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TIN coated HSS - any thoughts or information on these tools?

Joined
Jan 23, 2023
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Location
Calgary, AB
I didn't want to hijack any of the threads on sharpening or HSS types so I'm starting a new thread on TIN coatings. I just came across these tools from New Zealand. Anyone know anything about these and if there are any advantages? TIN coating have been around for awhile in the drill bit sector and for some metal cutting applications, but I was under the assumption it was more for ease of chip removal than for edge durability.


Be safe and stay well.
Barry W. Larson
Calgary, Alberta, Canada eh!
 
Anyone know anything about these and if there are any advantages? TIN coating have been around for awhile in the drill bit sector and for some metal cutting applications, but I was under the assumption it was more for ease of chip removal than for edge durability.

I have a 1/2” Robust gouge (5/8 dia bar) that has a nitride treatment. No mention if titanium just nitride,

Robust Tool performs well. Takes a nice edge, cuts well, chip removal is great but it is a has a parabolic flute and that flute profile does not clog.
I’m not a good judge on how long the edge lasts because I’m always sharpening a useable edge as I move through steps in a turning.

I have a couple Jamieson gouges made by Thompson

In use both the Robust and the Jamieson will turn a 4” sphere without sharpening.
Both will hollow a 8x5 Natural edge bowl without sharpening but i alway sharpen when I begin to finish turn the inside wall.
The tools are Cutting well when I do this, just want the sharpest tool at this step.
 
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I also have some Robust tools. Still pretty new at using them. They seem to hold an edge well but like AL I sharpen so frequently that I seldom really test an edge. According to Brent the coating on these tools actually penetrates the metal a short ways. Not sure what the advantage is.
 
Nitriding is not a coating. It is a heat treatment that infuses nitrogen into the surface of the steel. This creates a very hard material surface that is less 8 microns thick (typical) which does not readily oxidize (rust). That is about 0.0003 inch. The idea is the very hard material will hold an edge longer than the base material without being brittle.
TiN is a coating that is also very hard, very thin and is removable. It predominantly reduces friction in metal tool application. I have no idea if it does anything for tools used on wood but the idea is the hard coating will reduce wear on the chisel.
 
I got a couple of the Robust gouges from Brent for an article. For me to do the article Brent said I must state that I work in the Thompson Tool Booth which I agreed to. Before the article was to be published the magazine was stopped due to the editors retirement. They were good looking tools and cut just fine but I didn't see them staying any sharper longer than regular high speed steel. That was just my own finding. I let numerous folks try them and some liked them and some didn't, not any different findings than any other brand of tools. I passed them on and hopefully folks are still trying them out.
 
Isn't the coating removed when you sharpen and hone the edge?

Hi Roger, Brent from Robust Tools here. The cutting edge on a gouge is defined by the flute and the surface you grind at the end. Since the entire gouge gets the treatment, the flute has it too. So when you grind the end of the gouge, the treatment is still on the flute and therefore right on the very cutting edge. Same for scrapers if you leave the top alone. The burr has the treatment. Of course, there is no treatment left on the edge of a skew chisel. I suppose aggressive honing could remove the treatment.
 
Brent, could you confirm Robust Nitriding tools are HSS M2?
Also, what's your impression on scrapers - M2 Nitriding vs. M42 steel?

I'm trying scrapers, Robust Nitriding vs. D-Way, both 1" wide, square end. Grinding with 180 CBN wheel, 45 degree bewel. I believe Robust is M2 and D-Way is M42. I'd say Robust feels "sharper" right out of the grinder, and makes it "easier" to have the proper shavings? However, D-Way probably keeps an edge "longer", not sure yet how much.
 
Back to Barry's original question... I've always heard (but admittedly never researched through authoritative sources) that the titanium nitride coating was beneficial to drill bits and similar cutters drilling steel/hot steel to encourage hot chips to evacuate the flutes faster and/or easier, to keep the bit cooler. But it is a surface coating, and as such its presence and benefit at the cutting edge flute/facet junction will be determined by the grit of the grinding media that sharpened the edge. I have my doubts, which could be wrong, as to the TIN coating being beneficial to the woodturner. I'll remain skeptical until proven otherwise by the scientific method. If our shavings were as hot as what that coating protects against, your lathe would be spinning a bonfire. To make a better (or rather advantageous edge condition for cutting certain materials such as steel), the steel alloy composition and heat treating process of the steel that becomes the drill, or lathe tool, is far more important that what coating may be applied to the steel. More can be learned about tool steel properties in that steel post I made in the off-topic section a few weeks ago. Think of that website as a masterclass for us common folk, but its audience is the knife blade-making community. The general knowledge itself is worthwhile to those curious about tool steels. The author is a phd metallurgist specializing in steels. He has a youtube presence as well.

Here is an article by him about nitrogen/nitriding of steel.
Note the comment, "In nitriding a nitrogen-rich gas such as ammonia (NH3) is used along with high temperature steel so that the nitrogen diffuses into the surface leading to a hard surface and soft core. A similar process using carbon instead is called carburizing. Nitriding has seen little (none?) use in knives, perhaps because it is typically a surface treatment whereas knives are made to be resharpened." You'll need to read the whole article to put this statement into proper context.
 
The early nitride coatings were pretty much junk. I figure the newer stuff has to be much better. I can't remember, but I think I have one of the Robust gouges in my shop some where. I have all Thompson and D Way gouges and scrapers in my shop. The M42 and V10 edges just hold up much better than standard M2 HSS. I still like a fresh edge for the finish cut though. I am not sure how the nitride coatings hold up if you strop the inside of your flute.

robo hippy
 
Here is an article by him about nitrogen/nitriding of steel.
Thank you Steve, very good details!
 
It seems to me that in most applications, TIN is used as a marketing gimmick. Put it on crappy steel, and sell it as “premium”. In my mind, TIN has become synonymous with “cheap”.

I have never had a tool where TIN was added to good quality steel, so don’t know if it would help. All I know is that adding it to crappy steel doesn’t make it good steel.
 
10V, specifically CPM-10V. "CPM" is Crucible Powder Metallurgy, 10V refers to the vanadium content of the alloy. The Crucible company developed large scale PM technology. It was probably Jerry Glaser that first brought the alloy, and CPM-15V, to the woodturner. Articles about each steel, here. (This is a site dedicated to steels used in knifemaking, but turning tools are an easy leap.)

CPM-10V

CPM-15V

From the same site, an article regarding edge toughness vs. edge retention.

And to continue the journey of going far afield, I'd recently written to Crown asking about the alloy in their Pro-PM tools (which I've really liked for the past 25 years). In the early days, that alloy was private info, but now they've told me, and I asked if it is the same alloy today. Here is the reply I promptly received from Crown:
"Yes I can confirm it is the same steel. It is called S390. After multiple tests we still feel this is the optimum steel for the balance between hardness, toughness, sharpness and wear resistance.
Kind regards,
Charlotte Wardle
Director"

S390 is a bit tougher to find info on, but back to knifesteelnerds/Dr. Larrin Thomas, he gave some info and a link back to his site at this knife forum'
Post in thread 'S390 steel' https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/s390-steel.1958293/post-22300282

Moral of the story- if you are shopping for high end steel turning tools, you should consider Crown Pro-PM along with the others. I've found them to take an extremely keen, long lasting edge. And Carter's use of M42 needs to be strongly considered as well, I've brought in several in the past year.

Attributes of all of these steels can be found at the knifesteelnerds website. (He doesn't maintain an index, but a google search of his site name and the steel alloy you want to know about will net results.)
 
It seems to me that in most applications, TIN is used as a marketing gimmick. Put it on crappy steel, and sell it as “premium”. In my mind, TIN has become synonymous with “cheap”.

I have never had a tool where TIN was added to good quality steel, so don’t know if it would help. All I know is that adding it to crappy steel doesn’t make it good steel.
Agreed. It has its legitimate place in industry, but I think it's a good marketing scheme in other areas, too.
 
Bill beat me to it. Yes, I have a number of Thompson tools. Love his bowl gouges! I think Jimmy Clewes, Lyle Jamieson, and Cindy Drozda all have "signature" tools. I generally prefer the more open V flutes to the more closed ones. I did have a Glaser V gouge, and the flute was just far too narrow and kept plugging up when roughing. I think I had heard that Doug was looking into a parabolic flute, but have not heard anything more about it. I did pick up a couple of M42 parabolic flute gouges, and I don't think they perform any better than the V flutes.

robo hippy
 
So I thought the question was about TiN coating, not nitriding. Sorby has a line of Tin gouges. I got them when I first started turning. Before I knew about Thompson, or m42. They're not any better.

I do like treating mine with blueing chemical, then with Teflon, like motorcycle chain lube. It keeps the flutes clear, or at least easier to clean out.
 
Well, TiN coating is typically only a few microns (μm) thick, so will only work till the first time you sharpen the tool. TiN is typically used on carbide replacement tips.
 
Folks a tool is only as good as the person using it. No tool is going to make you a better turner on its own. For me the only difference in turning tools is how long they stay sharp. Now sharpening any tool can make a huge difference for a person using it. Knowing how to sharpen a tool can make a difference on any tool. For me as stated many times as far as non carbide turning tools I use Thompson Tools (10V) and I sharpen them with the Vector grind fixture and I'll guarantee you that using that fixture with these tools I'll never wear out one out. Yes and as far as carbide Hunter carbide stays sharp so long you kinda think is this ever going to get dull? Take this from a person who started out by buying almost every turning tool on the face of this earth, always searching for that magical tool. It took quite a while to realize that I needed to learn how to sharpen and use any tool I bought. There is no magic tool, learning the basics and then continue learning is the key.
 
Folks a tool is only as good as the person using it. No tool is going to make you a better turner on its own. For me the only difference in turning tools is how long they stay sharp. Now sharpening any tool can make a huge difference for a person using it. Knowing how to sharpen a tool can make a difference on any tool. (snipped) Take this from a person who started out by buying almost every turning tool on the face of this earth, always searching for that magical tool. It took quite a while to realize that I needed to learn how to sharpen and use any tool I bought. There is no magic tool, learning the basics and then continue learning is the key.
(I snipped Bill's product rec. from above to separate it from the perfect thoughts regarding sharpening.)

Bill, I could not agree any more, your words are a grand slam.

Any tool steel alloy created for use as an edge tool will produce, oh, let's call it "scalpel-like" results when sharpened properly (an entirely different topic of subjective and objective ideas). Where differences in steels come in to play is, as the manufacturer rep from my earlier post above stated, "the balance between hardness, toughness, sharpness and wear resistance." There is no singular right balance of these features, and for Bill, and most of us, "the only difference in turning tools is how long they stay sharp." And, of course, the money you are willing to trade for them. Bill, and myself, and you, you, and you, have settled on, or are still exploring, which tool makers meet the right balance for our purposes. Tool manufacturers sell us steel, at pricepoints we choose to accept, that they feel will excel in performance cutting our media and method of choice- wood, spinning on a motorized lathe. The spinning on a lathe is what makes the woodWORKING (deliberate emphasis) tools we use for this process advantageous to our processes. This is an abusive woodWORKING process, an entirely different animal than, say, woodWORKING a lump of wood held in the hand and carved into a figurine with small knives. Tool steels such as O1, A2, 52100, and a few others will excel in that realm, but would probably not be the first choices to a motor-powered wood lathe operator, because those steels don't provide the motorized woodturner the attribute balance they need. (But, they offer wonderful results to the tredle lathe operator, esp. those that may forge their own tools.)

Woodturning steels-
$ M2, M4, M42, A11/10V, 15V $$$$ Take your pick. All provide superb results, with trade-offs. It's a balancing act.

The long and short of it is this- you know your budget, and you know (or you're getting to know) your demands and desires. If you're a lathe operator churning through hundreds, or thousands of cubic feet of lumber a year, or if you are a hobbiest having fun for a few hours on Tuesday evenings after a day at work, you can be confident that the reputable tool manufacturers out there have gear to meet your needs and budget. Does the hobbiest need the most advanced steels available today? Can a full-time production turner be as efficient and economic as possible with good ol' M2 steel? The ouija board answer to both is no. Well, possible, but not probable. Make objective, evidence-based decisions that serve your purpose, and you'll likely get to save more money and spend more time turning wood.
 
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I have a few Thompson tools, where I really noticed a difference was the scrapers. The first time I used one was a revelatory experience!
 
I have a few Thompson tools, where I really noticed a difference was the scrapers. The first time I used one was a revelatory experience!
Yeah, same. It took me a year to put a handle on my Thompson 1-3/8 scraper, but I was using it daily and it was amazing on day 1.
 
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