When are we too set in our ways

[hockenbery]

After reading @egsiegel s post in another thread, I got to thinking about when it doesn’t make sense to try a new technique.
Made me wonder about a post I made about how using the Flute up shear cut cut on the inside of the bowl reduced sanding for me significantly. This is a difficult cut to master without a teacher. @Doug Freeman experience leads him to call it the suicide cut - a term I had not heard before. I was lucky to have learned the cut in a class with Liam O’Neil and to have it reinforced in a class with David Ellsworth.

The problem with an experienced turner trying the flute up shear cut without a class or mentor is they may never get beyond the Suicide experience.
They may ruin pieces trying and time spent learning will be lost production they may never regain in reduced sanding time in the future.

I visited with Myron Curtis( a legend in Tidewater Virginia). Myron had these huge lathes for architectural turning most of which he did with 1/4” scrapers.
We talked about choices of tools. Myron told me he though he could get a better surface with a gouge but didn’t think it would be any faster. His reluctance to seitch to gouges was his loss of income in the month or 2 it would take for him to get proficient with gouges.

Similar to Myron

I saw Stuart this weekend at Totally Turning in Saratoga.
heard is explanation of 40/40 and have stuck with my conclusion that if I was starting out, I'd probably try it and adopt it.
but after 40 years of turning....I'm pretty comfortable with my grinds for my basic tools (gouges, skew, etc.) and it does not make sense to change.

I had to turn a large platter a couple of years ago and I experimented with the 40/40 and actually made 3 platters.
Definitely put a nice surface on the slightly curved platters. I’ll use the 40/40 if I do more platters.
Don’t think I’ll use it to hollow a bowl.

So when are we too set in our ways to try new things.

I was anti carbides until two things happened To convince me the tools were worth a try.
1 a company gave me a #4 Hunter tool
2 @john lucas shared his experience and videos with the Hunter carbides.
Tried it hollowing a couple of goblet bowls…. Sold.

 

[Brian Gustin]

I'm always trying new stuff that I read or learn about on here, YouTube, and from books...

However, I discover that some techniques (the suicide cut comes to mind) I seem to have stumbled across by accident by myself (I didn't know any better) Not having a mentor or coach to stand at the lathe with me, means I have probably developed a hybrid style that probably would drive an instructor nuts trying to teach me "their" way.... maybe the cut that I do is not even what y'all would refer to as that "suicide cut" to begin with- I don't know... (what I do is start the cut in with the nose and roll the gouge left until the wing just barely starts shearing - I get ribbons of thinner-than-paper shavings, until I breathe in and it "bumps" me away from the cut - I have to hold my breath when doing some cuts like that, much like a sniper will just before the shot. )

I read about the 40/40 grind on here (someone explained how to "sort of" duplicate it on a vari-grind) and ground one of my 1/2 inch gouges to that, and find it is my go-to when doing the entry cut on natural edge bowls, and other areas where I want to start cutting "straight in" towards the head stock - I don't have to reach as far across the lathe bed...

I have some carbide tools, and almost never use them at all any more (but they were actually "midi" sized set for cheap) .. and just this past week reading about Robohippy doing most of his roughing witrh scrapers, I said to myself "I've never tried roughing a bowl with a scraper, indeed, never even used the "arrow pointed" scraper at all" so now I am thinking that I should maybe try and see what sort of luck I have trying to rough out a bowl using just scrapers.. might save me some sharpening time if I don't have to use gouges as often when rough turning...

In short, I don't think I'll ever really be "set" in my ways, insofar as if I have the tools to do them with, I'll always be willing to try something different... but highly likely I'll have difficulty if I go to a "session" with a pro turner that is trying to teach me "their way" because I suspect I'd have to "un-learn" some habits (to some, they'd be bad habits, to others, might be "the right way", I'd bet)

 

[Tim Tucker]

Just my personal philosophy....
The longer I can remain open minded to learning new things - the longer I can fore-stall the ravages of the enemy: time. Neural plasticity theory is based on continually challenging the brain with new inputs, problems to solve, different patterns of behaviors - anything to challenge ..." the rut" that is our natural path of least resistance.

After all....a rut is merely a grave with the ends kicked out.......

 

[Russ Braun]

Just my personal philosophy....
The longer I can remain open minded to learning new things - the longer I can fore-stall the ravages of the enemy: time. Neural plasticity theory is based on continually challenging the brain with new inputs, problems to solve, different patterns of behaviors - anything to challenge ..." the rut" that is our natural path of least resistance.

After all....a rut is merely a grave with the ends kicked out.......

Sounds like you’re ready for Segmenting Tim, lol!!

 

[Tim Tucker]

Sounds like you’re ready for Segmenting Tim, lol!!

I said a was open minded...not crazy!
Segmented work will capture me one day. But for now, I am running from it while exploring skills building in all of the aspects that I believe will make for really solid skills in segmented turning.....( that sounds like I am running for office huh?)

 

[Bill Blasic]

Learning new things is a problem for me as I can't seem to pass up any new thing I see. I'll bet if I did a walk through of my shop I could find about a dozen new tools/toys or processes that I have but have not yet tried. The closest I will ever get to segmenting is using my Ring Master on my 16" Jet

 

[Russ Braun]

Learning new things is a problem for me as I can't seem to pass up any new thing I see. I'll bet if I did a walk through of my shop I could find about a dozen new tools/toys or processes that I have but have not yet tried. The closest I will ever get to segmenting is using my Ring Master on my 16" Jet

Come into the light Bill!! We will be here when you decide to come over!!

 

[Russ Braun]

I said a was open minded...not crazy!
Segmented work will capture me one day. But for now, I am running from it while exploring skills building in all of the aspects that I believe will make for really solid skills in segmented turning.....( that sounds like I am running for office huh?)

Crazy is 100% perspective based Tim; some said the same thing about using fire to cook food!!

 

[Tim Tucker]

Touche! Russ
In truth, I admire segmented work and basket illusions.But I fear that I would go overboard once I start down those roads for now.

 

[Doug Freeman]

I also admire segmenting and basket illusion, but….I did 20-30 segmenting pieces early in turning (still have my wedgie sled, layer press, etc) then I got a chainsaw and discovered wet wood! I enjoy cutting wood vs lots of agonizingly slow detail work, so I doubt I return to segmenting or try illusion. It depends on what “turns you on”.

@hockenbery Thankfully it has not been my experience to call the flute up cut the “suicide cut”. It hasnt happened to me YET. I came across the term somewhere, It might have been in an Ellsworth video or another source, but the term is appropriate. I have heard David use the term, paraphrasing “some call it the suicide cut”.

 

[Brian Horais]

After reading @egsiegel s post in another thread, I got to thinking about when it doesn’t make sense to try a new technique.
Made me wonder about a post I made about how using the Flute up shear cut cut on the inside of the bowl reduced sanding for me significantly. This is a difficult cut to master without a teacher. @Doug Freeman experience leads him to call it the suicide cut - a term I had not heard before. I was lucky to have learned the cut in a class with Liam O’Neil and to have it reinforced in a class with David Ellsworth.

The problem with an experienced turner trying the flute up shear cut without a class or mentor is they may never get beyond the Suicide experience.
They may ruin pieces trying and time spent learning will be lost production they may never regain in reduced sanding time in the future.

I visited with Myron Curtis( a legend in Tidewater Virginia). Myron had these huge lathes for architectural turning most of which he did with 1/4” scrapers.
We talked about choices of tools. Myron told me he though he could get a better surface with a gouge but didn’t think it would be any faster. His reluctance to seitch to gouges was his loss of income in the month or 2 it would take for him to get proficient with gouges.

Similar to Myron


I had to turn a large platter a couple of years ago and I experimented with the 40/40 and actually made 3 platters.
Definitely put a nice surface on the slightly curved platters. I’ll use the 40/40 if I do more platters.
Don’t think I’ll use it to hollow a bowl.

So when are we too set in our ways to try new things.

I was anti carbides until two things happened To convince me the tools were worth a try.
1 a company gave me a #4 Hunter tool
2 @john lucas shared his experience and videos with the Hunter carbides.
Tried it hollowing a couple of goblet bowls…. Sold.

I'm a firm believer that trying new techniques keeps the creative juices flowing. Not all new techniques are easy to master as Hock points out, but if you get 'hooked' by a new technique, keep trying and you will get better. Twisted turning is one such example for me. As to new tools, it has been a hit or miss process for me. I have some carbide tools I use for smaller cuts but wasn't really sold until I tried the Hunter carbide tools. Now I am a firm believer in the Hunter tools and am still learning how useful they are. I have tried some other tools, such as the carbide tipped parting tool and have been disappointed. Remember it is often the journey that is more important than the destination.

 

[robo hippy]

I will never die from boredom, just too many things to 'learn'..... My bowl turning techniques have changed a lot since I made my videos. Hope to do more videos this year.

Brian, I have a video called 'Scary Scrapers', check it out.

Maybe some day I will learn to use the skew. Been playing with some honey locust and had some off cut spindle/box blanks. Trying the skew. Also trying to learn that back cut that Raffen does for hollowing out boxes.... That would make for a good class.

robo hippy

 

[Brian Horais]

Thanks Robo, I especially liked your 'mantra' dessert first, main course later. I have shied away from scrapers after some big catches inside bowls, but your video has given me some great insights. I took one of my big thick scrapers and turned it into a double-sided negative rake scraper. This is one of my 'go-to' tools.

 

[Richard Coers]

An early observation I made about professional woodturners was the lack of opportunity for them to innovate after a prominent signature style was successful. The collectors of high end turnings recognized and pretty much expected the next piece they bought to look similar. That was at the start of the artistic side of this craft and may well have changed. Much the same though as some rock bands forced to play the same song in their sets for over 50 years for the same fans.

 

[hockenbery]

An early observation I made about professional woodturners was the lack of opportunity for them to innovate after a prominent signature style was successful. The collectors of high end turnings recognized and pretty much expected the next piece they bought to look similar. That was at the start of the artistic side of this craft and may well have changed. Much the same though as some rock bands forced to play the same song in their sets for over 50 years for the same fans.

Quite a few stick with one or similar styles their whole careers.
But others have pretty extensive set diverse turnings in their body of work

When I first met Trent Bosch in 2000 he was a production bowl turner and part time artist. The bowl turning restricted his time for the artistic. He has moved on and developed a dozen innovative series in his body of work.

Michael Hosulak, Todd Hoyer, David Ellsworth, Cindy Drozda, are just a few who have a wide variety of work.

Work of Binh Pho and Frank Sudol evolved a lot in the time I knew them.

Often these folks demonstrate the same old demos because their current work doesn’t lend itself to a 90 minute presentation.

My generalization is a bit different for the top tier turners.
I see some turners who do one thing and try it do it better than anyone else.
I see others who strive to do things no one else has.
And there is lot of ground in between.

 

[egsiegel]

Just to be clear....
I am ALWAYS trying new techniques and tools.
My comment in the other thread was that I've seen Stuart Batty (and Ashley Harwood) demo and talk about the 40/40 grind, and I just don't see what they can do with it that I can't currently, comfortably, do.
While it might bring some benefit, for me, I think it solves a problem that I don't feel that I have.

 

[Dean Center]

One of the two big decisions we make over our lives is Struggle vs. Acceptance. Those who enjoy new challenges, whether woodturning or otherwise, are still in the more Struggle than Acceptance side of life. Some folks, many of them in my turning chapter, are on the Acceptance side. They get acceptable results with tools and techniques they've been using for years, and they're comfortable accepting where they are and are not interested in putting out the effort to develop new skills. We admire those folks who are still active and trying new things later in life, but for many folks, they're just too tired and it's too much effort to be that person. Both are OK, it's a personal choice, affected by many outside factors.

On another level, we also struggle with who we are as a person. Young people Struggle to be a better person and feel guilty they aren't who they might be. Eventually, maturity sets in and we come to Accept ourselves, warts and all, and find some peace in doing so. It's all good.

 

[Tim Tucker]

Dean - I can accept my warts....just need help convincing the Mrs. T to accept them......

 

[Odie]

I'm one who has developed my own style. I am more interested in the process, or technical aspects of my finished product these days.....and, that process is in a continual state of improvement and refinement. Nobody will ever see that, understand that, and connect the dots of how I have arrived at my process at this point in time. My style doesn't necessarily reflect the improvements as much as it does the personal satisfaction I get in making improvements to the process. I get it, that some people might be bored with continually producing products that all have very obvious similarities, but like I said, the process, evaluation of the process, improving the process, and refining the process is what gives me my own great personal satisfaction. Those who would feel they'd be bored with making similar things repeatedly, don't see or understand the continuous evolution that precipitated the finished product.....there is no vision, because there is no concept of how the process has evolved.

Then there is the great appeal and satisfaction I get from applying my process to the great aesthetic appeal that only a variety of God's creations......or, Mother Nature's naturally beautiful woods can contribute. Outside of the process itself, this appreciation for beautiful woods, is where some of my additional wonderment comes from.....and I know those who have my bowls also enjoy Mother Nature's input!....it isn't just about what my hands and mental facilities can create..... ..... Aside from the naturally occurring aesthetics, they don't see the not-so-apparent process, but they do see the results of the process....and, because they haven't traveled the same path in the evolvement of the process, there is a disconnect in connecting the dots by any other method than guesswork. In the end, a variety of wood species, and appealing grain patterns give each of my bowls a little bit of uniqueness all of their own, even though the process that created them is obviously similar for all in the totality of the overall acquired visual impact. A combination of these things.....the process..... plus unique individual pieces of wood, creates desire, and sales.....and, although the sales are secondary to my need to have personal satisfaction, they are necessary to make possible a continuation of that which makes my little world go around!



-----odie-----