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Spindle Run out - 3520A

Joined
Jan 8, 2021
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Location
Wrentham, MA
Just picked up a Powermatic 3520A second hand, and there is some very noticeable wobble. It occurs with all 3 faceplates (obviously more noticeable with the 6" vs. the 3") and with a brand new Nova Supernova chuck. Can't quite see the wobble with nothing attached, nor with the drive center.

The lathe operates very quietly, and there is no obvious noise from bearings, but it is clear I need to do something. I also have not noticed any heat on the spindle or headstock. My google-fu has turned up instructions on how to replace a spindle, and I'm not a stranger to replacing bearings so that part is reasonably straight forward. My question is can one ascertain if the issue is a bearing or the spindle itself, without removal from the lathe? If so, how?

If I replace the spindle, I will redo the bearings and probably the belt since I'm in there anyway. I'd not be thrilled to purchase a spindle, and then find out it was only a bearing issue.
 
probably need a magnetic holder and dial indicator gauge that reads in .0001" (hundred thousandths) or at least thousandths if you aren't anal about absolute precision on things like that (I would be, I'd call my tolerance for runout to be .0003" if it was an expensive lathe) If you set it up right you can check for: first, lateral end play (bearing side play) and if you detect little to none of that, rotating the spindle to check runout... But if there's no runout measuring that way, may have to measure on the shoulder of the spindle (where the faceplates would be seating) to see if there's any waves, nicks, or similar variations which would cause faceplate / chuck to snug up "cocked" to one side (within thread clearance tolerances)
 
Based on your description, it sounds like a chuck problem. Put a center into the headstock and bring the live center up to it and rotate the spindle by hand. Then apply lateral force on the headstock and see if there is relative motion of the centers. If both of these tests succeed, the problem probably is in the chuck. It is not unusual for chuck jaws to be slightly misaligned. Generally it is not a problem unless turning very small pieces. There are ways to correct the problem.
 
To check for bearing wear you can also put a dial indicator on magnetic base with the indicator touching the top of spindle, put a brass rod into the headstock hole, push down on rod then lift up on the rod and see if there is any reading on the dial indicator. Do you have a mechanics stethoscope ? If so listen to the bearings when lathe is running. I would do the checks Brian said above first.
 
Resolution: Took a closer look and discovered the last 1/2" of the threads was munged up - a bit of work with a file and the runout disappeared. FWIW - the faceplates looked like they snugged up against the spindle shoulder but clearly did not, and the chuck absolutely did not. Never used an insert previously so definitely a bit of user error/oversight in play. It now seems smooth as it should be. Thanks.
 
Have you cleaned and checked the spindle face. It should align the chuck even if the threads are damaged. Make sure all the chucks and faceplates bottom out against the spindle face.
 
probably need a magnetic holder and dial indicator gauge that reads in .0001" (hundred thousandths) or at least thousandths if you aren't anal about absolute precision on things like that (I would be, I'd call my tolerance for runout to be .0003" if it was an expensive lathe) If you set it up right you can check for: first, lateral end play (bearing side play) and if you detect little to none of that, rotating the spindle to check runout... But if there's no runout measuring that way, may have to measure on the shoulder of the spindle (where the faceplates would be seating) to see if there's any waves, nicks, or similar variations which would cause faceplate / chuck to snug up "cocked" to one side (within thread clearance tolerances)
To check for bearing wear you can also put a dial indicator on magnetic base with the indicator touching the top of spindle, put a brass rod into the headstock hole, push down on rod then lift up on the rod and see if there is any reading on the dial indicator. Do you have a mechanics stethoscope ? If so listen to the bearings when lathe is running. I would do the checks Brian said above first.

Just checked before posting and I can see that you have found the source of (and fixed) your problem. Anyway, I'll still post the following in case it helps someone else another time. I can also see that John has given similar advice.....

I am not familiar with the typical issues with that lathe, but I would begin with what Brian and Vincent suggest before thinking about replacing bearings.

If there is visible runout with four different chucks then I would be thinking that it is more of an issue with the spindle shoulder or thread or shaft... in that order.

First thing I would do is to check to see if the chucks are seating up against the spindle shoulder as that is the area that ensures a good chuck runs true. If not, as Brian suggests, look to see if there are any dings or crud on the shoulder and that the spindle thread looks good. Not that the spindle thread itself ensures that chucks run true, but they can prevent them from doing so if the thread doesn't allow the chuck to pull firmly up against the spindle shoulder.

Worth mentioning is that sometimes the threaded end of the spindle can be longer than the threaded recess in the back of the chuck, which prevents the chuck from properly mating up against the spindle shoulder. Given that your four different chucks have a runout, this is unlikely to be the cause of your problem. But if this appears to be the case, a check for this, and a temporary solution, is to add some flat washers to the spindle until the chucks seats firmly up against them. A more permanent solution to that problem is to either get chucks with deeper threaded recesses or cut off some of the spindle thread so the chucks snug up against the spindle shoulder... a bit drastic, so you would need to be convinced that that is the problem. BTW, you don't need to worry about how precise the cutoff is as it is not the end of the spindle that ensures that chucks run true but the shoulder.

In my experienced you are more likely have noise/heat issues than significant runout from a worn bearing. If you don't have a mechanics stethoscope, use a long screw driver and place the handle end against your ear and the screw driving end against the bearing housing... a worn bearing will have a low growl. The nose bearing is more likely to be worn than the back bearing.

For my purposes a small amount of runout is not an issue for most of what I do as a woodturner, so any of the cheaper dial indicators is more than adequate for my purposes and even a feeler gauge inserted between the chuck face and and the tool rest are more than sufficient to get a meaningful measure.
 
For my purposes a small amount of runout is not an issue for most of what I do as a woodturner, so any of the cheaper dial indicators is more than adequate for my purposes and even a feeler gauge inserted between the chuck face and and the tool rest are more than sufficient to get a meaningful measure.
I agree with Neil. Small amounts of wobble have almost no effect on turning results as long as the orientation of the wobble relative to the work piece remains constant. The result would be a small, but constant, shift of the spin axis from the position it would have without the wobble. The wobble would become significant only if the orientation of the work piece rotates relative to the supports. For example, if the work piece rotates relative to the drive center or the piece is unchucked and and rechucked in a different orientation.
 
FWIW, using a feeler gauge, the runout at the end of both a chuck and a faceplace measured in the range of .010. Way more than is reasonable - quite visible, now it seems to be next to nothing.
 
I agree with Neil. Small amounts of wobble have almost no effect on turning results as long as the orientation of the wobble relative to the work piece remains constant. The result would be a small, but constant, shift of the spin axis from the position it would have without the wobble. The wobble would become significant only if the orientation of the work piece rotates relative to the supports. For example, if the work piece rotates relative to the drive center or the piece is unchucked and and rechucked in a different orientation.
An important exception is pen making, where the axis of rotation must be very closely aligned with the brass tube.
 
I am sure you checked but didn’t see it mentioned. I had the same problem with an old midi size lathe. Ended up being the belt was way too tight. I loosened the motor and just snugged the belt and the problem was gone.
 
Resolution: Took a closer look and discovered the last 1/2" of the threads was munged up - a bit of work with a file and the runout disappeared. FWIW - the faceplates looked like they snugged up against the spindle shoulder but clearly did not, and the chuck absolutely did not. Never used an insert previously so definitely a bit of user error/oversight in play. It now seems smooth as it should be. Thanks.
I use set screws with chucks (Hollowing in reverse) and the spindle threads get dinged. As you found a little file work cleans it up.
 
Here's an inexpensive way to diagnose the issue:
- Buy a "bullet laser" (boresighter) from a sporting goods store - the longer the better - I paid around $15 for my Remington .223
- FIRST PIC: Mount a scrap piece of baltic birch on a faceplate, mount on lathe, and drill a thru-hole the exact size of the cartridge neck
- SECOND PIC: ADJUSTER ASS'Y: 20/20 hindsight says my solution is gross overkill - you can do the same with a couple of pcs of baltic birch with large holes - anything to hold four adjuster screws
- SECOND PIC cont'd: The chamber/adjuster assembly does NOT have to be accurate - accuracy is accomplished with the adjusters
- THIRD PIC: The target shown here is at the end of the outboard bed (about 5-ft). Actually I started at the shop wall (15-FT) - rurn the lathe spindle in 90-degree increments and tweak the adjusters until the red-dot doesn't move.
- FOURTH PIC: Mount the assembly outboard, and again, adjust till the red-dot doesn't move when the tail-stock / live-center is at the extreme of the bed

CONCLUSION: If the red-dot doesn't move through 360-degrees, your spindle is good. If the red-dot is exactly on the live-center point as it is moved up/down the bed, you're good to go

You'll find this comes in handy as you do a Rupe Goldberg modification for your upcoming four-poster bed
 

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