Underwhelmed

[Bill Alston]

I made this tool quite some time ago. I was going to say I don’t know why but that’s not true. I made it to see how this particular insert would work, in comparison to commercial tools with the same shape insert. It was sold (I bought a pair for not a lot of money) as a Diamond coated insert. I think it’s actually more likely to be Cubic Boron Nitride though from what I’ve seen on the net? it works well enough for making grooves I suppose and trimming stuff in tight places, but really no better than an earlier HSS tool I made. The only advantage I suppose is that it likely won’t ever need to be replaced - unless I drop it, as I can’t see it getting blunt anytime soon?

 

[Odie]

The only advantage I suppose is that it likely won’t ever need to be replaced - unless I drop it, as I can’t see it getting blunt anytime soon?

The allure of having a tool that never needs sharpening is a very tantalizing thought......but, it's all just an elusive dream.

All tools will dull with use, and even carbide tools begin that process the minute you start using it. As I see it, the problem with carbide cutters, along with many of the exotic steels, is most of them dull at such a slow rate, that it becomes much more difficult to make the decision when to replace carbide tips....or, resharpen exotic steels.

I know a lot of turners swear by their exotic steels and carbide cutters. Since they are much more expensive, those who use them have a difficult time coming to grips with the notion that regular ol' plain Jane M2 and a few other HSS tools have some benefits to using them that are eliminated by many of the exotics and carbide.....and, no longer are a part of a useful equation for determining when to sharpen. A better/cleaner cut can be accomplished by using steels that need sharpening more often. Sharpening more often is the key to having a cutting edge that is as sharp as it realistically can be.....ALL THE TIME.

The one and only drawback is you have to sharpen more often.....much more often......but, the good news is sharpening more often is the pathway to refining your sharpening skills. That as well translates to sharpening much faster and better.

Of course, everyone can choose whatever tools they wish.....but, when a new turner gets sucked into the allure of having to sharpen less by purchasing carbide cutters and exotic steels.....they never really have a chance to learn just how well they can keep a very refined cutting edge all the time on steels that seem "so outdated" to new turners.

=o=

 

[Steve Tiedman]

I would not disagree with any of that, Odie.

 

[Bill Blasic]

Odie I'm not disagreeing with you, sharpening is important. But if I can take a Thompson 10 V tool and cut 4 or 5 times as long as a M2 tool and sharpening that tool with Vector Grind Fixture only takes off thousands to sharpen that tool is going to last for years. My first 10 V tool I used for 6 years grinding on a white wheel before getting a CBN wheel and I had used less than an inch of that tool which was my every day go to tool. And as far as Hunter carbides go my first Hunter carbide tool which I use a lot and have used if for over 8 years now and I've only changed the insert once. I won't name that tool as Hunter does not make it any more. I love to turn but I have to sharpen. So why not use tools that keep me at the lathe removing wood instead of running to the grinder every two minutes. May be more expensive to start but cheaper in the long run. Like I always say "Buy your last lathe first."

 

[Doug Freeman]

Agree with you @Odie. There is one application where “exotic” steel, and Thompson 10V is probably the best, makes a lot of sense - roughing blanks, particularly with bark on. I do a lot of this - I use a chainsaw (no bandsaw) to create blanks and leave the bark on, natural edge or flat rim. The 10V holds a “good enough” edge a lot longer than m2 or even m42 during this initial stage getting through bark etc.

Having some tear out while roughing in is no big deal, it gets cut out out in final shaping, with a freshly sharpened edge. For me it translates to one “exotic steel” tool for this roughing stage, a 5/8” shaft Jamieson/Thompson bowl gouge. M2 tools, resharpened as needed, work just fine for everything else.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

FWIW, I have found Crown gouges with M42 steel to be much more durable than my Thompson gouge. If I'm buying a new gouge, it's going to be a Crown. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Kevin Jenness]

I am not a student of metallurgy or microphotography or a master turner like some, but it seems to me that I get as keen and functional an edge with my 10V tools as with M2. Do I continue to use them when they are dull because someone told me the edge lasts forever? Of course not, because I go by the same criteria for sharpening them as I do with any edge tool. When the tool stops performing as well, requires more force to make a cut or is visibly dull, it gets sharpened. Longer intervals between sharpening don't dull my senses.

 

[Steve Tiedman]

I think some of Odie's point is getting missed. Re-read his last paragraph about new(er) turners, his overall message will make better sense.

 

[Kevin Jenness]

Odie has written in the past "Yes, that's what I believe is correct about the exotic steels.....they are capable of every bit as sharp of a cutting edge as any of the more common HSS turning tools. The only difference is their enhanced ability to hold an edge is much greater." He believes that using a faster wearing tool encourages a greater awareness of when the tool is dull and forces one to sharpen far more often and therefore work with a sharper tool. Taking Odie's theory to its logical conclusion we should be using high carbon steel tools and sharpening every thirty seconds. I don't buy it. If the V10 can take as sharp an edge then as long as one sharpens the tool when dull equal performance will be achieved with less time at the grinder or with a hone. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Odie, have you ever actually used any 10v or M42 tools?

 

[robo hippy]

Our club is starting to assemble a "tool Library". I donated a Glenn Lucas signature gouge. I am starting to get rid of stuff I don't use. The reason I got rid of it is it was a reminder of how fast the standard M2 gouges dull. There is a HUGE difference. I have been using the M42 and V 10 for years now, and don't use anything else other than the Big Ugly tool which has a tantung insert on top, and some of my hollowing tools and my coring blades have been retipped with the tantung. Oh, Glenn did go with M42 on his signature gouges. If you are "sharpening" your tools will last a very long time. If you are "grinding" your tools will wear out a LOT faster. You can get almost the same "fineness" of your cutting edge on just about any metal. Some just take more work than others.

robo hippy

 

[hockenbery]

Sharpening is an important skill and as @Odie points out
HSS can be used effectively. I still use many HSS tools and one carbon steel tool.

But I would not want to limit myself to those tools.

My favorite bowl gouge is the Jaimieson gouge made by thompson.
I also have discovered that the Hunter carbides make superior surfaces on some forms and woods.

 

[Steve Tiedman]

when a new turner gets sucked into the allure of having to sharpen less by purchasing carbide cutters and exotic steels.....they never really have a chance to learn just how well they can keep a very refined cutting edge all the time on steels that seem "so outdated" to new turners.

@Kevin Jenness, I agree with the concept he wrote, regarding the learned skill set of a new turner in their ability to, oh, call it muscle memory for the lack of anything better, recognize and realize a proper sharp edge, a still-functional yet dulling edge, and a dull edge. And repeat, and repeat... Let the "old-fashioned" M2 HSS be the teacher, like repeating your arithmetic tables over and over until they are memorized. Cut for 5 or 10 minutes, then sharpen. Cut for 5-10 minutes, then sharpen. Over and over, project after project. The new turner will stick with those tools until the time comes to replace, out of need or desire. Then they can benefit from longer-wearing steels, but will also have that innate ability to simply know that a tool, any tool of any steel, is dulling and that it is time to sharpen. I think this is a rational, logical part of the learning process.

Re-reading @Odie's entire message, there is a lot of sense being made there that I agree with fully.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

Of course Bill is underwhelmed by that tool. Very likely that insert is quite expensive and meant for "hard turning". It doesn't have the correct geometry for wood turning. If Bill is lucky there may be a high positive insert well suited for wood turning that'll be an exact fit for his holder.

This discussion has turned into a debate about the practical usefulness of exotic tool steels which doesn't apply to the insert in question.

For those who don't know hard turning usually refers to the machining of items that might be made of hardened HSS on ultra rigid machine tools. My first exposure to hard turning was a company in LA that salvaged expensive large diameter milling cutters by hard turning the shanks down so they could be used in machine tools that couldn't use cutters with large diameter shanks. Prior to hard turning shanks could be reduced by much more expensive grinding.

On edit, I bet the majority of mass production turnings are still done with plain HSS or even carbon steel cutters designed for extreme shear cutting. Google on Mattison lathes which aren't really even lathes in the sense turning is defined by the AAW.

 

[Odie]

Odie has written in the past "Yes, that's what I believe is correct about the exotic steels.....they are capable of every bit as sharp of a cutting edge as any of the more common HSS turning tools. The only difference is their enhanced ability to hold an edge is much greater." He believes that using a faster wearing tool encourages a greater awareness of when the tool is dull and forces one to sharpen far more often and therefore work with a sharper tool. Taking Odie's theory to its logical conclusion we should be using high carbon steel tools and sharpening every thirty seconds. I don't buy it. If the V10 can take as sharp an edge then as long as one sharpens the tool when dull equal performance will be achieved with less time at the grinder or with a hone. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Odie, have you ever actually used any 10v or M42 tools?

Howdy Kevin......

I have used a few exotic steels in the past.

Yes, you are correct about my belief concerning how the dulling effect of tool steel regulates the internal awareness of how well the tool is cutting. When it starts to dull, and depending on what kind of wood is being turned, it's very easy to go beyond that point where it should have been sharpened. This point cannot be felt through your physical senses, and if you use a tool for longer than you should, the quality of the cut will suffer. Once you have tearout, you then have only two choices......remove more material to eliminate tearout or any other bad cuts......or, aggressive sanding.

Your use of "logic" fails you, as you seem to have missed my previous statements that the evolving of carbon steel tools to m2 HSS was a tremendous leap of benefits to the lathe turner.

I would imagine that you are not alone in your thinking that "you don't buy it". That's fine. It's not my intention to change anyone's mind on this.....and I realize that actually changing minds is nearly impossible for a good segment of those among us. By expressing my opinion, just maybe something might "click" for a few other readers, though.

=o=

 

[Tyler Lyght]

When it starts to dull, and depending on what kind of wood is being turned, it's very easy to go beyond that point where it should have been sharpened. This point cannot be felt through your physical senses, and if you use a tool for longer than you should, the quality of the cut will suffer. Once you have tearout, you then have only two choices......remove more material to eliminate bad cuts......or, aggressive sanding.


=o=

Howdy Odie. Hopefully that didn't come off as mocking; I'm from Montana as well after all =P

I'm new to all aspects of turning, so please bear with my ignorance. If sharpness can't be felt through physical senses of someone who has turned for decades, there's no way someone green as spring grass will recognize it. In that same vein, with green folks, there are too many other variables to conclude tear-out is caused by any one thing - it's likely a combination of many factors. I figure the best thing one can do (apart from specific training, mentorship, etc, which isn't always available) is to reduce the variables as much as practical. To that end, my thought is the type of steel used is less important than the consistency of the type of steel used. By this I mean whatever internal clock or 6th (or 7th) sense you use to trigger sharpening can start training itself on tools that will lose their edge at a similar rate on the same wood.

Additionally, it would be better to sharpen more often than necessary that to sharpen less often than necessary, which can be more easily facilitated by steel that keeps an edge longer. If I'm getting tearout I don't understand, my first reaction regardless of the tool, unless it's been 'too long' (an arbitrary amount of time based on my nearly nonexistant experience) since I sharpened, isn't going to be to go straight to my sharpening station. It's going to be to check my stance, check the secureness of the tailstock, adjust the lathe RPM if necessary, Re-ABC, and slow down. Everything I'm doing is some level of 'needs improvement'; I've only really spent a couple of solid hours turning so far.

All that being said, if I can afford steel that holds an edge longer, does it really make sense to default to steel that dulls faster? All costs being equal, would you recommend new turners only use M2 considering they haven't developed any sharpening habits at all? If yes, is it more because they may default to sharpening too infrequently if they use steel that needs more sharpening? Currently, the most I will interact with other turners is at most once a month and I'm not sure there's a good reason not to bring my own tools in that case. I live in a town with maybe 3k people that's about 2 hours away from the closest turning club. I'm not likely to use anything other than my own tools almost ever.

 

[Odie]

If sharpness can't be felt through physical senses of someone who has turned for decades, there's no way someone green as spring grass will recognize it.

Tyler....

A developed sense of how sharp a tool is, can be determined by rubbing your finger over the edge. This would be a "physical sense", but I was talking about how the tool feels in your hands while turning on the lathe. The latter is an impossibility, while the former is a sense that can be developed. Also, the resistance of the wood species of the moment isn't a constant reliable indicator to be used for all woods and grain patterns.

Thanks for your taking the time to consider all these things. I guarantee that some of the questions you're contemplating now will be answered by ONLY you. You are the best source of weighing all the variables that pertain to you.

All that being said, if I can afford steel that holds an edge longer, does it really make sense to default to steel that dulls faster?

It certainly does for me, and I have explained why in previous statements.

All costs being equal, would you recommend new turners only use M2 considering they haven't developed any sharpening habits at all? If yes, is it more because they may default to sharpening too infrequently if they use steel that needs more sharpening?

Hello Tyler.....

Since you asked.....yes, I would.....

Yes, correct.....it's because they may sharpen too infrequently. Because of that, I opine that many new turners have no idea that sharpening procedures are the root cause of their problems.

Turners who can't achieve the perfect cut, almost always resort to aggressive sanding to eliminate the flaws. On cross-grain bowls, aggressive sanding ALWAYS results in removing more material from the long grain than it does from the end grain......and THAT mean a deterioration in "perfect geometry". Destroying the perfect geometry means you've lost control of the ability for the details to look refined and pristine.

As before, I expect there to be pushback on these views of mine because many of them are in conflict with the standard usual thinking of the day. All I'm doing is expressing my opinions, and these opinions have been formed over a period of 43 years of bowl turning. Everyone has the right to accept, reject, or chew on what I have to say here......thank you.

=o=

 

[Bill Alston]

Very likely that insert is quite expensive and meant for "hard turning".

As I mentioned in my OP, they weren’t expensive. I wouldn’t have bothered otherwise.

 

[Tyler Lyght]

As before, I expect there to be pushback on these views of mine because many of them are in conflict with the standard usual thinking of the day. All I'm doing is expressing my opinions, and these opinions have been formed over a period of 43 years of bowl turning. Everyone has the right to accept, reject, or chew on what I have to say here......thank you.

=o=

I may not agree with your conclusions, but I recognize I don't have the turning experience to back up my assumptions with relevant experience.

I learned a while back that nobody has their mind changed in forums. I have had my mind changed later after stewing on conversations, though. Until then, I'll do what you've suggested many times; walk my own path, or at least the path that makes the most sense to me at the time. =P.

I appreciate you taking the time.

 

[Steve Tiedman]

Here is an idea based in science, not opinion.

The next time any of us have a big chunk of wood, or several smaller of the same species, before you make a single cut, sharpen the tool you intend to cut with. Gouge, skew... doesn't matter. Then just before hitting the on button of the lathe, set a countdown timer on your phone. Or on an oven timer. Whatever. Set it for, oh, let's try 10 minutes. Ready, get set, GO! Turn continuously for 10 minutes. Don't stop. Same cut, over and over. Good cuts, bad cuts, just cut. 10 minutes goes by fast. And... ding-ding! Stop the lathe, go to the grinder, whether you think/know you need to or not, and sharpen the tool again exactly the same as last time. Reset the timer, and GO! 10 minutes later, re-sharpen. Repeat 3 or 4 or 5 times, the same way. Are you noticing anything about the cut quality after sharpening? Slight improvement? Major improvement. Do it again, and again, and again. Thompson tool, cheap crap tool, doesn't matter. Repeat, repeat, repeat.

Conclusions:
-10 minutes might be totally unnecessary for a high-end steel tool. (Experiment at 15 or 20 minute intervals as described above.)
-10 minutes of turning really does (maybe?) dull down a steel of a different alloy than M42 or other high alloy powder metals, and you just proved to yourself that frequent sharpening is a good thing.
- We ALL need to get over this idea that stepping over to the grinder, regardless of the steel, is somehow the negative part of woodturning. It is not. It IS PART of woodturning. Like other areas of life, it's not the tool, it's what you are able to do with it. So, chasing the next great tool, dropping $200 on it, all so you can save an accumulated... 10 minutes of time in a 4-6 hour turning session... so what! $75 for this tool, $200 for the same exotic metal tool... that's a lot of pizza money! An M2 gouge, a Varigrind jig, 3-4 quick swipes across a wheel inside of 30 seconds of time, and it's surgically sharp again. Get over it.
-Either way, we all have/had to learn in our early turning life to "listen" to what the wood and the tool and our hands and our senses are trying to tell our conscious minds. "I'm pushing hard. The wood is tearing. Where did the ribbons go? Oh, maybe I should resharpen, it's been... 30 minutes since the last sharpening?!"

Sorry @Bill Alston for being a highjacker of your thread. It's fun to experiment with new things like this. It's just how Mike Hunter did it with his tools 20-some years ago. If at first you don't succeed...

 

[Kevin Jenness]

10 minutes? I guess I would have to set a timer to be sure but I don't think I come close to that interval before sharpening a HSS tool. Maybe 10 minutes with a Thompson 10v gouge, depending. I always sharpen after roughing a shape, maybe multiple times while roughing a large piece if needed.

I don't dislike sharpening, it's just part of the process, but I'd rather be turning than sharpening. If people keep beavering away with dull tools without realizing it they will probably do it regardless of the tool quality.

I get the concept that beginners may benefit from the relatively rapid breakdown of a HSS edge and the consequent required sharpening practice but once you start to sense when the tool is dull and get a handle on correcting the situation, better steel is just more efficient.

Saying that one can't discern with one's physical senses when a tool needs sharpening doesn't square with my experience. I can see the difference between a cleanly tooled surface and a slightly ragged one, see the difference between a sharp edge and one with a rounded facet, feel the difference in resistance when cutting and feel whether the edge catches or slides over my fingernail. Getting to the point where one can make those distinctions does take time and attention. Without that developed awareness how can one know when to sharpen? A timer won't do the job given all the variables involved.


As far as the cost goes, I find Thompson tools a good value as they last much longer. I think I paid about $100 apiece for an unhandled 5/8" bowl gouge and a 1/2" spindle gouge, reasonable enough considering their quality and that they are my go-to tools. Just my $.02.

 

[Bill Alston]

Sorry @Bill Alston for being a highjacker of your thread.

No problem! Some folks get upset about thread drift sometimes, but I’m not one of them.

 

[Bill Blasic]

On edit, I bet the majority of mass production turnings are still done with plain HSS or even carbon steel cutters designed for extreme shear cutting. Google on Mattison lathes which aren't really even lathes in the sense turning is defined by the AAW.

When I first started turning steel at Erie Forge and Steel in 1965 I used HSS tools that you ground to the shape you needed. After 4 years in the USMC I went to work in Erie at the GE plant and there for 33 years I used carbide inserts. I doubt that any mass production turning is done using HSS.

 

[Doug Freeman]

Currently, the most I will interact with other turners is at most once a month

Consider this - mentoring does not have to be in person. A lot can be communicated with a phone call, facetime, zoom, text, email, etc. I’m currently working with 2 new turners, both 100’s of miles away, using these methods (people I already knew that started turning). It’s not quite as good as in-person but has been very helpful to them.

If there are 1 or 2 people in your turning club willing, it would be far better than the nothing you get now for the month between meetings.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

I doubt that any mass production turning is done using HSS.

As I said, Google on Mattison shaping lathes, also back knife lathes and auto variety lathes. All these production woodturning machines use a cutterhead that is as long as the part being turned. These all are primarily machines that turn spindle type work which I assume far exceeds the number of bowl turnings in production quantities. Very little similarity to the metal turning you did in your career or traditional hand woodturning.

Way back in the day for fun I rescued a 1930's auto variety lathe on the way to the scrap yard. A fascinating Rube Goldberg contraption with linkages and cams. Most of the included cutterheads were unique to one part design were made from high carbon steel auto leaf springs sharpened with a cutting edge like a kitchen knife to peel the blank . Those would cut thousands of parts with only occasional honing of the cutting edges. With shear cutting little sanding is needed. The ideal wood for these machines is air dried birch which made them not so common on the west coast, most were in the upper east coast.

 

[John K Jordan]

Turners who can't achieve the perfect cut, almost always resort to aggressive sanding to eliminate the flaws. On cross-grain bowls, aggressive sanding ALWAYS results in removing more material from the long grain than it does from the end grain......and THAT mean a deterioration in "perfect geometry". Destroying the perfect geometry means you've lost control of the ability for the details to look refined and pristine.

To me, that's another argument for all turners (even bowl turners) to learn spindle turning, a proven way (according to a number of experienced turners (I have references) to teach good tool control. I quit sanding with rotating disks on a close-quarters drill long ago. Besides the dust, I didn't like what it did to the wood, as you mentioned, and also to wood with softer areas which could be unevenly abraded. Plus, such sanding can compromise fine turned detail. These days I turn, remove gouge marks with NRS, then use hand scrapers off the lathe before sanding by hand. If I'm not having a bad day, I can usually start with 320 or perhaps 220, sometimes finer.

Turn continuously for 10 minutes.

I don't know what I think about the "setting a timer" method. What I do instead is have more than one tool, say several spindle gouges, ground identically. When one gets dull, I put it aside and use another one. When all are dull I sharpen them all. I've used them so much I know when one is dull without comparing.

Have more than one of the same tools would make it easier for a beginner to pick up a "fresh" one at some point and make a cut - will instantly let you know if the other needs to be sharpened. If picking up a sharp tool doesn't help, the problem is somewhere else - the particular wood, using the wrong tool, the turner.

JKJ

 

[Steve Tiedman]

The arbitrary choice of the 10-minute sharpening experiment would be to show a beginner, in a repeated fashion, the nuiances between sharp, kinda sharp, and dull, and back to sharp. It would help develop a habit of leaving the lathe for the grinder, regularly (again, 10 min is arbitrary here). Yes, multiple tools and high tech tools are to be considered, but for a new turner learning on their own at home... it is an exercise in familiarity with sharp and dull edges. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, other than making a point for the new turner.

 

[Alan Weinberg]

The arbitrary choice of the 10-minute sharpening experiment would be to show a beginner, in a repeated fashion, the nuiances between sharp, kinda sharp, and dull, and back to sharp. It would help develop a habit of leaving the lathe for the grinder, regularly (again, 10 min is arbitrary here). Yes, multiple tools and high tech tools are to be considered, but for a new turner learning on their own at home... it is an exercise in familiarity with sharp and dull edges. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, other than making a point for the new turner.

It’s a great point. As a relatively new turner—2 1/2 years—my recommendation now to newer turners is to learn early how to sharpen. That wasn’t drilled into me and frankly it scared me a bit. Took me a year to learn the importance and to do it correctly.

 

[Bill Blasic]

Today a new turner can easily do a search on You Tube and see a thousand videos on sharpening with 99% show using a jig. The first that comes up is the Oneway Wolverine which is one of the best. A woodturning club is one of the best resources to learn. At one time I belonged to 5 clubs, 1 at home, 1 at 2 hours away, 2 at 2 1/2 hours away and one 7 hours away. I learned a lot fast so a 2+ hour car ride was well worth it. Perhaps my students were lucky because I had 4 grinders with four different systems to show them, my point was get a sharpening system.

 

[Steve Tiedman]

@Bill Blasic, agreed, get a sharpening system.

20-some years ago when I was a club member, I did a live sharpening demo for a meeting. And we regularly held monthly small group sessions aimed particularly at novice turners. "Steve, will you sharpen my tool? Steve, will you reshape my tool?" No, but I will teach you how to do it. So many were so nervous and reluctant to approach the grinder, when in reality it is very much the same process as presenting the same tool to a piece of wood. Easier, actually (use a baby touch only). The request was so common that I finally offered a one-on-one class at my shop, 2-3 hours long for $45 (a little cash in my pocket, but demonstrated the seriousness of the process to the student). They brought their own tools, we used my grinder and Oneway system (and set up their Varigrind or Ellsworth if they had one), they did all of the work, and in an evening or Saturday afternoon they went away with the solid groundwork of shaping and sharpening their tools, and a thorough understanding of the hows and whys. I did that for about 3 years and had a few dozen come through. It faded away when I ended club and AAW membership, and Youtube eventually came along, but hopefully those folks stuck with it and passed along their skills to the next novice.

 

[Odie]

To me, that's another argument for all turners (even bowl turners) to learn spindle turning, a proven way (according to a number of experienced turners (I have references) to teach good tool control.

The problem here is that cross grain bowl turning is entirely different than spindle turning. With cross grain bowl turning you cannot choose what direction the cutting edge presents itself for the best cut. Because of that, twice per revolution, the cutting edge presents itself at exactly the worst possible angle. (With some radically grained woods and burls, the problem is significantly worse.) This is unlike spindle turning, where you can choose to present the tool for the best possible cut.

No question about it, though, spindle turning does give a better conceptual awareness of what it takes to achieve the best possible cut....and that should be part of everyone's curriculum. When that is fully understood is the time to contemplate and deal with the consequences of not having the best possible tool presentation.....as would be the case in cross grain bowl turning.

=o=

 

[Bill Alston]

The problem here is that cross grain bowl turning is entirely different than spindle turning. With cross grain bowl turning you cannot choose what direction the cutting edge presents itself for the best cut. Because of that, twice per revolution, the cutting edge presents itself at exactly the worst possible angle.

This raises an interesting point for me. I’ve watched a number of Japanese woodturners on YouTube and they’ve invariably been turning End Grain Bowls.
The process and the tools used, make it look far more intuitive to me. You might also consider that English pole lathe turners may also turn several end grain bowls from a log. In retrospect modern bowl turners make life difficult for themselves turning side grain. But, there’s the challenge I suppose, and sourcing side grain blanks is much easier due to modern timber processing. Bowl turning is not of much interest to me, although I have turned more than a few. I would like to try some end grain bowls though but obviously most trees get planked, and normally not in sufficient thickness to make anything other than a tiny bowl!
As a result I’ve sadly not been in a hurry to make any traditional Japanese style turning tools. One day hopefully.

 

[John K Jordan]

This raises an interesting point for me. I’ve watched a number of Japanese woodturners on YouTube and they’ve invariably been turning End Grain Bowls.
The process and the tools used, make it look far more intuitive to me.... But, there’s the challenge I suppose, and sourcing side grain blanks is much easier due to modern timber processing. Bowl turning is not of much interest to me, although I have turned more than a few. I would like to try some end grain bowls though but obviously most trees get planked, and normally not in sufficient thickness to make anything other than a tiny bowl!

Turning end grain blocks does have certain advantages, such as possible decreased drying time, less warping, can be easier to hollow. Besides the more available suitable wood, I think one attraction of face/side grain is the wider variety interesting looks of the wood grain, figure, etc. inside the bowl/platter. Some, of course, can be gob-smacking spectacular. End grain can show interesting sides, great for boxes, vases, etc.

But you hit on an important point the problem of getting suitable blanks for end grain.

That big problem might be less if you have friendly local, independent or private sawyers in your area. I can cut logs any way I want and any thickness on my sawmill (up to the limit of the mill) and sometimes do cut fairly large endgrain pieces. I visited one independent sawyer who cut and air-dried a huge amount of wood - he would also custom saw on request. For a price.

The biggest problem I see is to get good-sized blanks without including or getting close to the pith - will probably need to start with a HUGE log, difficult to find and harder for the typical woodturner to transport and handle. AND without mega logs, one side of the blank may be near the pith and the other side contain a lot of sapwood - fine for some but perhaps undesirable to others, especially with some species, since juvenile and sapwood may shrink and warp differently. I've cut and dried good 12x12 and larger end grain blanks but it was pure luck to get log sections big enough and hard to load without hauling equipment. I started sectioning with the chainsaw and finished on the sawmill. (I almost always cut logs into square/rectangular blanks due to more flexibility of use after drying. Big, dry blanks can be stored indefinitely and cut up numerous ways at turning time.)

Some people do leave the pith in the end grain blank and promptly turn green to final thickness to minimize pith cracks (or glue in plugs).

I've made several end-grain bowls. I think the challenge of tuning and smoothing the sides of cross/face grain is not a significant issue with the tools and methods I use. I'm happy I really prefer turning smaller things over large - quicker, easier, cheaper, healthier, safer, wider species availabilty, can make more people happy with the same amount of wood... And how many normal people have room in the home for more than one or two of big turnings? About 10 years ago I did a club demo I called "Top Ten Reasons to Turn Small". Good fun. But to each his/her (their?) own.

JKJ

 

[David Stranz]

The problem here is that cross grain bowl turning is entirely different than spindle turning. With cross grain bowl turning you cannot choose what direction the cutting edge presents itself for the best cut. Because of that, twice per revolution, the cutting edge presents itself at exactly the worst possible angle. (With some radically grained woods and burls, the problem is significantly worse.) This is unlike spindle turning, where you can choose to present the tool for the best possible cut.

@Odie - Sorry, I don't know how to quote a previous post with attribution.

The Guild of New Hampshire Woodworkers has published a series of YouTube videos of turning demonstrations by Matt Monaco. In several of them, he makes exactly your points about cross grain in bowls and how to properly present the tool to minimize or even eliminate tearout. Here is an example:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS0mIefN4kU