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Size limitation of cross-grain lidded boxes

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For years now I've been wondering about making larger cross-grain lidded boxes. I haven't seen many boxes larger than 4-5 inches across, though. Seems like working with a single piece of wood would help mitigate the effects of the movement. Have any of you seen larger cross-grain boxes with lids? I'd love to look at some examples if you know of any. Clear vertical-grained wood would give me a more consistent seasonal movement. Burl might randomize the movement. Turning in stages to allow the wood to flex between operations could also help.

Basically, I'd be curious to hear any of your experiences about making large (say, wider than 7-8") cross-grain lidded boxes.
Kalia in Sebastopol
 
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I made one about 8 inches in diameter, pretty shallow, out of store bought, beautiful straight grained purple heart. Everything went well making it - lid fit great when it was done, no cupping or distortion. I don't know how it has fared long term - sent off to the owner in the east bay, and at least haven't heard any complaints back.
 
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So many variables. Moisture level of the wood to start with, where the box is going to reside, fit of the lid to start with, wall thickness of the box and lid, and of course wood species. All this will always make that design a hit or miss proposition. One turners success will be another turners failure.
 

hockenbery

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with cross gain there are two wood movements. Ovaling - not too much of an issue. The lids stop turning but usually continue to press on and pull off easily
the other wood movement is cupping and this interferes with the lid going on off and usually leaves gaps in the rim fit If you do get the lid on. Cupping of the lid and base will not usually match because the lid height will be a lot less than the height of the base.

the wood movement is linear with size a 10” diameter will have twice the movement of a 5” diameter.

Lid designs where the lid is like a loose fitting hat or the lid rests on a recessed sloping shelf like a pot top work pretty well for larger diameters.


in theory stable dry wood kept at 72 degrees and 50% humidity 24/7 356 will have no wood movement.
 
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Adding a pin or some other locating feature to the join ensures the lid always sits in the ideal position. That, combined with slightly loose fit and careful wood/grain selection should cover most problems related to movement.
 
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Does this count? I’ve been experimenting with a concept I call Travelin’ Bowls. This set is a 15” lidded bowl with a 12” serving bowl and an 8” condiment dish held together with cord/handles secured with rare earth magnets. All are from one large blank - in this case Big Leaf Maple, the lid separated with a Macnaughton straight cutter, the other bowls cored from the resulting blank.
The lid doubles as a platter.
I do turn the largest bowl and the lid in stages - they get triple turned rather than twice turned to allow for movement and relaxing internal stresses. This the first of three sets that will be shown for the first time at the next studio tour in May. It will be interesting to see how they are received.
 

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Kalia,
I have made a number of end grain containers that have ended up pretty large.
Some medium sized boxes. Think 5-6 inch.
Attached is a picture of a Black Oak container that is 8" in diameter x 5+ " in height. The lid is not a hard tight fit, but snug. Unfinished at this time as I have not decided if it needs a small handle on the lid. Working on that. Twice turned.
Question I have is: what does one do with a large container? Could be used as an urn.....but from what I gather, urns should be less than 8" diameter due to the size of the post hole that is dug.
I was looking around the shop and house and that one is the largest at 8" ....that I have.

Hugh
 

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Does this count? I’ve been experimenting with a concept I call Travelin’ Bowls. This set is a 15” lidded bowl with a 12” serving bowl and an 8” condiment dish held together with cord/handles secured with rare earth magnets. All are from one large blank - in this case Big Leaf Maple, the lid separated with a Macnaughton straight cutter, the other bowls cored from the resulting blank.
The lid doubles as a platter.
I do turn the largest bowl and the lid in stages - they get triple turned rather than twice turned to allow for movement and relaxing internal stresses. This the first of three sets that will be shown for the first time at the next studio tour in May. It will be interesting to see how they are received.
This definitely counts! Thanks so much for the photos. How long did you wait between cutting stages for the big bowl and lid? Have they stayed reasonably true since you finished them?
 
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Kalia,
I have made a number of end grain containers that have ended up pretty large.
Some medium sized boxes. Think 5-6 inch.
Attached is a picture of a Black Oak container that is 8" in diameter x 5+ " in height. The lid is not a hard tight fit, but snug. Unfinished at this time as I have not decided if it needs a small handle on the lid. Working on that. Twice turned.
Question I have is: what does one do with a large container? Could be used as an urn.....but from what I gather, urns should be less than 8" diameter due to the size of the post hole that is dug.
I was looking around the shop and house and that one is the largest at 8" ....that I have.

Hugh
Hi Hugh! The thing that I was asking about, and I realize now that the question was ambiguous, is cross-grain bowls with large-diameter _lids_. The one that Jeff Smith posted above is a really good example of the form that I've been considering, and I'm looking forward to hearing more about how he breaks up the turning process. He says he did it in 3 stages, rather than the more usual 2, to give the wood even more time to get all the flexing out of its system. I guess "lidded bowl" is a better descriptive term.
Kalia
 
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I don't think I would want a close fit on a lidded form that was side grain. As others have said, wood movement can be a problem. I did see a side/bowl grained box, maybe 3 inch diameter that was made by Kip Christianson (spell???) some years back, and the lid still fit perfectly, years after it was turned. I don't know Kip's methods of doing his boxes. As I said in my thread about the Oregon Woodturning Symposium, Eric Lofstrom does his 'Breathing' boxes 3 or so inch diameter with a 1 inch tenon, and he 'rough turns' them in several stages over 6 or more months. They are end grain boxes. The fit seems to stay good over a few years, and the rough turning in stages does seem to work for that size. Not sure how it would do with side grain boxes/lidded forms. Only one way to find out, and that is to try it.

robo hippy
 
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I don't think I would want a close fit on a lidded form that was side grain. As others have said, wood movement can be a problem. I did see a side/bowl grained box, maybe 3 inch diameter that was made by Kip Christianson (spell???) some years back, and the lid still fit perfectly, years after it was turned. I don't know Kip's methods of doing his boxes. As I said in my thread about the Oregon Woodturning Symposium, Eric Lofstrom does his 'Breathing' boxes 3 or so inch diameter with a 1 inch tenon, and he 'rough turns' them in several stages over 6 or more months. They are end grain boxes. The fit seems to stay good over a few years, and the rough turning in stages does seem to work for that size. Not sure how it would do with side grain boxes/lidded forms. Only one way to find out, and that is to try it.

robo hippy
I agree that a close fit would be asking for trouble, but if it's possible to get the lid and box to stay in reasonable agreement (for a flexible definition of "reasonable), then lidded bowls could be a great form to play with.
 
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This definitely counts! Thanks so much for the photos. How long did you wait between cutting stages for the big bowl and lid? Have they stayed reasonably true since you finished them?
After determining that I wanted to design these to efficiently use up some very large maple blanks I needed to get to I needed to rough them out pretty quickly. I was in a hurry for the first set - the one in the photos. The initial blanks were pretty dry (for my island shop) - about 12 - 14%, but I brought them down to within about 10 to 15% from final size after they sat for about eight weeks or so. I left them on the shelf for another 6 or 8 weeks before bringing them the final size and finish turning.

The lid/platter is a loose fit with a raised curb that fits inside the bowl rim to keep it from shifting. I've done four sets so far - two are Big Leaf Maple with 15 and 16" diameter main bowls and two are Madrone (straight grain) that are slightly smaller (14" - 12").

So far, none have moved to the point that its apparent without looking very closely. Strangely enough, the madrone versions have moved the least - but these blanks were taken from a standing dead tree that was cut and left on the ground for a couple of months by a local forester before I got to it.

The cords that hold it all together - small bowl on top of the lid/platter, mid-sized bowl inside the main/large one - are actually reasonably loose and not attempting to hold the lid and bowl with any hard strain - just keep it all together for easy transport.

I often boil blanks when they are freshly cored - always for green madrone. This time I did not boil any of the blanks I set aside for these sets. The Madrone I used was pretty dry already, coming from standing dead trees and having sat in front of my shop for several months so I thought it was safe to skip the boil when I cored. The Big leaf maple had also been sitting for quite a while and wasn't as freshly green as I usually have for coring. I felt comfortable not boiling it either.
 
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After determining that I wanted to design these to efficiently use up some very large maple blanks I needed to get to I needed to rough them out pretty quickly. I was in a hurry for the first set - the one in the photos. The initial blanks were pretty dry (for my island shop) - about 12 - 14%, but I brought them down to within about 10 to 15% from final size after they sat for about eight weeks or so. I left them on the shelf for another 6 or 8 weeks before bringing them the final size and finish turning.
Thanks so much for the detailed process info. I've been wanting to make some carved-lid bowls for a long time but have been hesitant to try it. Now I know it can be done, and will keep an eye out for the perfect chunks of wood to set aside for it.
Also, I've just now realized that in the photo of the full set corded together, the small bowl nests upside-down into the bottom of the platter. Lovely design!

Kalia
 
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Thanks so much for the detailed process info. I've been wanting to make some carved-lid bowls for a long time but have been hesitant to try it. Now I know it can be done, and will keep an eye out for the perfect chunks of wood to set aside for it.
Also, I've just now realized that in the photo of the full set corded together, the small bowl nests upside-down into the bottom of the platter. Lovely design!

Kalia
Thanks - yes, the small bowl is on top. It sits in the recess that is the foot of the lid/platter.
I’m rethinking the platter/lid form - trying to find a way to eliminate or minimize the curb that fits inside the rim. I don’t like the lid overlapping the rim of the bowl, but haven’t come up with a solution that appeals to me. Here’s a shot of one of the smaller madrone versions in progress of fitting the cords and another maple version with the cord handles being fitted.
0D76CE75-99CE-47FA-B2CC-A56260362844.jpeg35056399-E3C7-48F3-9E6C-BC0CE5521ECF.jpeg
 
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A few years back a friend asked me if I could make him an oryoki set, which got me thinking about functional nested sets, and while researching online I saw a few bowl sets with plates that also acted as lids. The concept has stuck with me but I haven't yet dived in. Jeff, you're inspiring me!
 
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And here I was thinking of a cookie jar.
The picture I posted the other day would not work as the hole is too small to fit a nice sized cookie, let alone putting one's hand inside and grabbing a hand full.

So....this perfect chunk of wood......Are you looking for a piece that is large enough to turn a bowl and the cover from the same half of the log?
My thinking here is that the two parts would warp roughly the same amount in the same direction as time passed.

I want to see what you end up with. Interesting.
Hugh
 
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From your avatar and posts its clear you’ve got the skills - it might help if you’re familiar with coring. That’s what got me started in this direction. I wanted to get the most from some large half-rounds I had. Just go for it. If it was rocket science I wouldn’t have gotten as far as I have. Besides, if the lid doesn’t work, you’ve still got a bowl…

I did find the most intimidating part was slicing off the lid/platter. I hadn’t used the straight blade from the Macnaughton for anything that large (an 18” blank). I don’t try to cut it through, but get it about half way and use a dozuki saw to finish.
 
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From your avatar and posts its clear you’ve got the skills - it might help if you’re familiar with coring. That’s what got me started in this direction. I wanted to get the most from some large half-rounds I had. Just go for it. If it was rocket science I wouldn’t have gotten as far as I have. Besides, if the lid doesn’t work, you’ve still got a bowl…

I did find the most intimidating part was slicing off the lid/platter. I hadn’t used the straight blade from the Macnaughton for anything that large (an 18” blank). I don’t try to cut it through, but get it about half way and use a dozuki saw to finish.
I usually use the Easy-core system, but picked up a used McNaughton set a couple of years ago. It still intimidates me greatly, but using the straight cutter to part off a lid would be pretty straightforward (so to speak). I was thinking that sawing through the nub would be smarter than trying to part it all the way off. Glad to hear you agree.
 
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And here I was thinking of a cookie jar.
The picture I posted the other day would not work as the hole is too small to fit a nice sized cookie, let alone putting one's hand inside and grabbing a hand full.

So....this perfect chunk of wood......Are you looking for a piece that is large enough to turn a bowl and the cover from the same half of the log?
My thinking here is that the two parts would warp roughly the same amount in the same direction as time passed.

I want to see what you end up with. Interesting.
Hugh
I'm going to spend the rest of the day picturing you with a cookie jar stuck on your hand, unwilling to let go of the treats inside :>)
And yes, I think using a single chunk of wood would make whatever warpage happens at least consistent, though I've certainly taken pieces of wood apart and seen them twist in radically different directions. A nice straight-grained trunk section would be a good start, not one of those whacky side-hill lateral branches.
Aw geez, I have to get out to the shop. Too much time chatting here, and my bandsaw awaits :>)
 
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These canister type containers are made of green end grain birch and the dry bottoms are inserted before the side walls dry/shrink but the lids are cross grain and when the house dries out in the winter time the lids go oval, the sides shrink and the groove in the lid may need some adjusting. The opening is between 5 & 6" in diameter. The bottom line is it doesn't matter what the grain orientation is the bigger the lid the more problems.

7024-5-6Birch.JPG
 
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OK, serious pants back on. Years ago, Keith Gottschall came to our club for a workshop and I decided to try a face grain, covered bowl, rather than my usual hemispherical bowls or end grain boxes. I used 8/4 kiln dried maple lumber, and because it was a practice piece, I ended up trying out just about every technique Keith covered in the workshop, so it seemed pretty 'busy'. (I may have been a Shaker in a previous lifetime) The result strikes me as an unitentional tortilla box, and is 7 1/2" X 3 1/4". The slightly 'sloppy' fit on my covered bowl still works, 9 years later. The poor quality photos suggest the lid is bulkier than it actually is in person.

IMHO, if you want a press-fit, friction-fit, piston-fit, suction-fit or otherwise snug lid, you've just got to go end grain.

liddedboxGotschall1.jpgliddedboxGotschall3.jpg
 
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If I was gong for a lidded bowl, I would make the lid out of the same piece of lumber. That way, when the wood does move, theoretically, the lid and bowl will move in the same direction. The lid may not be able to spin, but the lid should still be removable without chisels. There is an old black and white video somewhere, from the 1920s or so, and the turner makes a lidded bowl out of dried board stock.

robo hippy
 
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The sets I’ve made so far are all from one half-round log section. The lid is sliced from the bowl blank top and sits in the same relative position to the big bowl. The smaller bowls are cored from the larger blank and the only one that does not occupy the same relative position as it did in the tree is the smallest bowl that is nested on top. The first three I’ve made (two maple, one madrone) have been sitting finished for just about a year now and movement of the lid and the large bowl has been negligible.

I use the quarter sawn sections from cutting out the pith from the rounds - mill it up and use for handles and wall racks for finished pieces. I hate to throw wood away or turn it into shavings if I can find a use for it.
 
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Kalia, I never made a larger cross-grain box, as I would expect them to split or as they move have them get stuck, warp and not fit together after a while.
Osage Orange 2003.jpg

Osage Orange box.jpg now look.jpg

I made this Osage Orange box in 2003, it is not very large about 6 or 7 inches, and it was just fine until this winter, somehow the lid was set so that when the sun hit it, it did split, it was not a close fitting lid but both parts had gotten oval a little, then it changed enough this winter, that it got so tight that the lid split after 20 years.
 
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I use the quarter sawn sections from cutting out the pith from the rounds - mill it up and use for handles and wall racks for finished pieces. I hate to throw wood away or turn it into shavings if I can find a use for it.
I love those vertical-grain slices. Here in my shop they turn into spatulas, hairpins, cocktail muddlers and sometimes little shallow pinch bowls.
 
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I turn a far amount of large bowls. People point out that they like having a large bowl around, but. It is often too large for easy storage and takes up counter space. I started building these racks from the quarter sawn lumber. - freestanding and wall mounted. The bowl easily slides in with one hand.
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Watched a video yesterday about making a Japanese marking knife. Cutting part was from an old plane iron, and the handle was a piece of brass. He cut dove tails for it. The fit was a bit loose, but the brass was thicker than the cutting blade. He tapped the brass part to make the fit perfect..... I have done one set of hand cut dove tails that actually look like I knew what I was doing......

robo hippy
 
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