Alan Batty and Bill Jones Links

[Brian Deakin]

You may find the links below interesting
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Woodturners notes Alan Batty

https://goldturners.org/resources/Documents/Miscellaneous/woodturning_notes1.pdf

and this is the person Alan Batty thought was the best Thread chaser

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2G3LHZNiuU


Thread chasing notes

https://toolsforworkingwood.com/prodimg/ms/pdf/MS-THRDCH.pdf

Bill Jones books (there are 2 books)

Amazon.co.uk

further short videos

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bill+jones+woodturning

 

[Isaac Fisher]

Thanks! I never knew about the Bill Jones book. Hopefully I’ll have a copy on my bench soon

 

[Adrian Wilson]

You may find the links below interesting
***********


Woodturners notes Alan Batty

https://goldturners.org/resources/Documents/Miscellaneous/woodturning_notes1.pdf

and this is the person Alan Batty thought was the best Thread chaser

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2G3LHZNiuU


Thread chasing notes

https://toolsforworkingwood.com/prodimg/ms/pdf/MS-THRDCH.pdf

Bill Jones books (there are 2 books)

Amazon.co.uk

further short videos

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bill+jones+woodturning

I love the shop picture on the Bill Jones book; 'I know I have one somewhere, because I have at least one of everything'.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

The information about Bill Jones turning ivory is not good. And, that he quit doing it only when it became illegal is worse.

 

[Michael Anderson]

The information about Bill Jones turning ivory is not good. And, that he quit doing it only when it became illegal is worse.

I've been conflicted about that ever since I heard about Bill Jones. I think turning ivory by hand, especially pool balls, is pretty fascinating; however, ivory as a material is about as ethically unsound as you can get.

Edit: to be clear, I’m talking about the practice of turning ivory and not about Bill Jones.

 

[hockenbery]

@Doug Rasmussen @Michael Anderson
I’m very much an environmentalist but I try to avoid
presentism – the judging people of another time by the standards of today.

Last year Ken burns came out with a documentary - The American Buffalo. And Nicholas Cage starred in a movie - Butcher's Crossing. Two good insights to the use it up economics philosophy.

Museums used to seek out the last of a species, kill it, and preserve it for the science of future generations.

 

[Michael Anderson]

I’m very much an environmentalist but I try to avoid
presentism – the judging people of another time by the standards of today.

I agree.

 

[Bob Brown]

What happens when someone is upset because the magazine is called AMERICAN WOODTURNER.

 

[Michael Anderson]

What happens when someone is upset because the magazine is called AMERICAN WOODTURNER.

I don't get it?

 

[Bob Brown]

I don't get it?

Are you actually aware of how this got started? You do know that there was 2 prior videos and the complaint was on the first one. I and at least 2 others viewed it and the 3rd person found it offensive. I'm not here to fight about anything accept censorship because it could and should have been handled using the report option.

 

[Michael Anderson]

Are you actually aware of how this got started? You do know that there was 2 prior videos and the complaint was on the first one. I and at least 2 others viewed it and the 3rd person found it offensive. I'm not here to fight about anything accept censorship because it could and should have been handled using the report option.

Got it. I just wasn’t sure if you were making a joke that flew over my head. Partly because I’ve heard that complaint before, and the easy answer was that “it’s called American Woodturner because it’s the magazine of the American Association of Woodturners”.

And as an aside, I’m the one that deleted the comments. Not for the sake of censorship, but to get rid of superfluous comments that were related to a couple of video links that didn’t exist anymore (the original poster decided to delete the videos on his own accord). I didn’t even see the videos.

I agree with you about censorship though in general. And, I agree that the Report button exists for these situations. I just wanted to clarify that the now-missing content was not because of AAW forum Big Brother overextending its hand and censoring content.

 

[Bob Brown]

Just so you know, I've been a member since the mid-90s. My membership once expired while I was out of the country. Are you saying that deleting 2 videos and related comments isn't censorship I somewhat disagree, maybe you should check to find out who deleted them. However, this is the last I'll comment . A lot of thin skinned folks now a days.

 

[Michael Anderson]

Just so you know, I've been a member since the mid-90s. My membership once expired while I was out of the country. Are you saying that deleting 2 videos and related comments isn't censorship I somewhat disagree, maybe you should check to find out who deleted them. However, this is the last I'll comment . A lot of thin skinned folks now a days.

That’s pretty cool you’ve been a member for so long. I’m envious.

And, that’s not what I said at all.

 

[Gabriel Hoff]

The person who deleted the videos is the same person who POSTED the videos!! The comments would have looked out of place with no videos to reference.

 

[Bob Brown]

That’s pretty cool you’ve been a member for so long. I’m envious.

And, that’s not what I said at all.

Don't be, that means I'm old. And the last couple years haven't been fun medically speaking.

 

[Asher Langton]

Just so you know, I've been a member since the mid-90s. My membership once expired while I was out of the country. Are you saying that deleting 2 videos and related comments isn't censorship I somewhat disagree, maybe you should check to find out who deleted them. However, this is the last I'll comment . A lot of thin skinned folks now a days.

I didn't see anyone call for the video links to be deleted, just that some things said in the video are no longer considered acceptable. I can't speak for the Battys, but I've said a lot of things I regret over the years, and if such comments had been immortalized on video, I'd personally be happier if those videos were no longer shared.

 

[Michael Anderson]

Don't be, that means I'm old. And the last couple years haven't been fun medically speaking.

Fair enough. I guess it’s all relative, but man to be a turner throughout the 90s! What a heyday.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

I've been conflicted about that ever since I heard about Bill Jones. I think turning ivory by hand, especially pool balls, is pretty fascinating; however, ivory as a material is about as ethically unsound as you can get.

Read his two books and inform yourself about Bill. He would buy the scraps of Ivory, there was a time that Ivory was legal, not his fault that now is not. His greatness would not be diminished one bit because of it.

 

[Michael Anderson]

Read his two books and inform yourself about Bill. He would buy the scraps of Ivory, there was a time that Ivory was legal, not his fault that now is not. His greatness would not be diminished one bit because of it.

I wasn’t clear with what I was trying to say. I was strictly talking about the material itself. I’m conflicted because the idea of turning real ivory is interesting. BUT, whenever I watch videos or read about it, I can’t help but associate the material itself with the atrocities committed when sourcing the material.

I didn’t mean to say anything against Bill. He was a brilliant turner, and operated within the law. I can’t and won’t speak on what he knew and didn’t know. I haven’t read Bill’s books, but I’ll put them on the list.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

I’m very much an environmentalist but I try to avoid
presentism – the judging people of another time by the standards of today.

I don't know the exact timeline of the Bill Jones video. He died in 2011. The United States banned ivory trade in 2016, England was a bit later I believe. I was wrong in saying he quit turning ivory only when it was illegal since he died before it was illegal.

I became aware of the awfulness of the ivory trade well before those times, maybe as early as 1985. I made some ebony display bases for a lady in Seattle with quantities of ivory. Her father had brought it into the country prior to 1960 when apparently it was legal to deal in it. The lady kept a low profile while selling it and I know a few woodturners bought from her. I wanted nothing to do with her ivory. There was a bit of a problem having ivory from her because it could be confiscated unless you could provide documentary proof it was imported prior to 1960. That's about all I knew about the ivory situation back in the 1980's.

Somewhere along in the early 2000's I found out about a warehouse in Seattle with a number of router copy machines using a stylus so the operator could trace over a pattern to make multiples of small ivory pieces. That was setup by the father of the lady above. In later years they produced scrimshaw pieces of walrus ivory for the Alaskan tourist trade. The scrimshaw pieces may have been a problem after it became against the law to produce native American art unless you were native American.

Being known as the "ivory turner" Bill Jones certainly must have known and been well aware of the issues with ivory much prior to it being illegal. In the video he mentioned how expensive ivory was.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

Read his two books and inform yourself about Bill. He would buy the scraps of Ivory, there was a time that Ivory was legal, not his fault that now is not. His greatness would not be diminished one bit because of it.

I don't buy that explanation. The pieces shown in the video are far from scraps, I've seen buckets of ivory scrap from Seattle's "ivory lady", it'd be hard to find pieces big enough to inlay small dots to embellish a turning. Even using scraps promotes poaching. Maybe you know more about Bill Jones, what was his greatness?

 

[Brian Deakin]

I posted the videos then deleted them I never intended to cause any offence
I agree with comments
I’m very much an environmentalist but I try to avoid
presentism – the judging people of another time by the standards of today

I was not not comfortable with deleting the videos

I take the view

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone. Only those who are faultless have the right to pass judgment upon others (implying that no one is faultless and that, therefore, no one has such a right to pass judgment).

Alan Batty said Bill Jones was the best thread turner he had ever seen So to answer Dougs question Bill was probably the best thread turner in the world
Please see link below

Ornamental Turning - Information Age Turner: Bill Jones

Ornamental Turning - Information Age Turner: Bill Jones​ OrnamentalTurning.net provides a unique and comprehensive resource detailing the practitioners and toolmakers of...

Also should we also abandon Negative rake scapping as it was first used for ivory snooker balls

 

[Brian Deakin]

Bill was a 5th generation turner and had been a turner since 1931 Bill would have retired from work in 1985

He was an Ivory turner so it follows he would have a stock of Ivory and know where to obtain it What he would regard as scaps of ivory would be different to other peoples views

Bills family had been turning for 5 generations So his family started turning about 200 years ago

Bill died 7 years before the Ivory act was introduced in the uk


The Ivory Act 2018 UK

The Act does not apply to ivory items that you own if you have no intention to deal in them.

What you can do with ivory that is not exempt​

If you own ivory that is not exempt, you can:

• keep it for personal use
• give it away as a gift
• leave it to someone in your will
• lend it - provided that no payment, exchange or barter is involved

You cannot sell or hire out any ivory you own that has not been registered or certified under any circumstances. If you’re involved in arranging or facilitating an illegal sale, purchase or hire, you will be committing an offence under the Ivory Act 2018.

So if Bill was alive today he could still legally turn the ivory he owned

 

[Richard Findley]

I’ve attached a couple of pictures of Bill Jones’ thoughts on using Ivory. Hopefully they’re readable. They are from his book ’Notes From The Turning Shop’. I don’t know what the Ivory trade was like in his lifetime but he seems to think what he did buy came from ‘reputable sources’ ie: not poachers!

I’m not condoning Ivory use but you can’t judge someone who knew nothing other than being a ‘Hardwood and Ivory Turner’ his entire life and before. Just an interesting insight into this aspect of the woodturning trade.

Richard