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Which is more important.......

Odie

Odie

Panning for Montana gold, with Betsy, the mule!
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Knowledge, or experience. I know that many will say it's a combination of the two, but if you could separate them for analysis, which would be the more important to a turner's progress?

Have a good day, guys and gals.....:D

-----odie-----
 
Thinking like John, can you have experience without gaining knowledge? For me, there really is no substitute for holding a gouge in my hands and working with the wood so I guess experience is more important for me. I'm anxious to hear what others may say.
 
I suppose I should give my thoughts.......

For my way of looking at it, I'd venture that a little bit of knowledge, and a whole lot of experience leads to "individuality", and individual progress to a much higher degree than.......a lot of knowledge and minimal amount of experience.

In other words......time in the saddle is more important to me, than searching for answers someone else might give me. It might take more time to gain knowledge, but the experience in gaining that "hands on" knowledge is golden! :D

---------------------------------

Thanks about the photo, John. It's my effort to develop an online "eccentric old guy personality". (Actually, I left my pick, shovel, and gold pan outside on Betsy the mule!) :rolleyes::)

-----odie-----
 
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Depends on which of the two turners has deeper pockets or available time to devote to the craft.
If you have the time to read books and watch video's you can advance your skills.
If you spend hours on a lathe honing your skills with the different tools you can advance your skills.
It helps to have the knowledge and understanding of the proper use of each tool and the wood types being cut.
If you understand why the wood is reacting a certain way to the presentation of the tool you will be able
to apply this understanding to the other tools and wood types being turned.
If you have disposable income you can attend hands on training seminars and advance your skills.
Most people will only retain a minimal amount of knowledge or skills from any amount of training.
If you don't apply that knowledge or learned skill within a period of time you can forget them.
Time is the other variable that has the most effect on the outcome.
 
Experience. That is why if you ask 10 turners how to do something you get 10 different answers. Just a subtle difference in the grinds you use makes you learn to use them differently than I might. I find time at the lathe is a wonderful teacher. That being said, Knowledge up front speeds up the learning curve tremendously. We have all had those slap your forehead kind of experiences when you finally realize there is a really cool way of doing something. Then you find out later that someone else has been doing it for years. You could have learned from them and saved a whole lot wasted time.
Tool control I find is something that can only be learned by time at the lathe. Someone can show you a technique but until you really spend the time at the lathe and practice you will never be good at that technique.
 
Knowledge without experience is at best theoretical. Knowledge, however, can suggest avenues or ideas which can perhaps be useful/interesting IF ACTED ON. I have become aware of things -- 'knowlege 'e.g., types of turning -- some with techniques suggested, others without. It was only when I actually attempted making/doing that I learned something useful. In many cases my approach quickly diverged from how it was originally done.
 
To add, I recall a saying: Experience is the best teacher. For instance, a college friend commented that he learned more behind the schoolhouse than inside it.
 
Learning new methods of turning anything else other than making pens (ie Bowls, platters ect.) I think knowledge is the most important for me now. I have to learn knowledge before I gain experience.;)
 
hockenbery said:
Knowledge
If you don’t learn anything from experience it was wasted time
Click to expand...

And what about those who do learn from experience? Not all turners are the same as those who get nowhere by using their own initiative. :eek:

As I see it, sometimes gaining knowledge by mentoring, or the classroom, is the same as adding a rudder to the directions any individual may take. By adding that rudder, it eliminates possibilities that could have been, and never will be. o_O :D

"Stick time"......"Time in the saddle".....those old sayings didn't come about by accident!

-----odie-----
 
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I read it on the internet it must be true!
Knowledge is based on what you are taught and what you perceive (right or wrong).
Our knowledge and understanding hopefully improves over time from personal experience.
The world was flat at one time and it seems there are some that still believe in that today. :eek:
 
Odie I thought you might be going hermit on us. To me experience is knowledge and knowledge leads to experience. I cannot see one existing without the other however there is the seeking of knowledge to understand why there is a procedure to accomplish a task.
 
Mike Johnson said:
Our knowledge and understanding hopefully improves over time from personal experience.
The world was flat at one time and it seems there are some that still believe in that today. :eek:
Click to expand...

Knowledge is fact based and is often confused with belief which may or may not be fact based.
What changed over time was our collection of facts. The knowledge base (collection of facts) was once small enough to support the “flat earth” belief derived.
By the third century BC the earth was pretty well known to be a spheroid.
However people continued to believe the “flat earth” for many centuries by limiting the facts they used.

Knowledge: the fact or state of knowing; the perception of fact or truth.

Belief: an opinion or conviction confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof.

In woodturning we have both Knowledge and Beliefs. It isn’t alway easy to tell them apart.
 
odie said:
And what about those who do learn from experience? Not all turners are the same as those who get nowhere by using their own initiative. :eek:

As I see it, sometimes gaining knowledge by mentoring, or the classroom, is the same as adding a rudder to the directions any individual may take. By adding that rudder, it eliminates possibilities that could have been, and never will be. o_O :D

"Stick time"......"Time in the saddle".....those old sayings didn't come about by accident!

-----odie-----
Click to expand...
Kelly,
Skill building and knowledge building I consider very different but related.

“Stick time” is essential for skill building. That is the doing. Hopefully anyone getting in a pilot seat has a good bit of knowledge. They at least have to be taught what the “Stick” is.

Knowing what to do is the knowledge. The wright brothers get a pass on getting in the cockpit without extensive prior knowledge. Most modern day pilots get in the seat with knowledge then try to execute what they know.


The fundamental question you have is does learning ( turning skills, tool selection, lathe operation, design elements, safety procedures, ...) limit your creativity?
Who knows.
I would say It does not. It creates a place to explore from.
Rather than limit it puts us closer to edge.
 
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Knowledge: the fact or state of knowing; the perception of fact or truth.

As of late that is a lot like throwing a dart at a moving target.
 
Then there is creativity, the ability to take knowledge and skill in a field and do something new (combine the two and take it to the next step).

This includes bringing in knowledge and skill from unrelated topics and combining them with knowledge and skill in a field you are working in to make something completely new.

Stu
 
I’m left handed - most of my life I’ve learned (gained knowledge) on how something is done, then adapted it to my strongest way of performing the same skill. Learned to hit a baseball right handed first, then shifted to left when I understood the mechanics of the skill. I approached turning the same way. Early mentors invariably taught me the basics on the right side. As I gained both knowledge and experience I found my own way of doing it. I turn largely ambidextrously as a result, shifting from left to right as the work requires.
So, for me, knowledge of the basics came first, then experience brought refinement and additional knowledge. The two are hopelessly entwined, at least in my case.
 
odie said:
I suppose I should give my thoughts.......

For my way of looking at it, I'd venture that a little bit of knowledge, and a whole lot of experience leads to "individuality", and individual progress to a much higher degree than.......a lot of knowledge and minimal amount of experience.

In other words......time in the saddle is more important to me, than searching for answers someone else might give me. It might take more time to gain knowledge, but the experience in gaining that "hands on" knowledge is golden! :D

---------------------------------

Thanks about the photo, John. It's my effort to develop an online "eccentric old guy personality". (Actually, I left my pick, shovel, and gold pan outside on Betsy the mule!) :rolleyes::)

-----odie-----
Click to expand...

Yer deep Odie. But even that time spent "searching for answers someone else might give" is part of the experience really. My point being that the only way we gain knowledge is through experience-- whether it is hands on, or theoretical.
 
odie said:
Knowledge, or experience. I know that many will say it's a combination of the two, but if you could separate them for analysis, which would be the more important to a turner's progress?

Have a good day, guys and gals.....:D

-----odie-----
Click to expand...

Neither one. Plain old dumb luck wins every time. :D

Seriously, it's the other way around ... your learning progress enhances your knowledge and experience repertoire so they are the result and not the cause.

This reminded me of another thing about good and bad judgement:
"Good judgement comes from experience ... and ...
experience comes from bad judgement."​
 
I gained my knowledge thru experience. There was no internet when I started, no you tube or a list of AAW proved videos. No club and very few turners on the island... After a few months of frustration I bought a Del Stubbs VHS tape, I would watch it in the house and run to the shop... Then I got a Raffan book... Then my good friend Cole Warren said, come and watch me turn... Knowledge and experience, almost like there should be one word...
 
Emiliano Achaval said:
I gained my knowledge thru experience. There was no internet when I started, no you tube or a list of AAW proved videos. No club and very few turners on the island... After a few months of frustration I bought a Del Stubbs VHS tape, I would watch it in the house and run to the shop... Then I got a Raffan book... Then my good friend Cole Warren said, come and watch me turn... Knowledge and experience, almost like there should be one word...
Click to expand...

I probably had the same Del Stubbs tape.....the one where he adapted a foot pedal to release the tension on the drive belt between the spindle and motor? I also had the Raffan book. I can remember studying that book like I was prepping for a final exam! ;) His first vhs tape was also a good one.....and, the John Jordan vhs tape. My very first tutoring (of sorts) was an old book on turning from the 1940's or 1950's. That one taught me many of the old ways of turning......studied that book, too! Over the years, I've acquired about a dozen more turning tapes......

To make things clear, I do absolutely believe in getting some basic knowledge......but, I reject the notion that a continual exposure to instruction is a good thing. To my thinking, it will eventually work against controlling your own destiny to places your own ingenuity and creative instincts will take you. Most of us have been exposed to "over educated idiots" in our lifetimes. These "know-it-all" people can't be convinced that "time in the saddle" is far more important than knowing all the taught formulas for success. Is there a correlation there?......yes, I do believe there is something there that can be applied to woodturning, and some people who pursue it! :eek:

To be sure.....there are plenty of turners who have loads of experience, but they still struggle to get beyond rudimentary accomplishments. We do need to get beyond any belief that all individuals are equal in their ability to explore possibilities, and to separate successes from failing ideas. Also, there are those who are satisfied with less than what could be, and then there are those who continually re-define their priorities. :D

-----odie-----
 
Fred Belknap said:
Ever try to tell someone how to ride a bicycle.
Click to expand...

anim_lol.gif
 
Fred Belknap said:
Ever try to tell someone how to ride a bicycle.
Click to expand...
There is a whole lot of instruction available on how to ride.
There are coaches and trainers at the high end.

When I learned I watched what others did. People pushed me and let go.

These are the fundamental elements of most woodturning classes
The instructor does a demo the students do. The instructor gives a “push” as needed.
Most classes are mostly doing.
 
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I took a class once on technical writing. They asked us to tell someone how to ride a bike. Very difficult. We also were given a really odd sort of leggo structure. We were instructed to take it apart and then tell how to build it. Everyone in the class had one. Then we traded and gave the disassembled structure to other participants along with our instructions on how to reassemble it. Man that was an eye opener. You learn really quickly how easy it is to misinterpret the written word.
Ideally a good instructor is a motivator. Making you want to learn and want to aquire more knowledge. Hopefully they also inspire you to get in the shop and gain experience which enhances the knowledge.
 
I find often as not individual's supposed knowledge is actually opinion. Opinion is a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

I would say experience is most important.
 
Lets not forget that thinking outside the box and trying new ideas and experimenting
is the only way new discoveries are made.
 
Technical writing??? Reminds me of instructions that are written by someone in a foreign country. Hard to read and/or understand.
 
Mike Johnson said:
Lets not forget that thinking outside the box and trying new ideas and experimenting
is the only way new discoveries are made.
Click to expand...

Probably the most appropriate comment in this thread! :D

This is where undisturbed footprints are left! ;)

-----odie-----
 
When I started turning a couple of years ago, it was all trial and error. That was slow and painful. I bought books and videos to gain some knowledge. (Used books and videos can be found and are cheap.). My turning improved a bit. I saved up enough for a one day class with an experienced turner to gain what I thought would be more knowledge. Much to my surprise, I didn’t learn “anything new”. It was the hands-on experience that the instructor shared with me that made a huge difference. The application of my knowledge and the correction of my errors by the instructor gave me the experience I needed to advance my skills. After thinking about this a while, I believe first you need knowledge and then you must apply that knowledge through experience.

Having said all this, I still use trial and error. When I learn something on this website from you guys, I run out to my shop to try it. The successes and failures can sometimes be dramatic. . However, I have found a mentor in our local club, who gets a chuckle out of my less than successful attempts at new things. He then takes the time to show how to achieve success, by guiding me step by step (hands on) to the right way of accomplishing my task. So I believe it takes both knowledge and experience to improve our skills.
 
Jon Minerich said:
didn’t learn “anything new”. It was the hands-on experience that the instructor shared with me that made a huge difference. The application of my knowledge and the correction of my errors by the instructor gave me the experience I needed to advance my skills.
Click to expand...

Great description of what makes hands-on instruction so valuable.
Knowing “what to do” is never quite the same as knowing “how to do”.

Things like riding the bevel become known through experience. students often get it by observation and the feeling the sensation of the bevel lock in as they roll the tool edge into bevel contact. Those that miss the bevel contact will usually get to feel the sensation of the locked in bevel when the instructor makes a subtle adjustment to the body position, grip, or just moves the tool from the end of the handle while student remains in control of the tool. The feel of the bevel becomes part of the knowledge.
 
This has been an interesting thread. Experimenting reminds me of two things- 1. One time Thomas Edison said that he hadn't found a way to make a light bulb but knew of 2,000 ways not to make one. 2. If it wasn't for Thomas Edison inventing the light bulb, we would be watching TV by candlelight!
 
John Torchick said:
This has been an interesting thread. Experimenting reminds me of two things- 1. One time Thomas Edison said that he hadn't found a way to make a light bulb but knew of 2,000 ways not to make one. 2. If it wasn't for Thomas Edison inventing the light bulb, we would be watching TV by candlelight!
Click to expand...

Today's much safer vehicles, with crumple zones etc. are designed and built using knowledge, derived from "virtual" experiments using finite element analysis. These virtual experiments can be performed much faster (and less expensively) than the old crash tests. You still do 1 or 2 crash test to make sure you didn't leave off a decimal point somewhere, but most of your design work is done theoretically.

If I have knowledge of grain direction and its effect on cuts, that helps inform my trial-and-error, and I can acquire experience more quickly (don't go past the bottom of the cove, unless you are seeking special effects with torn grain).
 
Off topic for the first part? Hy Tran, it is my observation that the manufacturers put hundreds of $$$$ of safety equipment on cars. But.......my further observation is that there is not one penny spent on "building" a safer driver. I have driven from central Florida to Wisconsin to Texas to southern California. As my father once observed in Atlanta- "There has to be a God. Someone has to be looking out for these people." And people wonder why their car insurance is so high.
As for wood turning- I like to putter around on the lathe and see what I can do with what tools I have. I have turned pen blanks with a roughing gouge, spindle gouge, skew, round nose scraper. The tools do a great job. Must be operator error that comes into play.
 
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