg on my detail and spindle gouges. I also have a BB that I freehand sharpen very steep (~75-80deg?).

My question is about the very rounded tip you put on your 55/65deg gouges. I like having a convex profile so it can easily be used as a shear scraper on the inside of bowls but nothing as much as the exaggerated convex shape you place near the tips, almost approaching perpendicular to the shaft. I’m sure you’ve given this thought and would like to hear some of the reasoning behind this grind vs the more shallow convex shape similar to your 3/8” Thompson 42deg.

Thanks!

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

My 1/2” Thompson with 55 degree grind. I also have a 5/8” Sorby with the same grind.

 

[Neil S]

I use 3 grinds and a Hunter cupped carbide. My version of the 40/49 I call a 45/45. It's actually about 42 on the nose with wings swung out to 45 to make them longer. Then I use a 42 degree nose ellsworth grind. I also use a 55 degree Ellworth grind. All 3 have very short main bevels. For anywhere I need a bottoming gouge I use the Hunter Badger or Phoenix. It has an 82 degree outside bevel so I can cut in the deepest bowls. The cutting edge is 60 degrees so it cuts very clean.

View: https://youtu.be/PHvLDJ_FQ-E?si=ImYUQsKBmLZENZY8

Thanks John for the BG grind photo and your video explaining how you use the Hunter.

You will see from my photos that I don't use secondary bevels on any of my bowl gouges. I did add those for awhile but found that they weren't worth the extra time taken to maintain them for the advantage they gave me. Yes, a secondary bevel will allow the gouge to work further through the inside transition, but at some point I have to swap over from the gouge that is best suited to going down the inside wall of the bowl and cutting endgrain to a gouge or scraper that is better suited to the BoB area.

I know that some find the heel on a full single bevel BG will damage fibres behind the cut, but I don't find that to be a significant enough issue to warrant maintaining a secondary bevel myself, but if it did I might go back to doing that.

 

[Neil S]

My question is about the very rounded tip you put on your 55/65deg gouges. I like having a convex profile so it can easily be used as a shear scraper on the inside of bowls but nothing as much as the exaggerated convex shape you place near the tips, almost approaching perpendicular to the shaft. I’m sure you’ve given this thought and would like to hear some of the reasoning behind this grind vs the more shallow convex shape similar to your 3/8” Thompson 42deg.

Ron

I'll give your question some thought before giving you are fuller reply.

Thanks

 

[Steve Tiedman]

Sorry if I'm gonna touch a nerve here...

For the new turners out there who don't have $1000 or more to build a bowl gouge collection consisting of every steel type, flute shape and bevel angle imaginable, allow me to speak on your behalf.

A single 1/2" bowl gouge (made from 5/8" bar stock), with a time-tested ~60 degree bevel angle at the front, that blends into wings that sweep back ~3/4" and have a slight convex shape to the wing edge, is going to serve you very well for a long, long time for just about any bowl you want to make. This has been my protocol for decades. I have 2 bowl gouges set up this way (hit a sweet deal on Crown Pro-PM bowl gouge a long time back, the only reason I own 2) and I've used them on "single scoop of ice cream" size bowls up to 16"-18" bowls.

Are there advantages to all these other steels, bevel angles and flute shapes? Anecdotally, sure. But their nuances, in some instances, may not be worth your hard-earned cash, particularly when you are starting out and may have other tools to buy. Remember, many of these grinds and the tools they are on have some famous turner's name on them, another way for them to earn a living.

The, THE, most important aspect of any gouge, any turning tool, is maintaining a keen, sharp edge. (This one below is fresh off of a 180 grit CBN wheel, sharpened with the Oneway jig system.) Learn to sharpen and learn to turn before you go chasing after every bowl gouge style out there.

 

[john lucas]

I find tge short main bevel helps me "feel" the cut and makes it easier to cut at the proper speed. I did a test one day with 2 identical gouges. Make a cut with one and then switch to the othe and try to.make the same cut. Did this many times during several projects. You can actually hear the difference in the cut which I thought was cool. I also always grind off the heel to keep from getting burnished marks when turning tge inside of bowls.

 

[Neil S]

Sorry if I'm gonna touch a nerve here...

For the new turners out there who don't have $1000 or more to build a bowl gouge collection consisting of every steel type, flute shape and bevel angle imaginable, allow me to speak on your behalf.

A single 1/2" bowl gouge (made from 5/8" bar stock), with a time-tested ~60 degree bevel angle at the front, that blends into wings that sweep back ~3/4" and have a slight convex shape to the wing edge, is going to serve you very well for a long, long time for just about any bowl you want to make.

No sensitive nerve touched here, Steve... and that is good advice there for new turners. I had only one bowl gouge in my tool rack for many years and did everything a bowl gouge could do with just the one grind on that one gouge.

For my part, I'm not aiming to give advice to anyone, just sharing what I have in my tool rack at this stage of my turning journey, which has been going now for over 50yrs. Like most new turners I struggled back then to put together the essentials, but over time my woodturning has increasingly paid for itself and over the last decade or so has left me with a surplus to buy whatever tool I might be interested in trying.

Having an engineering background I like to explore and understand the tools that are available to us and to share what I think I have leaned from that, but I have no horse in the race or reputation to defend. I'm just sharing my journey for whatever it might happen to be worth to anyone else. I'm also very interested to see what others have learned from their woodturning journey on this and other forums.

My tool rack may look a bit overloaded to some but as many bowl gouges have also moved on to make way for any new ones that come in. Quite a few turners down this way have been the beneficiaries of those (including one Crown Pro-PM 1" BG among those) and if you were down this way Steve you may have have also got one of those freebies from me, although that would have left you with the dilemma as to which gouge you would move on to downsize back to just two gouges in your tool rack...

View attachment 63753

Thank you for taking and sharing that photo, Steve.
.

 

[Neil S]

I find the short main bevel helps me "feel" the cut and makes it easier to cut at the proper speed. I did a test one day with 2 identical gouges. Make a cut with one and then switch to the other and try to make the same cut. Did this many times during several projects. You can actually hear the difference in the cut which I thought was cool. I also always grind off the heel to keep from getting burnished marks when turning the inside of bowls.

Thanks John for sharing your findings from your experiments with the primary bevel. By having two identical BGs you have been able to carefully control the parameters to see which way works best for you.

I have a professional turning colleague who says he listens to the cut. I only do that to the extent that it's not complaining. I depend more on the feedback through the tool and what I can see happening. He does a lot of teaching nowadays and getting students to listen to the cut is going to work better for them as they have no experience of how a cut should feel when its going well.

 

[Steve Tiedman]

@Neil S, ah, an engineer. That, my good sir, explains much.

As I sit here in the shop looking at a shelf with six #4 bench planes. Long story...

Enjoy your research! It'll keep you feeling young.

 

[Odie]

I have a professional turning colleague who says he listens to the cut. I only do that to the extent that it's not complaining. I depend more on the feedback through the tool and what I can see happening.

The sound a cut makes is only one component in a total equation. A turner needs to take in all the available information and make adjustments throughout the progress of the cut. Just how to combine all the elements takes some experience, but it cannot be accomplished without "total awareness". This is where the experienced turner has a distinct advantage over someone with little turning experience. However, in another thread, I brought up the "newbie advantage", which the more experienced turner loses along the path to experience. Because the experienced turner has confidence, he loses the more delicate (possibly over simplified terminology) nature of the newbie cut, in exchange for a more aggressive cut. The newbie doesn't know what he's experiencing, while the more advanced turner doesn't realize what he's lost.

Then there is the rpm advantage, which is also a critical element in the pursuit of the "perfect cut". It just isn't possible to achieve the perfect cut, if the wood is not rotating in perfect conformity with concentricity.

-o-

 

[Odie]

Another thing to consider is, while a cross-grain bowl is spinning, the resistance to the cut is more pronounced as it cuts end grain, as opposed to long grain. This resistance can be reduced with a sharper tool, but if the tool tends to go "in-n-out" in accordance with cutting end grain or long grain, then sharpening the tool will help, but you're more than likely just plain "pushin'-too-hard". Obviously, an extremely sharp tool will help, but there too, sharpness is only a single component in the total equation.

-o-

 

[Kevin Jesequel]

Sorry if I'm gonna touch a nerve here...

For the new turners out there who don't have $1000 or more to build a bowl gouge collection consisting of every steel type, flute shape and bevel angle imaginable, allow me to speak on your behalf.

A single 1/2" bowl gouge (made from 5/8" bar stock), with a time-tested ~60 degree bevel angle at the front, that blends into wings that sweep back ~3/4" and have a slight convex shape to the wing edge, is going to serve you very well for a long, long time for just about any bowl you want to make. This has been my protocol for decades. I have 2 bowl gouges set up this way (hit a sweet deal on Crown Pro-PM bowl gouge a long time back, the only reason I own 2) and I've used them on "single scoop of ice cream" size bowls up to 16"-18" bowls.

Are there advantages to all these other steels, bevel angles and flute shapes? Anecdotally, sure. But their nuances, in some instances, may not be worth your hard-earned cash, particularly when you are starting out and may have other tools to buy. Remember, many of these grinds and the tools they are on have some famous turner's name on them, another way for them to earn a living.

The, THE, most important aspect of any gouge, any turning tool, is maintaining a keen, sharp edge. (This one below is fresh off of a 180 grit CBN wheel, sharpened with the Oneway jig system.) Learn to sharpen and learn to turn before you go chasing after every bowl gouge style out there.
View attachment 63753

I agree 100%. Though my wings have a slightly more convex edge. For anyone familiar with the culinary world, I consider this gouge/grind to be the 10” chef’s knife of woodturning and use it for 95% of what I do (hollowing excluded).

 

[Darryn Achall]

Thanks Steve. I started turning about 4 years ago with the two gouges I found on sale. A crown PM with Ellsworth grind that I like to keep at 62 degrees and a used 1/2' Sorby I got for $10. It has a 55 degree swept back grind. So far I have not found a reason to expand on my bowl gouge collection. After acquiring many of the other tools and gadgets I want, the bowl gouge collection might expand. It's nice that there will be threads like this one online when making selections.

 

[Alan Weinberg]

The, THE, most important aspect of any gouge, any turning tool, is maintaining a keen, sharp edge.

This to me is the most important statement in this thread. When I first started, I did not realize the significance of this fact and it took a while both to learn the importance and to learn how to sharpen. There is not enough emphasis on sharpening in learning to turn.

 

[Odie]

Don't get too hung-up on exact angles......once you know what you want to do with your gouge, the only critical thinking to do is "do I want a longer, shorter, or unchanged bevel?"......then you just do it!

Turners make things far more complicated and exacting than it needs to be.

Save all that precise thinking for making precision cuts.....where it really counts.

-o-

 

[Neil S]

My question is about the very rounded tip you put on your 55/65deg gouges. I like having a convex profile so it can easily be used as a shear scraper on the inside of bowls but nothing as much as the exaggerated convex shape you place near the tips, almost approaching perpendicular to the shaft. I’m sure you’ve given this thought and would like to hear some of the reasoning behind this grind vs the more shallow convex shape similar to your 3/8” Thompson 42deg.

Ron

I hadn’t forgotten your question… :~}

I will try to respond with two related answers. The first is a reply on how I use those gouges with the pronounced convex area near the nose and the second is how that came about.

I use that gouge grind in four ways:

The primary use I make of that pronounced forward convex area on the wing towards the nose of the gouge is for doing the inside bottom of bowls and platters. In that area of parallel grain running across the inside bottom a wider gentler curve across the nose of the gouge allows it to make sweeping shear/slicing cuts though that zone. Some turners use scrapers to form that area inside the bottom of bowls/platters, but I never have and just use the gouges ground in this way for that purpose. I’m not recommending it, it's just what I use.​

​

The second use I make of that grind is for doing heavy pull cuts for hogging off wood when roughing down green wood blanks. I appreciate that the pull cut is not normally used for heavy hogging cuts but as a long term outboard bowl turner I find it very efficient for that. Without the inboard lathe bed in the way the gouge handle can be dropped down to whatever position you want for doing that cut inside or out. That pronounced convex edge on the wings near the nose is right where the bevel rubs for that cut and if you have long handles on your gouges you can ‘scoop’ off/out a lot of wood with that cut quite quickly. It’s not a finishing cut when used that way, but hogging cuts rarely are.​

​

I also use that extra convex area on the wing for doing undercuts inside bowls and more closed forms using a reverse push or pull scraping cut. In the transition between the under rim area and the upper inside walls that scraping cut, by default, becomes a shear scraping cut as the wood runs sideways across the nose of the gouge.​

​

Further back from the nose I have a more typical wing profile and I use that area of the wing to do my final fine finishing cuts on the outside of bowls, where I drop the handle right down and have the bevel rubbing in that wing area to produce a very fine slicing shear cut that will eliminate almost any tearout from the most challenging of woods. Nothing new there, but mentioned because that is still an option with that grind.​

So, as I said, I’m not recommending that grind to anyone, it's just what I use and I’m sharing the details here because you asked about it.

The second part of my answer is how that grind came about and is probably of even less interest to most members on the forum… :~}

When I began turning back in the early 70’s deep fluted gouges (in other words bowl gouges as distinct from spindle gouges) came with a straight across grind, like this one…



They had no sweep back on the wings, so you were only ever turning on the nose. You can see that straight-across grind in action in a photo in Peter Child’s book that he published first in 1971 where he is using it on the outside of a bowl…



So that is what I and many other turners used for a long time. You either learned to turn with them that way on crossgrain pieces or did spindle turning!

Later on Roy Child, Peter Child’s son, developed a bowl gouge in the UK with a flute that he described as elliptical that was manufactured by Henry Taylor and called a Superflute. At about the same time Jerry Glaser in the US was experimenting with V flutes and grinds on those. Both the Child and Glaser flutes were more favourable to a swept back grind on the wings (fingernail grind), but I was unable to explore those grinds until I got my first HT Superflute gouges in the eighties, which opened up various wing options for me. However, as you can see from my grinds, I still have a lot of convex wing that sits forward towards the nose on some of my gouges, which is a leftover from those earlier years.

I never set out to grind those gouges to achieve a specific cut or purpose, they just evolved over time to be that way. I'm comfortable using them in the way that I do, but can understand that they are unlikely suit those that have had a different starting point or path in their turning journey.

 

[hughie]

I never set out to grind those gouges to achieve a specific cut or purpose, they just evolved over time to be that way. I'm comfortable using them in the way that I do, but can understand that they are unlikely suit those that have had a different starting point or path in their turning journey.

Like wise, many of the 'standard grinds or angles " I dont really have or do. I find this process is an evolving thing, true after many years this evolving process slows down some as I find what works for me on the species I turn and what I turn or make. I think the idea to have an open mind to new ideas concepts as they come along so you can review them with minimal bias and so you can take up or not.

 

[Darryn Achall]

Like wise, many of the 'standard grinds or angles " I dont really have or do. I find this process is an evolving thing, true after many years this evolving process slows down some as I find what works for me on the species I turn and what I turn or make. I think the idea to have an open mind to new ideas concepts as they come along so you can review them with minimal bias and so you can take up or not.

Open mind and always learning is what makes turning interesting and worthwhile for me. Making something I've not done before is motivating. Further perfecting something I've done before pushes my skills foreword.

 

[hughie]

Open mind and always learning is what makes turning interesting and worthwhile for me. Making something I've not done before is motivating. Further perfecting something I've done before pushes my skills foreword.

Lol my current project is causing several mods to my gear before I even start. But as you say change/new is motivating