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Tool Steel

CindyDrozda

CindyDrozda

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Jun 25, 2010
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Boulder, Colorado
In case anyone wants to get into a discussion on the merits and/or disadvantages of CPM 10V (A11) (Thompson Tools) vs our standby M2 HSS for turning tools, here is a double-barreled earful of my own opinion on the subject:

http://cindydrozda.blogspot.com/

Now that I am sharpening them properly, I love my 10V tools!
 
Nice to hear your evaluation of alloys, but there are other factors involved which are at least as important. Foremost is presentation. We all know that we can pull a finger across a razor edge with no harm, but pulling it along would be a bad choice. If we allow the wood to slice itself along the edge, the edge will remain suitable far longer than if we push the edge through the wood. How brittle an alloy is makes a huge difference in this regard as well, because the acute edge, unsupported in the of the angle of presentation, is more vulnerable to breaking off or bending. Here the form of the tool plays a great role as well. If you can't get one to present for a slice, pick another tool or grind which will. Brittle tools require a larger sharpness angle to hold an edge properly.

Second is time expended to obtain a useful edge. Abrasion resistance is also resistance to removal of metal to renew an edge. You must choose an appropriate abrasive in both composition and grit to accomplish your purpose, as you mention. If you're using 80, you can certainly take away more metal than is necessary to simply sharpen than users of 100 or 120 would take. A lot of turners use those coarse grits to save time, but leave a rough edge, which, if presented improperly can lead to even more frequent sharpenings. A less "wear-resistant" alloy would respond quickly to a fine grit pass or even honing. Higher cost in shorter edge life compounds higher initial cost.

You mention the composition of the wheels as well, but neglected one type altogether. Fortunately for the average turner, CBN or diamond wheels are not necessary. SiC wheels are out there at a fraction of the cost, and will sharpen any of the alloys. Then there are those fools like yours truly who hate sanding so much they will actually take a quick pass at the wheel prior to the final cuts. http://www.gulfcoastwoodturners.org/RESOURCES/Tool Steels/Tool Steels in Woodturning.ppt.pdf Slide 14 covers us. No point at all in a fancy alloy for us.
 
Thanks for the review, Cindy.......

Loved your "Elegant Finials" video! :D

Thanks for your insight on steels, and sharpening in your blog.

If I understand you correctly, the only real advantage to the V10 and the various other steels harder than M2 steel, is the ability to hold an edge longer.....is that correct? The degree of sharpness obtainable is equal?

I'm not experienced with v10 at all.....but, I do have a couple of 2060 tools. (I do have one powdered metal gouge that I have yet to use much.....Hamlet, I think. Maybe that one is v10?) Everything else in current use is all M2. I'm pretty happy with things as they are, and I'm getting good resulting high quality cuts on wood. I am, however, getting tons of experience sharpening tools! I don't consider this a bad thing. I'm using 80g Norton SG wheels and honing with 600gt diamond hones.

Tell me though.......isn't it a bit more difficult to sharpen the v10 steel, since it's probably much harder than M2? Although I wouldn't know from experience with v10, it seems like it could be a disadvantage......since M2 is so easily, and quickly sharpened. I can re-sharpen, hone, and be back in business in only a couple minutes......maybe even less. Like I say, I wouldn't know, but it seems like you might be able to true up an edge several times in the same amount of effort and time it takes to true up an edge on a tool with much harder steel, like the v10........?

ooc

edit: The 2060 tools are Hamlet, and the powdered metal gouge is a Crown Pro-PM......it doesn't say what kind of steel is used, but is powdered metal.
 
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Yes you need to take a few extra passes on the grinder I have pinnacle cryogenic line and I think a good M2 is just as good or even better cause it takes less time as the grinder. I do not think they hold a edge 3 times longer than M2 as they claim. I think they are just as good as M2 steel . I'm always running wood that tears up tool edges and I gave these a shot not bad But I will
go with Robert Sorby next time.
 
The durability, as near as I can tell means that you can hog off a lot more wood with the V!0 before you set off the smoke alarm than you can with M2. I do prefer a fresh edge for the final cut, no matter which steel I am using. If you have the CBN wheels, there is no added time to sharpening.

robo hippy
 
I use Thompson 10V and I find that I have to grind less than I did with M2 steel. With the 10V I make one quick pass with the tool in the Wolverine jig and I'm right back to work. I was always making multiple passes with the M2 steel. Perhaps I've just gotten a lot better at sharpening. My point being that 10V can be no harder to sharpen than M2.
Bill
 
Odie, Crown Pro-PM is M4, I believe.

I don’t feel like the 10V gives a superior edge initially. It just lasts a lot longer. Most especially with negative-rake scrapers. Huge noticeable difference there.

In my experience, sharpening with 3X or CBN, the 10V tool takes exactly the same amount of time to sharpen as the same M2 tool. No extra passes for me. The big difference being that sharpening is done less often.

Like Bill said: 10V is no harder to sharpen than M2. (at least in my experience)

Like Reed says, I also like a fresh edge for the final pass, regardless of what kind of steel I am using.

CD
 
Perhaps I’m missing something. All this discussion on the time it takes to sharpen is confusing. Once an acceptable (to me) edge has been ground, maintaining that edge takes under a minute- usually under 30 seconds to obtain a fresh edge. If the edge is nicked, that is a different story but it is rarely the case.

Granted, I’ve spent my share of time at the wheel developing acceptable techniques. I use a Wolverine system and a set of Raptor jigs to set my angles. Now, sharpening is a small part of a process. I have a CBN wheel (that is truly amazing) and a regular white wheel. Even for those who are production turners (I am not) I have trouble believing a few seconds sharpening seriously detracts from the overall creation process.

I too find the V10 steel will hold an edge longer, but again, for most turning I find any of the steels work pretty well for the type of turning I do on my Nova DVR. Which is your fault Cindy- you got me hooked on finial boxes!

Just my 2cents.
DickHob
 
Any other edges you consider "sharp" fresh from an 80 grit grinder?

Lawnmower, perhaps, but nothing else in the shop. Point was that we go coarse and settle for a second-rate (or less) edge because we can't hone those abrasion-resistant alloys easily. Most of the damage we call dull could be cleared on a 220 or finer stone if the alloy wasn't so resistant. Take away a third of the metal, get an edge that, while still unacceptable anywhere else in the shop, would look lots nicer under a microscope. Those who still have carbon steel around hone several times before they grind.

One of life's many compromises.
 
CindyDrozda said:
Odie, Crown Pro-PM is M4, I believe.

I don’t feel like the 10V gives a superior edge initially. It just lasts a lot longer. Most especially with negative-rake scrapers. Huge noticeable difference there.

In my experience, sharpening with 3X or CBN, the 10V tool takes exactly the same amount of time to sharpen as the same M2 tool. No extra passes for me. The big difference being that sharpening is done less often.

Like Bill said: 10V is no harder to sharpen than M2. (at least in my experience)

Like Reed says, I also like a fresh edge for the final pass, regardless of what kind of steel I am using.

CD
Click to expand...

Thanks Cindy.......

So, I take the whole point to be the difference in time it takes to re-sharpen v10 once ....vs.... M2 twice or maybe three times......?

This seems pretty insignificant to me, since we are talking only a few minutes of total time.

Don't take that statement wrong......not intended to establish a superior way to choose steels, sharpen, or lathe techniques. I'll have to reiterate that I'm feeling very comfortable using M2 steel, even if that means I'll have to take a few more time-outs for re-sharpening.

Agreed that all final passes need a fresh edge......

ooc

dickhob said:
Perhaps I’m missing something. All this discussion on the time it takes to sharpen is confusing. Once an acceptable (to me) edge has been ground, maintaining that edge takes under a minute- usually under 30 seconds to obtain a fresh edge. If the edge is nicked, that is a different story but it is rarely the case.

Granted, I’ve spent my share of time at the wheel developing acceptable techniques. I use a Wolverine system and a set of Raptor jigs to set my angles. Now, sharpening is a small part of a process. I have a CBN wheel (that is truly amazing) and a regular white wheel. Even for those who are production turners (I am not) I have trouble believing a few seconds sharpening seriously detracts from the overall creation process.

I too find the V10 steel will hold an edge longer, but again, for most turning I find any of the steels work pretty well for the type of turning I do on my Nova DVR. Which is your fault Cindy- you got me hooked on finial boxes!

Just my 2cents.
DickHob
Click to expand...

I think you are visualizing the input on this thread very similarly to my take on it, dickhob.......

When I spoke of re-sharpening above, I was considering a trip back to the grinding wheel, as well as re-honing......all only a couple of minutes total time. When only re-honing is necessary, the time will be much abbreviated further.......only seconds, in that case.

As previously stated, I've not tried the v10 steel......but, I'm feeling a bit skeptical about the overall worthiness of purchasing any, since it doesn't seem like there is going to be that much savings of time.

Most of us (I do, anyway! :D) take our time and inspect, evaluate, and contemplate our turning progress, on each and every turning. Since I'm starting, stopping, and pondering frequently anyway........it just doesn't seem like a savings of a few minutes time is all that important an issue. (Of course, I only speak for myself........I fully realize that others may not assess all of the particulars the same as I would, or do.)

ooc
 
Odie,
You might want to just get a V10 and give it a try. Both Thompson and D-Way have very nice tools and not too pricey.

Try it, you'll like it!
DickHob
 
I'm still very new with the CBN wheel, just got it yesterday. Stay tuned because I now have all 4 of the most popular sharpening systems, a slow speed grinder with 100 grit white wheels, a strip sander which I will play with the grit but for now has 120 grit, a Tormek wet wheel grinder and a 180 grit CBN wheel.
I am a long time user of the Thompson particle metal tools. I don't find them any harder to sharpen on my white wheels than other tools. A single pass usually does it. They get sharp enough that i can usually start with 220 grit if I do my job correctly.
that's where I agree with MM. Tool presentation, how acute the actual sharpened edge is, and whether or not you force the cut seem to be as or more important than the sharpeness of the edge.
I will no more in a month or so after I have experience with these machines. However I did a quick test the other day and found that the actual difference in the finish left on the wood is pretty minimal. Maybe one grit of sandpaper but I'm sure that depends on one's skill level and the quality of the wood. I only used 1 for this quick exercise.
I am very impressed with the new CBN wheel. It does sharpen to a keen edge but then it's 180 grit vs my white wheel 100 grit so that's expected. It will be fun to run it against the Tormek 1000 grit wheel or belt sander 800 grit. stay tuned for the pros and cons of those.
As far as edge holding capability. It's a little thing and hard to lay your hands on it. I sharpen frequently because I love sharp tools so I can't say it may save trips to the grinder. Heck I need the break anyway to let my back relax from longer turning sessions. Since really sharp edge holding capabilities is such a subtle and subjective thing It's hard to say one is better than another. However when it comes to hogging wood off of bowls to get ready for the final cut the Thompsons just keep on cutting.
Now this is probably a less than sharp edge but plenty sharp enough to keep on going. I didn't realize how much until I had to turn a bunch of 8" aluminum discs for a glass artist. I would have to sharpen my HSS tools once per disc and then I was pushing the tool near the end. I turned 3 or 4 complete discs with the Thompson before it got that hard. Aluminum is really hard on a tool edge.
 
I do think most of us tend to over sharpen. I guess it is the grinding vs sharpening thing. One simple pass is all it should take, but most of us have to hit it again, just to make sure. The biggest time saver in sharpening I have learned is to free hand sharpen. Just think about never having to use a gouge jig ever again........

robo hippy
 
Was thinking of this thread at work the other day, and this thought occurred to me:

(For the sake of discussion, let's just say that from sharp to dull on a scale of 1 to 10, a ten being sharp.....)

If it is true that regardless of tool steel, all steels are capable of an equivalent degree of sharpness.......and if it takes M2 steel 1/3 the amount of cutting to go from a 10 to a 5 level of sharpness than the v10 steel......then during that period of use, and since two subsequent resharpenings has occurred.......in effect, what has happened is you now have three times when absolute sharpness has been used with the M2, as opposed to only one time with the v10. I'm wondering how that may effect the progress of removing wood, in the total effort, and if that progress may be different, or viewed as different from one turner, to the next?

Keep in mind that all steels, no matter to what degree of sharpness a turner's abilities can attain, does begin to dull the instant they commence to be used.

Hmmmmmmm!

Considering that, I am wondering if there is a universal point of greatest usefulness for a particular grade of steel used in turning tools, with regard to the degree of edge holding abilities, and generic to the full spectrum of steels used for turning tools.......?.........:confused:

If there is an optimal point of hardness, or edge holding ability.......it might be M2, and it might be v10, or something else in between. It also may be that one turner may find that optimal performance at a different level of hardness than another turner. In that case, it may all boil down to one's personal style, the woods and materials he is using, and maybe even attitude and personality might conceivably contribute to how one individual may assess the performance.......

In the final analysis, there is only one measurement of how good the steel in one turner's hands is.......and that is universally the fineness of the surface that is, or can be had........:D

ooc
 
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John
Since you're new to the CBN wheel I'm sure you've noticed how much longer it takes to wind down after turning off. I get almost a full five minutes on my cheapo Woodcraft slow speed grinder. That means you have a flywheel on your grinder that will never need balancing or truing.

Try this- get the grinder up to speed and REST the back of a chisel (not the cutting edge) on the TOP of the CBN wheel- not too long, you don't want to put a serious ding in the back. I think you'll find there is no "bounce". Take off your guard and try that on another wheel.

This wheel will NEVER wear out, get smaller, be out of round or balance. It is 1/2in wider than a regular wheel. This means you'll get the best edge possible regardless of the steel in the tool.

I'm not trying to hijack the thread, but the quality of the edge is a major factor, and I think for most woods, the sharpening method perhaps is more critical than the steel for everything after the initial roughing.
 
Personally, I have several gouges that I just swap out so I don't have to divert my attention from turning to grinding. That is the important part, don't slow down the "creative process" momentum. You can use one tool and sharpen it on a gray wheel. But every time you go to sharpen, you change mental planes. Turn, sharpen, turn, sharpen, etc. If you use a higher grade steel, you sharpen less. Each one is a little less from M2 to M4 to V10 (2030 and 2060 are in the M4-V10 area). The better steel takes longer to go from 10-5 than a lesser grade. With a negative rake scraper, the edge life is very short, so the investment in the steel is really worth it. The better wheels just sharpen faster and wear less. CBN wheels don't need to get balanced, don't need to be trued or lessen in circumference. Yep, more expensive that 2 good blue wheels. You have to decide where to spend your money. I got tired of the whole thing, went to a Baldor and CBN wheels. Costs as mush as some lathes, but the investment is worth it for me.
 
I wasn't going to say anything but Odie brought up one of the all steel are equal statements that I'm not comfortable with. "All" steels can be made "sharp" but I don't carry a SS pocket knife becasue the don't get as sharpe as CV the molecular structure of the steel doesn't allow it. Same with Carbide there is a huge difference between grades of carbide they all get "sharp" but they are not the same. I don't personally think that if you grind and hone your M2 you will find a real benefit in 10v or 2030 or 2060 or v15. I use Doug's tools because I do...but I also use a Buck Bros. scaper I don't think is even M2..it works and you can't have it. I want a sharp tool, so you have to sharpen it. I don't like to sharpen very much so I have two tools of most of the ones I like, I'm lazy. I have or tried most of the sharpening systems, but I keep using a jig and I love my CBN wheels. But do I recommend them to folks I teach. Nope. They are expensive and I don't think they are necessary to get a sharp tool or a clean cut. I don't recommend Buck Bros either, but I use them. It all comes done to what you want to use..You can make a case for most anything, especally if you aren't going to change anyway. ;-)
 
DOCworks said:
I wasn't going to say anything but Odie brought up one of the all steel are equal statements that I'm not comfortable with. "All" steels can be made "sharp" but I don't carry a SS pocket knife becasue the don't get as sharpe as CV the molecular structure of the steel doesn't allow it. Same with Carbide there is a huge difference between grades of carbide they all get "sharp" but they are not the same. I don't personally think that if you grind and hone your M2 you will find a real benefit in 10v or 2030 or 2060 or v15. I use Doug's tools because I do...but I also use a Buck Bros. scaper I don't think is even M2..it works and you can't have it. I want a sharp tool, so you have to sharpen it. I don't like to sharpen very much so I have two tools of most of the ones I like, I'm lazy. I have or tried most of the sharpening systems, but I keep using a jig and I love my CBN wheels. But do I recommend them to folks I teach. Nope. They are expensive and I don't think they are necessary to get a sharp tool or a clean cut. I don't recommend Buck Bros either, but I use them. It all comes done to what you want to use..You can make a case for most anything, especally if you aren't going to change anyway. ;-)
Click to expand...

Howdy Doc......

Here's what I said:

odie said:
If it is true that regardless of tool steel, all steels are capable of an equivalent degree of sharpness.......
Click to expand...

I really wouldn't know for sure, because I haven't experience with most steels used for turning tools, except M2. I didn't intend to indicate all steels within the complete spectrum of steels were the same when it comes to the ability to be sharpened. My statement above was given, because that's the common belief among the woodturning community, and I was only parroting that. I suppose I should have made some parameters to my statement, so that you weren't confused as to my meaning.

Would it have been more correct to precede the statement above with the words: "Of those steels in common use for currently produced turning tools, if it is true that all of them are capable of an equivalent degree of sharpness.......(and, etc.)", ......would that have been a more acceptable statement to you?

.....Just wondering if we can get a clarification of your thoughts, as they relate to my statement.

thanks

ooc
 
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DOCworks said:
I wasn't going to say anything but Odie brought up one of the all steel are equal statements that I'm not comfortable with. "All" steels can be made "sharp" but I don't carry a SS pocket knife becasue the don't get as sharpe as CV the molecular structure of the steel doesn't allow it. ........
Click to expand...

I agree with much of what you said (but I suspect that you slightly misinterpreted what Odie was saying), but as you know, there are also many different kinds of stainless steel including apparently at least one that is excellent for sharp knives with excellent edge holding properties. I have not seen many pocket knives that have SS blades, but I have one that I got almost a half century ago that holds its own in long lasting edge sharpness and toughness compared to any other blade that I have used. I still remember the price because it was outrageously expensive for the time ($25) when a very good pocket knife would cost around $5. I have no idea what type of SS it might be. As far as all of the other SS blades that I have seen, I would have to agree with you since their only claim to fame seems to be not rusting.
 
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DOCworks said:
"All" steels can be made "sharp" but I don't carry a SS pocket knife becasue the don't get as sharpe as CV the molecular structure of the steel doesn't allow it.
Click to expand...

Some of the "newer" steels, like AEB-L, properly hardened, will make you change your tune. Ultra-small carbides, just like carbon steel, although size isn't everything.......:)
 
Cindy:
I find this an interesting topic as I have several PM woodturning tools. I have the Hamlet 2060 and the Glasser V10 and V 15 tools along with an assortment of M2 tools. I turn a lot of epoxy resin and combinations of wood or bamboo and epoxy resin. Epoxy resin is about 10 times harder than most common woods and as such dulls tools faster. That is why I chose to go with these expensive tools. The question is: are they worth the price? For me the answer is no question. The 2060 and V10 were my first PM tools and are clearly better than M2 when turning epoxy. Them I tried a carbide disk cutter that cost about $20. It work well in cutting epoxy but after turning one piece it was dull. Since I didn’t have a way to sharpen it and being to expensive to replace I abandoned pure carbide. Last year I started turning a large bamboo/epoxy piece and found that neither of my 2060 or V10 would stay sharp long enough to finish this piece in a reasonable time. I went to Paulo Marin who makes the Glasser tools (located in Camarillo where I live) and got a V 15. This tool is clearly superior and stays sharp longer than the V 10 of 2060 steels. When I used it to turn the Bamboo/epoxy piece I was able to turn for several minutes before having to re-sharpen. I sharpen with a Tormak and get a sharp tool. I have not thought of using diamond, but will start using my diamond hone to finish the sharpening process.
 
There is another steel, Tangung, and it is available through A G Wesson down in Florida. It is a cast metal. It has been used by the Oregon Coast myrtle wood turners for so long, no one knows who first thought of using it. It is cast, and a 6 inch long 1 inch wide by 1/8 inch thick piece costs about $60. Generally, you score the stick, and break it in half for 2 pieces 3 inches long. It is used like standard scrapers, and was known as the Big Ugly tool. Traditional version was a 30 or so long piece of 3/4 square inch bar stock with a piece of tantung on each end. One end was more ( shaped, and the other end was more finger nail shaped. You would wear a thick leather glove on the handle end. In hardness, it is just under carbide. You can get a great edge from standard grinding wheels, which you can't do with the carbide insert cutters. It is silver soldered onto bar stock. I need to get back to them and see of they can make cutters for all the carbide tipped tools out there. I am not sure if it would make a good production tool as it has always been a DIY tool.

robo hippy
 
Well how long a tool stays "sharp" is a very touchy subject. Lets face it we all push the tools to a certain point. We know it won't be as sharp in 10 minutes as it is when we take it off the stone. We reach some point where we decide it needs to be resharpened. That of course varies with experience and probably even your temperament for the day. And there's now doubt that they cut better right off the wheel.
It's hard for me to say if one tool really lasts much longer than another when cutting wood. However when I had to turn a bunch of Aluminum discs for a glass artist I would have to sharpen twice per disc with my HSS tolls and I cut 4 full discs with the Thompson bowl gouge before I had to sharpen.
consequently when roughing out bowls I get a lot of mileage between sharpenings with the Thompson. When finishing bowls not so much because I want the really sharp edge and I stop frequently to get it. maybe more than necessary but it does cut down on sanding. I will be interested to see if the sharper edge that comes off 180 grit CBN or 1000 grit Tormek will last any longer. An article in Woodturning years ago says it will but I guess I'll see.
 
Bill Boehme said:
Tantung isn't a steel.
Click to expand...

So, not being an engineer, I had to look it up. Tantung is a cast alloy cutting tool material composed principally of chromium, tungsten, columbium, and carbon in a cobalt matrix. I also learned the official international name for columbium was changed to niobium in 1949, but columbium is still used in the US, and that the majority of the world's niobium is mined in Brazil. The wonders of Wikipedia.
 
john lucas said:
Well how long a tool stays "sharp" is a very touchy subject.......
Click to expand...

You are absolutely right. There are so many variables, many of which are unquantifiable, that it really is not possible to say that there is one and only one perfect tool material -- that is, until somebody discovers the element "unobtanium".

John Lawson said:
So, not being an engineer, I had to look it up. Tantung is a cast alloy cutting tool material composed principally of chromium, tungsten, columbium, and carbon in a cobalt matrix. I also learned the official international name for columbium was changed to niobium in 1949, but columbium is still used in the US, and that the majority of the world's niobium is mined in Brazil. The wonders of Wikipedia.
Click to expand...

That is interesting about Columbium. My guess is that the name that gets used might be somewhat industry dependent. The name that I have heard used is mostly Niobium and mostly in connection with superconducting supermagnets.

Tungsten is a very interesting metal. for a while, I had a piece of tungsten on my desk at work. It is almost twice as heavy as lead. The piece of tungsten was used for thrust vector control of the engine of a Scout launch vehicle. Rather than swiveling the nozzle of the rocket engine, the tungsten fins which sat inside the nozzle were used to vector the thrust. Any other metal would have quickly melted in that extreme temperature, but tungsten only gets tougher the hotter it gets. But very interestingly, at room temperature, tungsten is brittle and high shock loads can shatter it. That is what happened to this piece of tungsten -- someone dropped it onto a concrete floor and it broke into two pieces as though it were ceramic.

There are some other metals similar to Tantung, but I know nothing about how they compare. Of course, each manufacturer claims that their concoction is the best.
 
@ John thank you I needed a good laugh.

Odie,
I didn't mean any disrespect; I think everyone should be free to use whatever makes them happy. I am a bit sensitive on steel and sharpness coming from a furniture back ground...meaning I still have to endure the ministering of the hand plane crowd about the microscopic edge they require to get a clean cut. Boring...but it is a bit interesting to a point. The thing is a hand plane cuts maybe, and I mean maybe a hundred board feet before it is re-sharpened, some of these guys go up above the 10,000 grit to get their plane blades "scary sharp", ok, but my lathe tool does 100 board feet before I get the back of the bowl done, probably before I get the bark off. I think sharpening is one of the most important techniques you need to learn when working with wood, lathe or otherwise, but we also like to turn at some point. So find that point that best meets your needs between getting a sharp edge and durability and still finding time to make shavings.
Also some of us are just plain stubborn so I'm not changing from a Case 6225 1/2 CV pocket knife that I've had since highschool to any new fangled SS blade because they will never be as good...so there. That's my mature side coming out.
 
Bill Boehme said:
...Tungsten is a very interesting metal...
Click to expand...

Interesting you should bring up tungsten. Apparently the European name niobium was adopted for columbium as part of a compromise that also made the American name tungsten official instead of of the European wolfram.
 
DOCworks said:
@ John thank you I needed a good laugh.

Odie,
I didn't mean any disrespect; I think everyone should be free to use whatever makes them happy. I am a bit sensitive on steel and sharpness coming from a furniture back ground...meaning I still have to endure the ministering of the hand plane crowd about the microscopic edge they require to get a clean cut. Boring...but it is a bit interesting to a point. The thing is a hand plane cuts maybe, and I mean maybe a hundred board feet before it is re-sharpened, some of these guys go up above the 10,000 grit to get their plane blades "scary sharp", ok, but my lathe tool does 100 board feet before I get the back of the bowl done, probably before I get the bark off. I think sharpening is one of the most important techniques you need to learn when working with wood, lathe or otherwise, but we also like to turn at some point. So find that point that best meets your needs between getting a sharp edge and durability and still finding time to make shavings.
Also some of us are just plain stubborn so I'm not changing from a Case 6225 1/2 CV pocket knife that I've had since highschool to any new fangled SS blade because they will never be as good...so there. That's my mature side coming out.
Click to expand...

Howdy Doc........

Thanks for the come-back. Ya......you're absolutely right about everyone finding their own ways to sharpen, and the techniques they use to get there may not be the same between any two individuals. Getting the sharp edge itself isn't the only object.....but, one's own evolving skills and techniques for arriving there is just as important.

I'm a bit resistant to change from M2, mainly because I have been using it for so long that I've honed my skills to a point where I'm feeling very comfortable in my methods and techniques. I hone a half dozen times between grinding, and this only takes seconds of time to re-new the edge.......but, I've had lots of practice! Just because I have a certain confidence level in my own techniques, doesn't mean others can't arrive at an equal degree of performance with entirely different methods.......

ooc
 
I have a certain confidence level in my own techniques, doesn't mean others can't arrive at an equal degree of performance with entirely different methods.......

ooc[/QUOTE]


Odie I made a statement like that once and was told I'd make a good politician. :)
 
john lucas said:
I have a certain confidence level in my own techniques, doesn't mean others can't arrive at an equal degree of performance with entirely different methods.......

Odie I made a statement like that once and was told I'd make a good politician. :)

ooc
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:D

Heh,heh,heh.......you might be a good one, John. I know darned well I wouldn't be a very good politician. I have the moral code, ethics, and values system of my parents, and although I consider that a good thing......I just haven't evolved with the society America has, or seems to have become. Most people these days would think of me as too old fashioned.........:eek:

ooc
 
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Bill Boehme said:
A wise old philosopher once said,"things ain't what they used to be and, furthermore they never wuz".
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Bill.......That's cute, but what "wise old philosopher" do you speak of?......or, did you make that up?

In a limited way, I suppose that philosopher is right, because it's easy to look back on times past through rose-colored glasses, while ignoring that the heart and soul of humanity always did, and always will have an element of dishonest, and dishonorable behavior.

This is not to disregard that the heart and soul of humanity, from the perspective of many observers, is on the decline. For those of us who recognize traditional ethics, a code of honor, and believe strongly in these things........it's very easy to see that our social fabric is, and has been evolving over a long period of time......Many of us see this as a change, or shift in a basic national character not for the better.

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M42 tool steel

So is there any advantage to M42 steel? I've not seen it mentioned. With only 1.20% vanadium carbides it's not nearly as hard as 15V (14.50%), but it does have nearly twice the moly (9.50% as well as 8.00% cobalt and 0.45% silicon) of M2 (moly 5.00% Cr 4.15%).

I know M2 has pretty much become the standard HS steel for several reasons; (1) it works well in a variety of demanding cutting industries, and (2) economy, perhaps being #1.

With that in mind I see one tool maker marketing M42 tools. They appear to be nice tools and the price is competitive. Is this a marketing strategy or tooling advantage?
 
My observations about the advantages of M2 turning tools over the same tool in 10V is:

1 - Economy (well, sometimes) (and, well, maybe)

2 - Sharpening them properly. Powder metal tools, with their carbide (tungsten or vanadium) content, don't get properly sharpened unless the material used for grinding/sharpening is harder than the carbides. That means CBN (seems to work best), diamond, or ceramic (not as effective in my experience, but better than aluminum oxide). If the turner is sharpening with Aluminum Oxide wheels (the "white" or "pink" ones, OneWay wheels, etc), then I would use M2.

Maybe #2 is a part of #1 (economy), since the CBN and diamond wheels are more expensive.

But if 10V stays sharp longer, and is sharpened with a CBN wheel that takes off less metal each time, maybe the 10V ends up being more economical.

And if the CBN wheels last longer than a wheel that wears down over time, maybe it is also more economical. Remains to be seen on that one. CBN wheels haven't been around long enough to really know.
 
I don't know. I've been using the thompson V11 gouges for many years now and sharpened them on my 100 grit white wheel and they seem to get just as sharp as the two bowl gouges I have that are high speed steel. One is Henry Taylor and the other is a no name. I don't think either one is M42.
I am now playing with 2 different sharpening systems. A 1" belt sander with 320 grit and the 180 CBN. Both leave better edges than my white wheel but then they are finer grit. I haven't noticed a difference in sharpeness between the HSS and the Thompsons on these either. Maybe I'll try to figure out some sort of experiment to see if I can prove it one way or the other.
 
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