Can Someone Help me out ( LDD Bowl Drying issues )

Discussion in 'Woodturning Discussion Forum' started by Andrew McCarn, Sep 14, 2017.

  1. Andrew McCarn

    Andrew McCarn

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    So I have been doing the LDD bowl drying method for a few weeks now with pretty great success until recently...

    I decided to get the big bottles of Great Value Brand Dish-washing Liquid so I could feel up a large container and soak more bowls at once. WELL the outcome was I lost all 8 Maple bowls that were in the batch. Can someone please explain what has happened? Once the bowls were pulled from the mix, I washed them off but the soap as completely altered the maple. I have attached two images showing what this looks like.

    I attempted one last bowl with Ash and the this what I will call soap layer wasn't there but it changed the color of the Ash completely. Turning it green and then once sanded away, the wood is gray.

    I do the once turned bowl method (inspired by Reed Gray) and debated doing the twice turned method now but I would still like to know if ANYONE has any idea what happened or whats going on with the mix

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    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2017
  2. Fadi Zeidan

    Fadi Zeidan

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    I'm new so I cannot offer much advice. I had a kiln dry soft maple that appeared to be consistent in color. I turned it and sanded it, but then I noticed gray spot on both ends of the bowl. Is this what you are seeing as well?

    BTW, I use denatured alcohol soaking for drying bowls, did not notice discoloring issues and I've used maple before. This was my first experience with discoloration.

    IMG_0314.JPG IMG_0315.JPG
     
  3. Paul M. Kaplowitz

    Paul M. Kaplowitz

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    I have tried every drying method I have heard about over the last 25 years. (Micro wave, PEG, boiling in various liquids, soaking, kiln, vacuum kiln). They don't work. I rough turn green wood with uniform wall thickness from 3/4" to 1 1/2", depending on bowl diameter, 10% rule. Coat it with Anchorseal, weigh it, put a slip of paper inside with the date and the weight. Weigh it every month and when the weight is the same for two months it's dry. Return it and finish.
     
  4. odie

    odie

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    Right, Paul.....:D

    Other turners have gone to extremes, trying to figure out how to quickly season a roughed bowl......and, the results have always been the same. It's never with the same success rate as doing it by sealing, and then periodically weighing.....until that point where the weight stabilizes. To my thinking, these other turners need to just get used to the time element involved, and they will have success. It is what it is.....and, there is no getting around that. ;)

    -----odie-----
     
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  5. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    With the soap, you need clear, light tan/brown, or yellow. The green and blue will tint the wood. The black flecks are metal stains. Most of them come from metal powder on your hands and tools after you sharpen. I always have piles of wet shavings that I use to wipe off the tools and my hands after sharpening. concentrated lemon juice will remove the metal stains in seconds if you use it when they are fresh. If it sits over night or till dry, the lemon will bleach the wood. Lime does not work, no idea why. The ONLY thing the soap soak does is to greatly ease the sanding process, It makes a huge difference in how easy things are to sand out after they are dry. I have tried thinned mixes, and just spraying, but the mix needs to be 50/50 for the best results. The soak does nothing to aid drying or prevent cracking and warping. The bowls need to be completely submerged. If you use rocks, or any thing other than stainless steel to weight them down, this will add dark colors to the wood. If they are not submerged all the way, and just rolling them over a few times does not do it, you will get soap lines, which do not sand out. I do wrap the rims in plastic stretch film. With maple, this is a problem because it will mold under the plastic. My guess is the high sugar content of the maple is the reason. Most of the time, this is not a problem as maple is pretty easy to dry, especially if you make sure to round over the rims. If you soak some thing like black walnut in the soap mix, every thing else you put in after will be much darker when it comes out. When I put Pacific Madrone in it, the soap mix turns a nice purple/red color. I did limited DNA soaks. It did seem to pull some color out of the madrone. Light colored woods won't do much to the soap or DNA, but both seem to pull some color out of other woods, and that in turn will soak into what ever you put in next.

    Hope this helps explain better...

    robo hippy
     
  6. Andrew McCarn

    Andrew McCarn

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    @robo hippy - This mix is split 50/50 and the soap is clear, thats what I am confused on what caused this. If you look at the first picture, you can see the layer where I sanded away. Why did this certain mix completely gray the maple and then on top of that add a layer of dried soap?

    Im really considering giving DNA a try now but just trying to save on some money. ;)
     
  7. Lamar Wright

    Lamar Wright

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    Hello Andrew, I agree with Odie and Paul on green bowls. I was given several nice size green maple logs last month and I rough turned them and left them about 1 1/2 " thick. The green bowls have been drying now for about 3 or 4 weeks and I have no cracks just a little warping which is natural for green bowls. (at least maple that is). Like other turners have done, I got some index cards that I'll keep records on all my bowls green or kiln dried and record the weight, MC, bowl number and other information .
    I Have a thread titled "First Bowl" and Odie showed on one of his replies in that thread a great record system that he uses on all his work using index cards. After I have roughed a green I just use a sharpie to date the bowl and store it, record it each month and to dry natural....Happy turning and welcome to the forum.
     
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  8. Leo Van Der Loo

    Leo Van Der Loo

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    I have tried a few of these “Too Good To Be True” manners of bowl drying, yes the dishwashing soap as well, what a mess, and have found my bowl drying in the Brown Paper Bag too be the best way for me with a near Guaranteed good outcome every time, no mess no dangerous chemicals or costly setups required.

    Just a freshly rough turned bowl from wood without splits in them and stuck into a (Craft) Brown Paper Bag, nothing else added, set in a cool draft free place and just checked a couple of times on the first week or two, just to make sure that if any fungus/mildew grows on it I wipe it off with a dry paper towel and stick it in a other dry bag again.

    The bags I use over and over, fungus is killed when it gets dry, and preventing mildew and fungus from growing takes just that, drying, the spores are everywhere and will grew when conditions are right, wet and warm.

    This is a picture of dried White Ash bowls taken out of the paper bags to finish drying some more.
     

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  9. Mike Johnson

    Mike Johnson

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    You can always spend some time cutting and processing a number of wood blanks
    and bowl blanks. If you turn a number of green bowls and put them up to dry you will
    end up with a good supply of wood turning projects over time. You can build up a pretty
    good inventory of wood if you process a few pick-up loads of wood each year. Sooner or
    later you usually end up with more wood then you have time to turn.
     
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  10. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    If the soap was clear or light colored, then my guess would be that the wood molded. Maple does that a lot if you don't watch it. Any moisture with the sugars is great for mold to grow on. Up on a wire rack for me.

    For once turned bowls, the DNA soak does nothing except make the wood harder to sand out. No idea why it does this. No difference in drying time, warping, or cracking. With twice turned bowls, I don't know since I don't do them. I don't think the LDD soak was ever said to aid in the drying process. Ron Kent in Hawaii started using it on Norfolk Island Pine to combat all the pitch in that wood and the mess it made of your abrasives.

    The brown bag method works, but with the quantity of bowls I used to do, it just isn't practical. Best variation on that I heard of was from Christian Burshard who put madrone pieces in a paper bag, then put that inside a plastic bag. Change out the paper bag every day. Bags can be reused when they dry again.

    Dry too fast and you get cracks. Dry too slow and you get mold.

    robo hippy
     
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  11. Mike Johnson

    Mike Johnson

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    You could try spalting the bowl blanks, there are pure strains available or you can bury the
    bowl blanks in damp soil with spalted wood pieces to get the bowl blanks inoculated with the spores.
    There are a number of articles and books that have been written explaining the process.
    On a smaller scale you can use a plastic garbage bag with soil and wood pieces, add a little water
    and you have a perfect environment for the spalting mold spores to grow into the blank.

    Adding a little bleach to your detergent/water solution will help kill the mold spores from growing
    on your wood bowl blanks. Your freshly cut and soaked wood is a perfect growing/feeding opportunity
    for molds and bacteria. Killing these little bugs is usually done in curing/drying ovens in the lumber
    industry. Some of the commercial operations are now using microwave ovens to dry lumber with.
    When harvesting and processing your personal wood reserves for turning, you will need to take
    measures to protect the wood you don't want discolored by mold and bacteria. You have several
    options to sterilize your wood, heat and chemicals are the most common.
     
  12. olaf Vogel

    olaf Vogel

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    This is the only method that works for me - and I keep trying to push it to extremes.
    The only other thing to add is: dry the bowls as SLOOOOOWLY as possible.
    - cool areas
    - limited air flow
    - leave it for a LONG time.

    Thats not 100% guaranteed, but has a good success ratio.
    If you are impatience, just turn more bowls and add to the assembly line.
     
  13. odie

    odie

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    One notation about mold/mildew that I've noticed, is it usually starts at around 18-20% MC. Wetter than that, and it doesn't occur......dryer than that, and it doesn't occur either. I'm not sure if my particular climate has anything to do with it, but that's my findings.....o_O

    -----odie-----
     
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  14. Leo Van Der Loo

    Leo Van Der Loo

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    Odie the fungus/mildew whatever you call it, dies off if the moisture is lower than 20% for what studies have concluded, though how wet it can be I don’t know, the thing is though that the airborne spores land on everything and with wood the inside might well be more than say 30%, but the outside isn’t as wet and the Fungus will start to grow on the outside and moving in as it is able to stay alive, even under applied wood sealer or in a paper or plastic bags.

    Getting that % point down to below 20% as quick as possible without having the wood split is what we would like to do, as prolonging that high moisture contend gives the fungus time to do more rotting eating the wood and discolouring it.

    It is one of the reason’s I don’t seal the rough turned pieces but stick them in a paper bag, it works for me and dries the wood faster than having it sealed with anchor seal or other, I have tried that and it was not an improvement for me.

    Here are two pictures of a bunch of Applewood rough outs, the first have all been dried in brown paper bags, the next picture is of two more of that batch and the 5 pieces I had sealed and left to dry that way, they still where not dry at that point, while all the others were, and of course later I had to get rid of all that wax/grease.

    dry Apple bowls.jpg 5 sealed Apple bowls.jpg
     
  15. Raul McCai

    Raul McCai

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    I have been using pentacryl. Just rub or brush it on. I believe that it is liquid plastic that doesn't ever dry out. At least that's the best I can figure. I've set it out on metal and plastic to see if it had anything to evaporate or cure off and it seems not, so ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
    Then I turn the dried blank.

    Glen Lucas puts something on his first turning of bowls that appears to look like Gesso and then stacks them for drying with little other than sticks between the stacked blanks. I have not got even a tiny clue what he uses.
     
  16. olaf Vogel

    olaf Vogel

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    Personally, my experience with Pentacryl was poor. Expensive, multiple applications, and worst, a waxy layer to sand off. So I stopped using it.

    As for drying methods, there are SO many variables. climate, location, air flow, wood species etc. so you need to experiment with what works for your needs.
    IMO - there is no one universal solution.

    Just try to be systematic in your search for solutions. Non will be perfect, but look for higher ratios of success.

    and work your way up incrementally.
    I.e. don't jump to big bowls in a hurry.
     
  17. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Sounds like it might be Anchorseal.

    I tried Pentacryl about fifteen years ago ... never again.:(
     
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  18. Leo Van Der Loo

    Leo Van Der Loo

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    Yup the same experience here Bill, still have a partial container of it sitting, I don’t know why I haven’t thrown it out yet :confused:
     
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  19. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Same here. I recently found that I still have a partial bottle. It would be cruel to give it to an unsuspecting new turner and just as bad to send it to a landfill. :D
     
  20. John Tisdale

    John Tisdale

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    Take a hard look at http://www.woodturningvideosplus.com/boiling-green-wood.html. While I have no idea if large hollow-forms are more or less vulnerable, I can tell you this: Since starting the boiling routine (plain water) I haven't had one loss - best guess is that is about 30-hollowforms ago. I go from green (log slinging water) to 6% before I begin secondary turning. The only wood I don't boil is mesquite - it's super stable.
    You might also go to the Lignomat website and study Gene Wengerts: http://www.lignomatusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/DryingLumber.pdf. There are some datapoints there that are the same for both woodturners as well as commercial lumber mills.
    Sometimes guys seem to expect some process can influence warping - I have never found that to be so. A 20" dia walnut hollowform will go from round to 1.5" greater along the grain - if you don't allow for that in you thickness planning, I think the best term is SOL.
    Lastly and as Odie said in an earlier comment, don't get in a hurry. As per Dr, Wengert's paper, go slow until you get to 20%MC - after that you can be more aggressive.
     
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