Upgrading dust collection; could use some help

Discussion in 'Woodturning Health & Safety' started by Mark Hepburn, Dec 31, 2015.

  1. Mark Hepburn

    Mark Hepburn

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,170
    Location:
    Houma, Louisiana
    Hi Everyone.

    So, over the holidays I had a little spare time and started cleaning the shop in earnest. It's really two rooms; one is a "clean" or assembly room and the other is what I'm talking about here, which is where all the tools are. Pic posted.

    So I realized as I was cleaning the pounds of fine dust that a) my dust collector isn't cutting it and, b) I quit smoking for a reason and don't want to swap one carcinogen for another :D

    Anyway, that led to my researching until my eyes glazed over and my head hurt. Bill Pentz would wash his hands in exasperation because, although I've read and read, the practical application isn't sinking in. What has, however, is this: I'm ditching what I have and redoing. Currently I have a Grizzly cyclone with 4" PVC piping and flex hose machine couplings; a couple of Shop Fox fine particle filters and a larger Shop Fox hanging air cleaner. That I'm keeping. The smaller ones I moved to where I paint.

    I think that, for me, I'd like to have a system that simply exhausts the fines to the outside and that captures the chunkier stuff before it gets to the impeller. In other words, really no filtering. The nearest neighbor is over 140 yards away on any side and there's nobody to be bothered by the particulate. Also, I'm out in an area where there are no ordinances against the discharge. And, the shop, although connected to the house, is not conditioned and I would seal the doors to prevent pulling conditioned air out of the house. A make up air vent in the outside wall would seem to do the job; I'm in south Louisiana and temps are fine year-round.

    I want to go up to 5 hp but single phase, with 6" or possibly 8" main piping with reducers only at the machines that are ported for 4". So I'd put a reducer on the end of each drop to minimize any 4" bottlenecks. Also, I will be investing in automatic blast gates and using metal duct.

    I drew up a rough plan showing a rough idea. I did forget to include a floor sweep in the drawing but would probably like to have one at each end of the shop.

    Any opinion, expertise, or practical assistance would be most appreciated. For example, WHERE do I find a large impeller and housing, etc. Bill Pentz' site points to electricmotorwarehouse.com, which has a very nice Leeson for this purpose. I have buddies that do electrical for a living so the wiring isn't an issue. For me, it's gathering the parts and knowing how to proceed to assemble, etc.

    Thanks!

    shop.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2015
  2. Dean Center

    Dean Center

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    455
    Location:
    Bozeman, MT
    Marc,
    I have two thoughts.

    First, before you buy anything new, why don't you hook the exhaust on the collector you have now to the outside and see what happens? The decreased resistance might make enough difference to solve your problem at no cost.

    Second, PVC pipe as ducting has a lot of static electricity and a smallish internal diameter. You could try replacing the PVC with metal ducting to reduce the resistance to airflow some, and improve your through put. It might make enough difference to solve the problem, at modest cost.

    BTW, wood dust probably won't give you cancer. It would be more likely to cause chronic bronchitis and emphysema, neither of which is a good thing to have.
     
  3. Raul McCai

    Raul McCai

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2014
    Messages:
    416
    Location:
    nj
    Pentz is about right.

    If you haven't been to Felder's site and taken a good gander at the RL line you might consider looking at it. Nothing comes close. They are not cheap at about $4 – 5 K entry price but they are the only ones that do what they say they will do,
    http://www.felderusa.com/us-us/products/clean-air-dust-extractors.html


    About Ducting: No insurance company will cover a fire if their agents can claim that it may have been started by a spark in the Non-Metallic Dust Collection lines. I don’t intend to enter a dialog about the merits of this particular concern. The issue I want to point out is that Insurance companies won’t cover it if it is not metal and grounded. They won’t cover it if there is a grounding wire or metallic paint or anything else. They will only bless metal ducting with a ground strap.

    As to an impeller.
    Oh my~!!
    Even Onida is using a plastic impeller that blows up when it hits a chunk.
    There is no source that I’ve found ( and I’ve looked and looked) for a decent impeller.

    I was planning on building my own because of the ceiling height problem with most of the Cyclone units like Onida and ClearVue. However, I’ve decided to wait till I can get an RL.
     
  4. DanRoscigno

    DanRoscigno

    Joined:
    May 10, 2009
    Messages:
    8
    I just installed a clearvue cv1800. I am using the Wynn cartridge filters that they sell, but venting to the outside is better. I would look at this one:

    http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/cv1800-series/25-cv1800-lh-single-phase-no-filters.html

    See Stumpy Nubs' web site for a discount:

    http://www.stumpynubs.com/dust.html

    Discount code is nubs5

    Since you can get the wiring done yourself, don't spend the $250 on the optional electrical box, it is something you can do for about $25 yourself.

    6" Thin Wall Gravity Feed Sewer and Drain is cheap, easy, and works fine.
     
  5. Gerald Lawrence

    Gerald Lawrence

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2010
    Messages:
    718
    Location:
    Brandon, MS
    Your plan sounds good. The filter may be part of the problem. I switched to a pleated filter and increased pull considerably. Also someone here did a write up on putting a wok (yes cooking ) in the machine to create a vortex like Jet does. I will give you details if you need, This also helped pull dust into lower bag and decrease the fines in my vacum room. Oh, I have mine in the attic in a sealed room with a filter on the return air.
    I too wish I had the 6 inch return, just do not do enough flat work to justify the cost and climbing.
    Having fun back in LA in NO for the Sugar tomorrow.
     
  6. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2005
    Messages:
    8,120
    Location:
    Dalworthington Gardens, TX
    Home Page:
    I grew up in Houston and have been to south Louisiana so I know that "static electricity" is a foreign word because the air almost always fully saturated sometimes even more than 100% (yes, it is possible to have supersaturated air). However, just to avoid the remote possibility a a tiny electrostatic shock there is conductive PVC flex hose for the short runs from the DC system metal duct drop to machine exhaust port. If you want better dust collection at the machines, more horsepower isn't going to help a lot until you improve the machine dust collection. Most shop machines do a dismal job of this. SawStop is an exception ... tyey do an outstanding job of collecting dust. Almost all bandsaws have a DC port that is hardly more than decoration. It doesn't take much ingenuity to make a lot of improvement in the way that they work. I have a Delta stationary planer and Delta stationary jointer... they are OK when it comes to dust collection, but the bottom line is that there will still be plenty of dust that you can't capture with a DC system.

    I have some of the 2.5" conductive plastic hose on my shop vac. It's great to not get those defibrillating shocks.
     
  7. Ron Rutter

    Ron Rutter

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2010
    Messages:
    85
    Location:
    Port Alberni BC
    I built a cyclone based on Bill Pentz design info for our seniors WW shop.This was tied into a 3HP DC. I incorporated a drop box & made the cyclone outlet 10" instead of 8" dia. After 2 years there was only 2" of material in the DC bags. BUT, you have to remember to MT the drop box!!This also keeps larger chunks out of the impeller.
    If you are not paying to heat the air discharging to atmosphere is great otherwise the air passing through the DC just returns & does contain fines - if you have no neighbors to complain!! You can put the DC in a closed room with a filter bank to clean the returning air.
    In addition you could install an air cleaner. No matter what we do there are still the dangerous fines floating around.

    Protect yourselves folks. I am probably going to have to quit turning because of lung problems & I have about 500 blanks of 7 or 8 different woods that I was planning on playing with....
    By the way I feel the ramp in Bill's cyclone is the real secret.

    Ron.
     
  8. Mark Hepburn

    Mark Hepburn

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,170
    Location:
    Houma, Louisiana
    Dean, that's a good idea and I think that I'll try it out. If I sell the thing I'm sure to be losing a significant amount - if I can sell it. And I should have mentioned that I do intend to ditch all the plastic and purchase metal duct, blast gates, etc. That is a certainty. Another possibility is to keep that unit, duct outside and set it up for part of the tools - for example, just the lathes maybe.
     
  9. Mark Hepburn

    Mark Hepburn

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,170
    Location:
    Houma, Louisiana
    Raul,


    Just looked at the RL products. Talk about tool junkie candy! Reminds me of when I used to get motorcycle fever every spring and just HAD to buy another one. :D

    If I got the RL 300 it'd probably suck my dog up into the ducts (she hangs out in the shop with me; all 9 lbs).

    So no argument with you on the ducting. One of my significant take-aways from Bill Pentz is quality metal duct and fittings to reduce friction and, as you say, reduce the possibility of ignition.
     
  10. Mark Hepburn

    Mark Hepburn

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,170
    Location:
    Houma, Louisiana

    Hey Dan, Thanks for the links. I hadn't really looked at the Clearvue products before and they're pretty compelling. Comments about them are great and I like the fact that it uses a Leeson motor and has a larger impeller. Very small footprint too. I'd say it's an appealing option (but I confess that the Felder is what I'd go with if I had the ready funds).

    I also like that the ClearVue can be bought with no filters. So I can just vent it. The only thing I object to is the use of MDF. No way could that go outside but on the other had, it has a very small footprint and I could frame up a little closet for it with filters as Ron suggested, with filters for the return. This may be a very cost-effective solution if my Grizz isn't up to the task. It's rated at about 800 CFM with .5 micron pleated filter but I'm sure it's overstated. Not knocking Grizzly since I have several of their tools and they've been very good for years. Just sayin...
     
  11. Mark Hepburn

    Mark Hepburn

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,170
    Location:
    Houma, Louisiana

    Thanks Gerald. Yes, no shop work today. Bowl games for sure. I'm disappointed that LSU didn't have a better season but Ole Miss sure looks good. Superdome isn't a place of joy this year, what with the Saints "rebuilding" and the Tigers losing 3 in a row. But we'll be having a small bowl party and even a bad time is pretty good down here :D

    I wish I could put my DC in the attic, but alas, I'd have to open up the ceiling. If you can send the wok info I'd really like to see that. I didn't realize that Jet did anything like that. Bill Pentz did mention that Jet was among only 3 D.C. makers that properly sized their impellers.

    Have a great day yourself.
     
  12. Mark Hepburn

    Mark Hepburn

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,170
    Location:
    Houma, Louisiana
    Bill, I know what you mean about humidity. I'm not saying it's humid but I'm wearing a rebreather as I type this :).

    Seriously, the humidity has been so bad that it feels like a cold sauna if such a thing is possible. 70 degrees and the air sticks to you. But, like everyone is pointing out as you are, I'm still going to take it seriously now. I like the idea of conductive flex pipe for the last foot connection to the machines. I'm going to go 6" off the main down to the machine and so I expect to only use enough flex hose to connect the machinery, all of which has 4" ports. I built a huge hood around my miter saw. It's a Bosch axial 10" and it's a keeper. My shop is only 9' wide and this thing knocked a foot off the depth of my previous saw. Dust collection is about par for these things, meaning it's lousy, so lots of air around that thing for sure.

    Anyway, if you could point me to where you find the conductive PVC? I'm finding lots of sheet goods online and will continue to look but...
     
  13. Raul McCai

    Raul McCai

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2014
    Messages:
    416
    Location:
    nj
    Silicosis. In my industry there is a saying: "Silica - - - The NEW Asbestos~!!" It's going to make plaintiff's attorneys very very rich

    http://www.lung.org/lung-health-and...e-lookup/silicosis/learn-about-silicosis.html
     
  14. Mark Hepburn

    Mark Hepburn

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,170
    Location:
    Houma, Louisiana
    Yeah you're right, but probably not the plaintiffs. I read that link article and the stuff sounds nasty. Which actually just reinforces my decision to exhaust, rather than filter.
     
  15. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2005
    Messages:
    8,120
    Location:
    Dalworthington Gardens, TX
    Home Page:
    If you want 4" hose then click here for the hose that Rockler Hardware has. They also have 2.5" diameter hose for use with shop vacs. Up here in north Texas I don't get to enjoy the Gulf Coast air that I grew up feeling, tasting, and swimming in although I don't miss it in the summer. The bad thing here in the winter is that the relative humidity gets low and then I get knocked on my can by the static discharge from my shop vac hose. I always wondered why somebody didn't make conductive plastic hose since conductive plastic has been used for decades in the semiconductor business to package static sensitive integrated circuits. So far the conductive plastic hose has been great. It has some other advantages such as being much more flexible than the typical shop vac hose, heavier duty, and doesn't build up dust on the exterior of the hose.

    On your main metal ducts, bigger isn't necessarily better ... it's a balance between pressure loss due to aerodynamic drag in smaller diameter ducts and sufficient flow velocity in larger ducts. You want the flow velocity to be high enough that all of the material is carried all the way to the cyclone. If the duct diameter is too large then heavier stuff will drop out of the air stream and collect in the ducts usually at elbows. I think that for a shop like yours, six inch diameter would be fine, but I wouldn't go any larger than 8" for the main run. Keep in mind that increasing the horsepower of the motor doesn't increase the speed of air movement appreciably, because all the motors run at the same speed. A larger motor just means that the system can work with a larger impeller that has a slightly larger diameter. How many machines do you plan to run at once?

    BTW, wood dust or any dust will cause lung cancer. Too bad that some woodturners are still in denial. The finer the dust, the worse it is because it is able to get past all of the natural defense mechanisms in the body ... once it gets into the lungs, it is there for the remainder of your life. Most of the respiratory protection that woodturners use ignores this. A five micron mask is letting all of the really fine stuff pass right on through. A mask rated N95 is good, but a rating of N100 or P100 is far better.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2016
  16. olaf Vogel

    olaf Vogel

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2015
    Messages:
    198
    Location:
    Toronto, Ont, CA
    Home Page:
    Hi mark

    I'm in the same boat. I power sand a lot which generates clouds of dust. A few weekends ago it was inches of dust. And my 3 hp, 4" craftex didn't cut it at all.

    With some luck I found a General No4 blower that's massive, with 7.5 hp.
    This weekend I'll be running 10" duct work to the attic where the blower and cyclone will sit.

    My reading, and multiple rereading of Bill Pentz's site convinced me go for max air flow, not suction power.
    I'll be building my own cyclone (for the second time, the other still working and not worth moving)
    Honestly, building a cyclone is not hard, or expensive. Bill provides good guidelines. But it seems like most of the calculations are aimed at keeping dimensions so it fits in an 8' ceiling which isn't always optimal.

    The big challenged is recycling the air since the CFM rating will suck my shops air out in about 2 min and would making winter heating impossible.
    In the summer I'll vent outside like you suggested.

    A friend also just offered sheets of pvc they used to line walls at a pharmasutical firm, so those will become the dust shroud.

    Olaf
     
  17. Ron Rutter

    Ron Rutter

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2010
    Messages:
    85
    Location:
    Port Alberni BC
    I can't understand why manufacturers make the discharge outlets so small - e.g 4" on a table saw. It is the volume that picks up the fines not the speed ( which can cause tunneling).
    Mark, an 800 CFM unit is not really adequate for most situations.
    The Pentz designs require lots of headroom which probably means a side discharge drop box.

    Another thing people neglect to do is WASH the DC bags. They get blinded over restricting flow.

    Cheers & Happy New Year to all! Ron.
     
  18. Josh Stevens

    Josh Stevens

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2015
    Messages:
    25
    Location:
    Australia
    Actually the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) which is part of the World Health Organisation, classify wood dust as a Group 1 carcinogen which means it will cause cancer in humans. I'm pretty sure NIOSH have given it the same classification.
     
  19. Raul McCai

    Raul McCai

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2014
    Messages:
    416
    Location:
    nj
    Oh, I didn't say that. I've gone bleary eyed reading very well documented work that goes both ways on the topic and I am most certainly not an expert, but my area of expertise informs me about Insurance Company's universal and unwavering posture on the question of ducting.

    If they find out that an insured has non metallic DC ducts, they will rendition him to the Chechens or cancel his policy, whichever is cheaper.


    I haven't determined whether you need things like explosion vents too like the NFPA requires for industry, but If you get a written letter from your carrier ( or agent) that you don't need one, it's solid gold. Anyway always make a habit of re reading your policy declaration page for exclusions and bear in mind that the insurance company is not your friend they are the other side of a potentially costly argument.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2016
  20. Raul McCai

    Raul McCai

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2014
    Messages:
    416
    Location:
    nj

Share This Page