Alan Lacer's article

[Mike Gould]

I just read Alan Lacers HSS steel article in the latest Journal.

Alan seems to start the article off great. But about 1/2 way the content seems to change and the information dries up. It seems like it had something missing. Like whole sections were cut out of it.

I was really interested in learning something about the different steels and what the benefits of each are to us turners. The article left me wanting more. I seemed to miss what the point of the article was and what it concluded.

Maybe it is just me?

What say you guys?

---Nailer---

 

[Gordon Seto]

I am disappointed somewhat with the article, it failed to include some of the popular choices such as, Henry Taylor, Crown, Glaser, Thompson, Oneway Mastercut, Crown ProPM, P&N, Ashley Iles and different grades of Hamlet.
I am also disappointed they didn't take more than 1 sample on what they tested, at least in the hardness tests.

I am no expert in tool steel or tool making. I believe the hardness is the result of heat treating. I think some tools from China are not heat treated in a strictly controlled environment. It depends on the experience of the tool makers to heat and hold the steel to a certain temperature and quenching. As a result some batches may be too hard, some not hard enough.

I also know certain tools are not heat treated all the way, only the tip is heat treated. I want to know how far down the flute is still hard enough to use.

I think this may be a great subject for some university material testing lab research.

 

[Malcolm Smith]

I think the problem here is that the testing is an elaborate procedure that destroys the tools being tested. Ultimately, tools that carry the name of a reputable manufacturer is about all one can go by. Bargain tools are not worth buying for someone who intends to give them much use.

Malcolm Smith.

 

[Steve Worcester]

well, it may have to do with the cost of acquiring the tool and the cost per test. Alan is a wood turner, not a philanthropist.

 

[john lucas]

I believe he mentioned the cost and it was pretty high. I am also very interested in this info. They are having a special interest night at the symposium and I may go but I'm also very interested in the ornamental turning .
I think many tools are heat treated over their full length. The heat treating process for HSS is pretty complicated and I think they usually put the whole tool in the over. I'm not an expert on this however. I know some of the old tools were only heat treated near the tip. I'm not sure why this was done. Possibly to make the tang tougher by not making it brittle with the heat treating.

 

[KEW]

I think the problem here is that the testing is an elaborate procedure that destroys the tools being tested.
Malcolm Smith.

What type of testing was done? I remember hardness testing in the article, but I wouldn't consider a hardness test destructive from the standpoint of preventing use of a gouge.

I'll have to admit I skimmed the article - just haven't had a good chance to sit down with it. I was disappointed that for the Harbor Freight gouges were not identified. I know they sell at least 3 HSS sets and do not claim them to be from the same manufacturer.

 

[Doug Thompson]

In a single article it's tough to cover everything, hopefully another will follow and as you said this does identify the steel used to manufacture each brand shown. The Packard brand should have been M2 so we could see what Hamlet produces (not 2060) this way we could compare the Sorby M2 and Hamlet M2, both Sheffield steel.

At the symposium's special interest night (Friday 7:30 pm) Jim Staley will speak about wear testing that was done this spring at the University of North Carolina, this will give us more information. You know where I'll be at 7:30.

The article gives one example how HSS can be heat treated and a tool done this way will be hardened from end to end. Some tools the flute is hardened and the shank is left soft, this is done with a induction heater in a matter of seconds. This is what bothers me... I read the shank is left soft for safety but these are the tools that bend and break. I would like to see a shear test done on all the tools... at the shank not up by the flute.

BTW - I do understand the little guy has to try harder to get a mention in the magazine... give it time... one day it will happen.

 

[Bill Grumbine]

BTW - I do understand the little guy has to try harder to get a mention in the magazine... give it time... one day it will happen.

Yeah, but the magazine isn't the only place things happen, so "little guys" can still do well, even when they aren't backed by magazine articles. You know whose tools I recommend everywhere I go. I'll look forward to seeing you in Richmond!

 

[Gordon Seto]

There should be more than steel alone. No doubt better steel provides more wear resistance, more turning and less sharpening. But an inferior shaped flute would cause clogging or chattering.
When I examined the flutes, I noticed the slight difference, but never thought the difference would be so dramatic. May be all the gouges are sharpened to an angle which is deceiving.

I made a wax mold of each flute; I then used a hand plane to get rid of the overfill. I scanned them on the flat bed scanner and enlarged them 200%. I was surprised that the scanned images have a 3-D effect.

We are all taking about "U" and "V" flutes. But from the pictures, there are variation in flute depth and it is hard to define "U" and "V". Some are hybrids.

If you look at the 1/2" and 5/8" (I am using American Standard here) Crown Pro-PM, the 1/2" is definitely one of the tightest "V" flute gouge, but the 5/8" is one of wider "U".
I don't think I am qualified to give expert opinion that which is better than which. One of the major complaint about the Glaser tool is the "V" flute tends to clog. On the other extreme is a spindle gouge which is the most open flute gouge. We don't want to use it for side grain bowl turning, so there must be a happy medium in the middle.
I want to do my part and provide some raw pictures of flute cross sections. There are more than difference in steel. I believe with the difference in flute, we can't get the same grind even with identical grinding jig settings.

I borrow the 5/8" V gouge from Doug Thompson to do this project. What I had was an early production of the Thompson gouge, I knew he has made some changes in flute design. He has made the flute more open and decreased the depth of the flute. Since mine is no longer available, it would be better to do on the current production.
All my other gouges are more than 2 years old, they may not reflect the current gouges.
After I have done that, I think I should have included the Thompson "U" gouge, I borrowed one from Doug at today's slub meeting. I am going to post the casting when I am done.
Due to the photo size upload limitation on this Forum, it is difficult to see the details. I have posted larger pictures here:
http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/turning3.pl?frames;read=185334#185334

Gordon

 

[Doug Thompson]

Yeah, but the magazine isn't the only place things happen, so "little guys" can still do well, even when they aren't backed by magazine articles. You know whose tools I recommend everywhere I go. I'll look forward to seeing you in Richmond!

Bill, you are right... I am thankful that the big guys are willing to help the little guy. Think about it that statement can be taken two different ways... either way it's the truth.

See you in Richmond.

 

[Malcolm Smith]

A consideration in this is will a tool snap when one has a catch. The smaller Glaser gouges were not made in the black series for this reason. There are industrial drills that are specifically intended for drill presses, not hand drills. They are harder steel and break more easily.

Malcolm Smith

 

[Doug Thompson]

I look at more from the stand point of a bolt (drill bits are brittle) a hardened bolt has a higher tensile strength then a unhardened bolt therefore a higher shear strength.

You are right the black handle wasn't made in a 3/8 diameter I assume because of breakage.

Testing is to expensive to be done, Jim Staley has the resources to let college students do all the testing which is great for us. My informal tests a long time ago was nothing but abusing a small diameter tool on a large diameter blank which means nothing. I figured by this time one tool would come back bent or broken, knock on wood nothing has come back.

 

[Malcolm Smith]

I haven't had it happen but would think a breaking tool could be quite dangerous. The forces are considerably.

Malcolm Smith.

 

[Rob Wallace]

Why don't we start a research grant program for the AAW?

well, it may have to do with the cost of acquiring the tool and the cost per test. Alan is a wood turner, not a philanthropist.

I agree Steve!

Why can't the AAW develop a research grant program to allow small amounts of AAW funds (from the EOG line, or from other sources) to be spent on small research projects like this which would have significant benefits to the WHOLE woodturning community?

I have served on research committees of several botanical organizations where grant proposals are submitted and reviewed for specific projects, and research funds are awarded on a competitive basis, based on merit of the proposed project as reviewed by a panel of individuals serving as a proposal review team. Although huge amounts of money are likely not available from AAW coffers, at least SOME funds could have been made available (approved by the Board following recommendations for funding by a research committee) that could have supported more complete (and replicate) testing than was included in Alan's article.

For the past few years, I have had several 'turning research' projects in mind to work on from a 'scientific' standpoint, such as quantification of color shifts in wood during 'aging' (e.g. photosensitive woods; purpleheart, cherry, mahogany, etc.), scanning electron microscopy of wood surfaces of various species under different sanding regimes, etc. that could potentially help with turning technique, abrasive use efficiency, and better understanding of some of the variables involved with finishing etc. Such projects do require some modest funding. Perhaps the AAW could direct some of its funds in these directions to help in improving techniques and a better understanding of many of the central procedures that are shared by ALL woodturners, such as the study that Alan Lacer did on tool steels?

Something for the AAW Board or membership to consider....???

Rob Wallace

 

[hockenbery]

Rob I think your proposal has merit. In that it would add something to the knowledge base of woodturning.

1 you might bring this up at the membership meeting in Richmond Sunday Morning.

2 these types of activities need people to manage them. A board member may be willing.


There is not any extra money. With the economy as it is we may not grow membership as much as we did last year.
Most of the expenditures the board approves are those that are offset but some income. Videos, books, etc.
A plan with a sponsor ie a company or individual willing to fund would be an easy sell.

I think the bottom line is: will there be any impact on the world of woodturning? Quality tools work well will knowing what they are made of improve our decision making or out results?

Happy TURNING

Al

 

[Malcolm Smith]

There's really not much point in testing a lot of lower priced tools as the type and quality of steel is likely to change. An obvious aspect of hardening is the production of a consistent result, something that's difficult to achieve and nothing on the label will make a claim as to hardness. Again, one is better off buying more expensive tools from a manufacturer with a good reputation. If they are what they are represented to be, they will work a lot better and a lot less time will be spent sharpening. Not much money is saved by buying inexpensive tools as they don't last as long.

Malcolm Smith.

 

[KEW]

Within the current grant system, would it be possible for an individual to apply for an educational opportunity grant to study some relevant aspect of tools such as flute shape or material properties?
In a way, this is making the educational grant into a research grant, but that is splitting hairs. Any well thought-out research is pretty much inherently educational as long as it is presented.

 

[Angelo]

Grant

Personally I think it is a great subject for a grant application!

There is a lot of mystery surrounding why the shapes of the flutes are the way they are. A good objective evaluation aginst the design criteria would go a long way to clearing up the mystery.

This is only my opinion, but if you don't apply for a grant you will never know if it is worthy. Worse yet someone else may beat you to the punch!

A

 

[MichaelMouse]

Within the current grant system, would it be possible for an individual to apply for an educational opportunity grant to study some relevant aspect of tools such as flute shape or material properties?
In a way, this is making the educational grant into a research grant, but that is splitting hairs. Any well thought-out research is pretty much inherently educational as long as it is presented.

Flutes and grinds are subjective. If turner X holds his brand A gouge at a different angle than turner Y, it's no big deal, because odds on they grind them at different angles. Or use different centerline heights or different toolrest angles....

Of course, sample size would make the objective testing prohibitively expensive, unless manufacturers could be persuaded to submit twenty random samples (!) of each of their tools for testing. You'd almost think that the standards for the grade of steel and the tests made to qualify would level the field a bunch. Aren't the flutes ground into steel which is already heat-treated in the billet?

Neat idea, but not going to change a thing, based on what you read in all the forums and usenet groups. Most common question of all is "where can I get it cheaper", with a close second of "is it as good as...."

Whose was that famous quote, Ruskin?
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey. "

Though at times it may seem at odds with another. " A thing is worth what it can do for you, not what you choose to pay for it."

 

[KEW]

Worse yet someone else may beat you to the punch!

A

LOL, if you are talking to me, you got the wrong guy. I'd love to do something like this after I retire and my daughter is out of the house and I've organized my shop and I've finished the honey-do list and.....

 

[Steve Worcester]

There's really not much point in testing a lot of lower priced tools as the type and quality of steel is likely to change. An obvious aspect of hardening is the production of a consistent result, something that's difficult to achieve and nothing on the label will make a claim as to hardness. Again, one is better off buying more expensive tools from a manufacturer with a good reputation. If they are what they are represented to be, they will work a lot better and a lot less time will be spent sharpening. Not much money is saved by buying inexpensive tools as they don't last as long.

Malcolm Smith.

This is where I would recommend you check out better quality tools, like the (Doug) Thompson tools (little man) which are CPM V10 PM steel with cryogenic tempering. Yes, I own several with more on my list of tools to buy.
http://www.thompsonlathetools.com/

 

[Doug Thompson]

Personally I think it is a great subject for a grant application!

There is a lot of mystery surrounding why the shapes of the flutes are the way they are. A good objective evaluation aginst the design criteria would go a long way to clearing up the mystery.

This is only my opinion, but if you don't apply for a grant you will never know if it is worthy. Worse yet someone else may beat you to the punch!

A

It could start with a simple cross section of each flute shape sold today, then sorted by shape, parabolic, V and U. If printed in the magazine it would be a good reference, I'm sure manufactures would donate tools than can be cut on a saw. I'll donate at the drop of a hat... hope that hat is not made of wood.

 

[George Guadiane]

It could start with a simple cross section of each flute shape sold today, then sorted by shape, parabolic, V and U. If printed in the magazine it would be a good reference, I'm sure manufactures would donate tools than can be cut on a saw. I'll donate at the drop of a hat... hope that hat is not made of wood.

Hey Doug,
I'm starting a wood turning magazine. One of the many topics I want to tackle first is how to evaluate and value tools for wood turners. The article will be deep and thorough, it could take a decade or more to complete (assuming I don't die first), and will most certainly favor those tool makers who get their product in for testing at the earliest possible time...
I will need a complete range of sizes, flutes and grinds to insure a "fair and balanced" review.
PM me for shipping instructions:cool2:

 

[Gordon Seto]

If printed in the magazine it would be a good reference, I'm sure manufactures would donate tools than can be cut on a saw. I'll donate at the drop of a hat... hope that hat is not made of wood.

In order to get true sample representing a brand, I favor buying the testing tools anonymously.
I want to avoid some manufacturers donating other manufacturer's tools with their own handles as their brand of tools.
The lab may take a small sample from the tip of the tool for analysis, I am sure AAW can find a good cause for the tools after testing.

 

[Doug Thompson]

Gordon is right, to change steel or send the best would be very easy to do.

George, to do a proper test it will require at least one of each tool and a thousand blanks... even then you might be undecided... you might need to run the test again.

 

[john lucas]

Although I am a tool nut and like a good quality tool as well as anybody I think spending a lot of money testing the steels for the average wood turner is useless. I still have a carbon steel spindle gouge that I use when it's the right tool to use because quite frankly it works well. I also have one of the Thompson spindle gouges in the same size but I've ground it differrently. I do like the Thompson gouge and it holds an edge much longer and is quite pleasurable to use. However if you took away those gouges and left me with the older tools I have I would still turn the same work.
My favorite parting tool is a 3/16" carbon steel diamond point tool. I have looked at the HSS versions and just can't make myself spend $60 on a tool that is in my opinion only marginally better for what it is intended to do. Now if I was making 900 honey dippers and using the tool constantly where the sharpening time would be a consideration then I might buy the new one.

 

[George Guadiane]

Gordon is right, to change steel or send the best would be very easy to do.

George, to do a proper test it will require at least one of each tool and a thousand blanks... even then you might be undecided... you might need to run the test again.

I see that you understand the importance of thorough testing!
I eagerly await your PM so that we can get started...


ORrrrrrr,

We can wait a few more weeks, till some of the checks I am holding clear and I will just buy a few pieces (to start)
G

 

[George Guadiane]

Although I am a tool nut and like a good quality tool as well as anybody I think spending a lot of money testing the steels for the average wood turner is useless. I still have a carbon steel spindle gouge that I use when it's the right tool to use because quite frankly it works well. I also have one of the Thompson spindle gouges in the same size but I've ground it differrently. I do like the Thompson gouge and it holds an edge much longer and is quite pleasurable to use. However if you took away those gouges and left me with the older tools I have I would still turn the same work.
My favorite parting tool is a 3/16" carbon steel diamond point tool. I have looked at the HSS versions and just can't make myself spend $60 on a tool that is in my opinion only marginally better for what it is intended to do. Now if I was making 900 honey dippers and using the tool constantly where the sharpening time would be a consideration then I might buy the new one.

I have several of the older Sorby Kangaroo carbon steel scrapers. I also have an old 2 1/2 inch wide 3/8 thick roughing gouge (with a split handle) and a few other OLD carbon steel tools that I use all the time (along with my few HSS tools. I REALLY like them, and use them quite a bit. Same thing, they don't stay sharp as long, but they were massive, cheap for their quality when I got them (eBay and garage sales) and worth the effort till my ship comes in, docks, unloads it's precious cargo and gets out of the way so that the tool ship can move in.
I find that I don't mind grinding the carbon steel things into new shapes, because they are so inexpensive to start with.,, Now that I have been doing this for a few years and see a pattern in the grinds that I use most often, I can get into the GOOD (Thompson) tools and not be afraid of what I might do to ruin them.

 

[Gordon Seto]

I think spending a lot of money testing the steels for the average wood turner is useless.

If it is not done through testing, we won't know some tools were made from HSS for bearing that doesn't has the wear resistance property we want. Not that I am going to buy more tools, but I still want to know whether an inexpensive tool is a good value or we got what we paid it for.

I agree the information is useless for those who already have more tools than they will ever use and not in the market for tools.

I believe an un-bias report would force the mediocre tool to stay at a low price or improve their quality. The high end tools are already at the level that the market would bear. If they keep raising their price, they would loss market share to the bargain brand that the quality is not too far behind. Let the tool manufacturers spend their money on research, quality rather than hype and advertising.

 

[KEW]

Hey Doug,
I'm starting a wood turning magazine. One of the many topics I want to tackle first is how to evaluate and value tools for wood turners. The article will be deep and thorough, it could take a decade or more to complete (assuming I don't die first), and will most certainly favor those tool makers who get their product in for testing at the earliest possible time...
I will need a complete range of sizes, flutes and grinds to insure a "fair and balanced" review.
PM me for shipping instructions:cool2:

Yeah! Me too!

 

[Malcolm Smith]

Hey Doug,
I'm starting a wood turning magazine. One of the many topics I want to tackle first is how to evaluate and value tools for wood turners. The article will be deep and thorough, it could take a decade or more to complete (assuming I don't die first), and will most certainly favor those tool makers who get their product in for testing at the earliest possible time...
I will need a complete range of sizes, flutes and grinds to insure a "fair and balanced" review.
PM me for shipping instructions:cool2:

It's really the market place that tests and evaluates tools. A lot of us bought Glaser tools despite the cost. Others prefer older tools made of softer lower quality steel. The flute design is something we have different opinions about and different preferences. Some turners prefer lighter tools and some heavier. The woods being turned and sharpening methods are major factors. Anyone who questions this should compare what is on the market today compared with ten years ago.

Provided reasons for preferences are given, this forum is a very ideal source of information and opinions regarding the tools that are on the market.

Malcolm Smith.

 

[waltben]

I haven't had it happen but would think a breaking tool could be quite dangerous. The forces are considerably.

Malcolm Smith.

I had a Crown heavy duty bowl scraper break on me many years ago. I've no idea why it broke (no catch or anything obvious), but it broke completely off at the tang, where it narrowed down for the handle. It spun around inside the bowl I was working on and hit the back of my hand before landing on the floor. Didn't do much damage (thank the turning gods for that!), but I almost had to go change my clothes afterwards. I returned the two pieces to where I bought it to get my money back, but haven't heard if anyone ran tests on it or not. All in all, one of the reasons I don't use scrapers any more.

 

[Marc Ruby]

Call Me Mr. Average

In fact, I'd be pretty happy if I was considered average on most days. There was a time when it was very important to me what steel I was trying to sharpen, because I was heavy-handed to the point of embarassment. These days I can sharpen anything without it turning blue. For sure there are tools I sharpen more often than others but they will gradually obsolete themselves as they get worn away.

What's really important to me now is shape. There's a world of difference between that first big roughing cut inside a bowl and that last delicate shaving. You know, the one that I used to make with the same gouge and have now figured out that, if I want to reduce the number of deadly catches needs to be a carefully tuned tool. Used by a carefully tuned turner as well.

My suspicion is most of the money I've spent on the latest and greatest gouge or scraper would have been better spent on wood. And that I would be best off learning how to sharpen and shape a few tools really, really well.

 

[Malcolm Smith]

I had a Crown heavy duty bowl scraper break on me many years ago. I've no idea why it broke (no catch or anything obvious), but it broke completely off at the tang, where it narrowed down for the handle. It spun around inside the bowl I was working on and hit the back of my hand before landing on the floor. Didn't do much damage (thank the turning gods for that!), but I almost had to go change my clothes afterwards. I returned the two pieces to where I bought it to get my money back, but haven't heard if anyone ran tests on it or not. All in all, one of the reasons I don't use scrapers any more.

It's usually roughing gouges that break at the handle and can cause severe injury. I don't know why they continue to make them.

Malcolm Smith.

 

[KEW]

Provided reasons for preferences are given, this forum is a very ideal source of information and opinions regarding the tools that are on the market.

Malcolm Smith.

I agree, but I think you are actually making a case for testing.
Often the reason for preferences given are "it works for me" or "this is what I like". I cannot recall seeing much at all where a specific, concrete reason was given for preferring a tool due to flute shape until Doug Thompson aggravated everyone by making them figure out if they wanted a V or U shaped gouge!
I have some gouges I reach for more than others. If I had Gordon's profiles for my gouges, it could very well help me understand why I prefer the gouges I do. This, in turn, would help me buy my next gouge.

 

[KEW]

It's usually roughing gouges that break at the handle and can cause severe injury. I don't know why they continue to make them.

Malcolm Smith.

Not all roughing gouges are created equal:

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/gbseto/b4ca8d11.jpg

 

[Angelo]

Gouges

The two gouges shown in the photo are P & N (Patience & Nichols, I think) from New Zealand or Australia.

Excellent tools. but they are SPINDLE roughing gouges!

They are not bowl tools!

If you want a bowl roughing gouge try one of Thompson's or Crown's 1" bowl gouges. I have 2 Crown 1" bowl gouges. Each are ground differently for different purposes. One has a fingernail grind......well more accuratley a thumbnail shape and the other with a nearly out of the box square end grind. excellent for roughing out stock or taking that last sweeping cut with a long overhang on the tool rest. They have a 1 " dia tang that goes into the handle. This is a safe tool to rough bowl blanks.

It is dangerous to use a SPINDLE roughing gouge to rough a bowl blank.

See the Article in American Woodturner by Alan Lacer.

A

 

[Doug Thompson]

The two gouges shown in the photo are P & N (Patience & Nichols, I think) from New Zealand or Australia.


A

The bottom tool in the picture is a P&N but the top is how I think a shank on a SPINDLE roughing gouge should be... a full 3/4 inches. The P&N is a very good tool, with the 1/2 shank it's stronger than a flat tang. Like Angelo just said DO NOT use a spindle roughing gouge on a bowl! They will break!

Flute shape does matter, the most basic shape is the SRG. It works well because of the large radius that can be rolled to change the cutting angle. This is the same flute which is also used on our spindle and detail gouges. If I made the flute deeper on a U shape bowl gouge it would turn into a SRG. That's just one example, other flute shapes have a place on the tool rack for different reasons.

Who ever said a scraper had to be made from flat stock, a scraper made from round stock works very well inside a bowl. There are many ideas that need to be tested but basic shapes seem to work the best.

 

[Bill Grumbine]

I've been reading through here, and I have to say, as much as this might ruffle feathers (like I worry about that!), that a lot of time and money could be dedicated to testing tools without a lot of result. Once you get past the composition of the steel, which is fairly objective, everything becomes subjective. I've handled hundreds of gouges with various grinds and different geometries. My philosophy on gouges is showing people how to use what they already have, but offering them my own to compare.

Different types of steel and different geometries offer different handling properties, just like different tires on cars or trucks. And in the hands of different people, the same tool will perform differently. I alluded to this in an earlier post, so I will say it right out - I love my Thompson tools. I think they have great steel in them, and the geometries work very well for the way I like to turn. A number of people on this forum have seen them in action and know the things they are capable of doing. But that doesn't mean that other tools don't work, or that someone can't turn a good bowl or table leg with a different tool. A good turner can pick up just about any tool and make it cut well. A beginner turner often looks for the latest and greatest tool/grind/technique that is going to cure all his or her problems.

I say learn to use what you have, and then buy what you like. I will not change a grind on someone else's tool until they have used mine for a while to be sure they like my style. And as much as I like and recommend Doug's tools, he grinds them a little differently than I do, and others who use them grind them still differently. So where does the influence tool end and the individuality of the turner begin? Steel quality aside, I think the individual turner has more influence than the tool itself, so testing a bunch of tools for anything other than steel quality is going to be tilting at windmills.

 

[Gordon Seto]

Not all roughing gouges are created equal:

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/gbseto/b4ca8d11.jpg

I took that picture.

The top one is the Thompson SRG, it has a 3/4" shank, it is made out of A-11 steel.

The bottom one is the 1¼" P&N SRG, the shank is reduced to 1/2". I don't understand why it has to be reduced that much.

As far as I know, these are the only SRG that have round shanks instead of tiny flat tangs.

A good tool has to be well designed in addition to having good steel.

Gordon