CA glue?

[Charlie Harley]

I've seen "CA glue" mentioned quite a few times here and in other turning forums. I understand it's referring to cyanoacrylate adhesive, commonly sold as Super Glue.

Honestly, I've never used it in wood projects. It's always been kept in the junk drawer and used to fix the kids' toys or a broken mug.

What are its uses in turning?

What is the "hardener" I've heard referenced?

Are some CA glues better for woodworking than others?

All advice is glady accepted.

 

[Brodie Brickey]

DA Glue

CA Glue is used in wood turning for a number of things.

• Filling cracks and checks in a bowl
• Filling cracks with coffee grounds or sawdust in a bowl and applying CA Glue can create contrasts or completely hide the crack.
• adhering bark back onto the bowl
• hardening punky wood to get a smooth final pass before sanding.
• Its also used as a finish on pens because it creates a glass like finish and can be buffed to a high polish.
• I've seen some turners cover a bowl in CA Glue as a first coat before applying a poly (I don't recommend it if for cost alone.)

The hardener just causes the CA Glue to set up faster. Stores like Woodcraft and Rockler sell larger bottles of the CA Glue (others on the web can get you a better price) for woodturners than you see in the normal stores.

CA comes in thin, medium and thick consistencies depending on whethere you want to penetrate deeply into the crack or not.

Punky wood can also be stiffened up by a 1/2 & 1/2 mixture of white elmers glue and water that some turners have had very good success with.

WARNINGS:
CA Glue does require good ventilation. You should at least have a fan blowing over the area while using it. The fumes can really mess you up.

Hope this helps,

Brodie

 

[DeanGThomas]

Don't forget that CA is also available in black, not just clear.

There are also dealers selling a so-called rubberized version of CA that evidently is not quite as brittle. No experience with it, and no chemistry awareness of what it really is. Just reporting.

Thin wicks into almost all of the woods pretty quickly. Does not do much as a filler or sufficiently strong wood adhesive. It does, however, create a seal on wood so that other materials and medium or thick CA glues can adhere readily, and encapsulate any sort of filler you can imagine and work.

Thick CA does indeed represent a pretty strong adhesive and does a good job at filling gaps. It also has a few seconds of "open time" so that you can make sure to position the pieces. Thin is pretty much instant set; thick is 15-30 seconds, depending on who you listen to and who you buy from; medium is about 5-15 seconds of open time, again depending on brand and user report.

Cure time is nearly impossible to get even that close. The accelerators allegedly provide a virtually complete cure in seconds. Some say that the thin stuff cures within 30 seconds, and thick within 15 minutes. I can't find any manufacturer that provides those stats. Someone probably does, just not on my radar.

The accelerator ("hardener") is a pretty cool product, but it definitely has its places for use. Spritzing this stuff generally causes the thick CA to bubble and harden very, very quickly. The thin is pretty close to instant anyhow.

There are some turners who've been using CA for a lot of years and are saying that some of the pieces they produced 10-15 years ago are starting to come apart. Again, no personal experience with failures from that long ago, just reported what others have reported.

Hope that helps.

 

[MichaelMouse]

There are some turners who've been using CA for a lot of years and are saying that some of the pieces they produced 10-15 years ago are starting to come apart. Again, no personal experience with failures from that long ago, just reported what others have reported.

Hope that helps.

Wouldn't happen to know what "coming apart" means, would you? Big difference between grain in the same direction being glued and cross or end grain segmented stuff. The first I'd expect to endure even with a brittle glue, the second I'd expect to fail with almost any glue.

 

[Ron Sardo]

Here is a good article

http://woodcentral.com/russ/russ6.shtml

 

[DeanGThomas]

Wouldn't happen to know what "coming apart" means, would you? Big difference between grain in the same direction being glued and cross or end grain segmented stuff. The first I'd expect to endure even with a brittle glue, the second I'd expect to fail with almost any glue.

From the description given by the guy talking, his pieces were coming apart. As in failed joints, failed pieces, irreparable. He did not show pictures or give further descriptions, but I'm guessing that he means hands full of segments or chunks of project, kind of indicating ALL joints failed. And not a few, again by implication. He would have said, "Had one piece fail, might have been a bad batch or starved joints." He implied that more than a couple and more than one batch of glue was involved. Don't know more. Sorry. If I find the guy again, I'll ask.

 

[dkulze]

On a more basic level, Charlie, CA (yup, superglue) is one of those great things that has about 10,001 uses other than what you're familiar with (like duct tape). It's a substance that, more than drying, goes through a state change from a liquid to a solid when the solvent it's mixed with drops below a certain level. This is part of the reason it glues so strong, in addition to having an extremely low (low or high?) surface tension that causes it to wick incredibly into the smallest space.

As woodturners, we don't get it in the little bottles you get at the Walmart. We tend to buy in 2, 4, or 16oz bottles. You use it for many things, ranging from hardening punky wood, securing cracks, preventing wood from checking, securing pieces in your chuck, short term repairs on injuries, gluing the guy turning next to you to his tools as a funny, securing yourself soundly to your 800lb lathe...

Wait a minute, those last two were things I use it for pretty steadilly but you might not want to. (and remember, when you glue someone to a gouge, they now have a sharp piece of metal attached to their hand that doesn't slow them down even slightly)

Accellerant is just something that you use to make it harden faster or in situations where it doesn't want to go solid. A spritz and "fssh" it's solid. And don't forget solvent. Good to have handy for when you glue yourself to large objects. And when I say handy, I mean in arms length. Lathes are heavy.

Have fun,
Dietrich

 

[Bill Boehme]

Don't you just hate it when that happens ...

From the description given by the guy talking, his pieces were coming apart. As in failed joints, failed pieces, irreparable. He did not show pictures or give further descriptions, but I'm guessing that he means hands full of segments or chunks of project, kind of indicating ALL joints failed. And not a few, again by implication. He would have said, "Had one piece fail, might have been a bad batch or starved joints." He implied that more than a couple and more than one batch of glue was involved. Don't know more. Sorry. If I find the guy again, I'll ask.

Wouldn't that be the pits if one day you walked into your living room and saw that your prized 5-sided moibus ring suddenly looked like a pile of fallen dominoes?

Bill

 

[dkulze]

I've heard also that CA degrades over a period of 10-15 years and can start to fail at that point. Don't know any details of exactly how but I do know that most segmented workers I'm familiar with use polyethylene wood glues now (Titebond and such).

Dietrich

 

[john lucas]

There have been several reports of CA glue failure mostly due to wood movement. CA is a fairly stiff glue and won't handle much wood movement. I've used it a lot to glue ornaments together and such and haven't had problems. I did have problems glueing handles into my mirrors. This is like a dowel joint with grain oriented 90 degrees to each other. It happened so often I quit using it for this.
One thing I'd like to clear up. In my experience accelorator doesn't necessarily make all the glue hard quickly. Only the surface. It may speed up the hardening but I've been splattered too many times by glue puddles that looked dry and had been setting for several minutes. This is just a word of caution. Stand out of the line of fire when turning freshly cured glue.

 

[Sean Troy]

Don't forget that CA is also available in black, not just clear.

Where do you find the black CA?

 

[Griesbach]

Check with Starbond. They have black and now also brown. Here's a link

http://woodturningworks.com/starbond.htm

 

[DeanGThomas]

Thanks, Cyril!

I knew they were going to be introducing the brown, but am really glad to know it's out!.

 

[Gretch Flo]

CA sensitivity

On looking at Starbond as mentioned before on this forum, I saw they have odorless CA and they would mail free samples. I have written on this forum before my sensitivity to the fumes (upper respiratory-severe). I tried their free sample and no problems!!!!!!
It is 2x the expense as regular, but I bought the large container=$60 (they give you 4-5 small containers to put it into), and the price came down to the regular price (not quantity prices). I am really glad I did that!!!! Gretch

 

[pencheff]

Where do you find the black CA?

Highland Woodworking in GA offers black flexible CA glue. Has anyone tried this yet?


http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=6439

 

[Griesbach]

Gretch,
Thanks for the info on your "test" of Starbond's odorless CA. I think that's the way I'm going to go when I need to resupply. How well is it working? That is...have you experienced any differences in the bonds compared to the "burn you eyes and lungs" version?

 

[Gretch Flo]

odorless ca

Seems to work as well as other, altho seems a little more viscous. Does bark ok, punky areas ok, cracks?? -may have to wait 10 years and see them all fall apart!!!! Gretch

 

[Ken Grunke]

CA as a finish

Russ Fairfield did a 2-day demo for our club this weekend and one of the things he showed us was how he finishes a small platter with the stuff. It looks great if you apply it fast to get an even coat on a relatively large surface.
Another point was driven home by Russ, as he was doing this he had to turn away from the fumes which were pretty strong. Point being, wear respiratory protection!

 

[dkulze]

I'd guess the odorless stuff uses a different solvent, possibly one that doesn't boil off so agressively when the glue heats, so as to keep fuming spread out over a longer period. In small amounts, CA is no problem. Just that we woodturners don't use it in small amounts.

Dietrich

 

[Gretch Flo]

CA in small amounts

Dietrick-even in small amts the CA would give me the respiratory problems about 6-8 hours later. By small I mean if I took 2 inhalations and could smell it, I was in trouble (Antihitamines and decongestants helped prevent if I remembered to take them right away.). I either held my breath or raced the piece into the other part of the basment, holding my breath. But occasionally I couldn't hold my breath that long!!!!! So glad I found the solution, Using it on finger cuts has not been a problem as long as I didn't breath it. Gretch

 

[dave J]

I have had several larger batches set up on me before I got it half used up. So I keep my self supplied with the standard tubes. at most of the dollar stores and some Big Lots one can get 3 to 5 tube packs FOR A DOLLAR! and then at the major flea markets BUT so much of the time thiers is just setting out in the sun and no way to know how old the stuff is.
I have also read that if CA is missing moisture it is slower or even fails to set! I have heard that accelerators in some cases is nothing more than water with a sprayer that sprays extremly fine. I some times breath some humidity on the 2 peices just before addin glue. at any rate it has a very definate shelf life

 

[dkulze]

Well, Gretch, you're obviously allergic to the solvent commonly used. If antihistimines help out significantly, then that's the single biggest clue. Be careful cause a dangerous reaction is just around the corner! May never happen and it may happen at the next use.

Just curious. Are you strongly allergic to bee stings, antibiotics, other chemicals? If so, keeping that epi-pin handy is a good thing.

Dietrich

 

[Gretch Flo]

Well, Gretch, you're obviously allergic to the solvent commonly used. If antihistimines help out significantly, then that's the single biggest clue. Be careful cause a dangerous reaction is just around the corner! May never happen and it may happen at the next use.

Just curious. Are you strongly allergic to bee stings, antibiotics, other chemicals? If so, keeping that epi-pin handy is a good thing.

Dietrich

Get swelling with the ground bees/hornets (take 2 benedryl right away now.) not honey bees. A skin rash with ampicillin. Got poison ivy for the first time at 45 yrs of age, and only a few times since. So not particularly allergic.
My father (a Dr. and mother a nurse)got stung , 5 min later sat down, passed out, no pulse, and my mother gave him some epinephrine that he had in his dr. bag, and he came thru fine).

 

[MichaelMouse]

Get swelling with the ground bees/hornets (take 2 benedryl right away now.) not honey bees. A skin rash with ampicillin. Got poison ivy for the first time at 45 yrs of age, and only a few times since. So not particularly allergic.

Sounds allergic to me. Anecdotal information only here, and the press likes to make an issue of anything that scares people, but they are saying that allergic, even to anaphylaxis, reactions are increasing.

Twenty plus years and two in my experience that progressed to epi. THREE this summer alone, two of which were pretty narrow things. Daughter says in her area experience is the same. The self injection pens are simple, but the do require a prescription. I know a couple/three people who never carried one that are doing so now!

First thing you'll require breathing help for will be the arrival of the ambulance bill.

 

[Stick Fast]

CA Activators

Just a little info about CA Activators if you are going to use them.
Activators make a fast CA adhesive even faster!

BUT... More is not better.
Too much will cause an over exothermic reaction creating bubbles or turning the CA white. This also will reduce the holding strength.

There are several brands available but beware of the "extra strength" stuff - can be easily over appied.
There is the standard and economical pump version and the aerosol spray version. If you are going to spray directly on the CA - as when using CA as a coating or sealer - I would use the fine mist aerosol. If you are going to use only for bonding - spraying activator on one part with the CA on the other part then pressing them together - either activators will work fine.

good luck on your projects,
the glue guys

 

[Stick Fast]

CAs loosing there grip?

Generally CAs are brittle and can shatter with impact. There has been talk about different woods have different expansion rates with temp and humid changes which would creat stress on the bond... but I cannot confirm that.

Flexible CAs, while more expensive, cures this problem.

To generate the best bond using the correct viscosity is the key.
Ideally use a viscosity that when applying slightly soaks into the wood but not all the way. This will "weld" the wood together making the bond stronger than the wood itself.

Once the CA has cured it will not change molecularly.

The glue guys

 

[Stick Fast]

Water as a CA activator

While the curing mechanism for CA is a high Ph level, I would not recommend spraying water on CA to make it cure faster.

Activators primarly have a trace amount of amine combined with a solvent carrier to accelerate the polymerization of the CA.

Highly acidic surfaces (many woods have high acid contents) slow down the curing process and activators would be highly desirable for those applications.

The glue guys

 

[Stick Fast]

CA curing mechanism - for the chemists out there

Attached is a PDF file of how it really works...
Maybe too much information!
Someone out there maybe just wondering...

The glue guys

 

[Stick Fast]

History of Adhesives

Attached is a PDF file of an interesting article about the development of adhesives and Cyanoacrylate Adhesives.

I hope you enjoy it,
The glue guys

 

[Stick Fast]

Making CAs last longer - storage idea

Keep them out of the sun in a cool, dry place.

There is generally a one year shelf life - unopened. After the bottle is opened how you store it becomes the limiting factor. Many woodturners use the CA so quickly that storage is not a problem for for those who do not you may want to keep your CA in a moisture tight container (glass or peanut butter jar) with a bag of dessicant. Occationally dry the dessicant in a microwave oven to get the accumulated moisture out - ideally a color indicating dessicant will tell you when to dry out the dessicant. :cool2:

Freezer is not a good idea because of condensation as it is opened. Refrigerator works ok unopened but once the bottle is opened the refrigerator will create condensation in the bottle reducing the shelf life. :mad:

So... buy the freshest CA possible and then store it right for the best results. Many times those tubes you buy at the dollar store have spent months on a boat from China... and then how many months to get to the store.

Hope this helps,
the glue guys

 

[Stick Fast]

CA DeBonder - Always a good thing to have around

CA DeBonder is not a thinner. It chemically changes the CA into a non adhesive... even cured CA although it takes longer. So don't try to make Thin CA out of Thick... it just will not work!

If you ever glue your tools together or fingers together or spray some CA on your glasses... you will wish you had some handy.

Remember this stuff is flammable - and don't put it into your eyes or drink it! :mad: very bad idea!

If you do get some CA in your eyes - don't panic! The CA will eventually disolve with the normal tearing. See a doctor but you will create more damage trying to get it out on your own. CA is used extensively in medical procedures as a suture.

The glue guys

 

[MichaelMouse]

Attached is a PDF file of how it really works...
Maybe too much information!
Someone out there maybe just wondering...
The glue guys

Never too much information. Nothing you learn is ever wasted, even if you don't use it today, tomorrow, or the day after. Come next week....

Thanks.

EDIT : One question, would it cost a fortune to have the different viscosities packaged behind a different color label? It would save me the magic marker.

 

[Gary]

One question, would it cost a fortune to have the different viscosities packaged behind a different color label? It would save me the magic marker.

the stuff the have on the shelf at woodcraft and eagle-america, does have different colored labels on the thin, medium and thick ca.

 

[Stick Fast]

Black and Brown CA

Where do you find the black CA?

There are two types of Black CA.
Standard CA and Black Flexible CA.
I believe Star Bond has the Standard CA.
Sick Fast uses the Flexible CA because of various problems maintaining shelf life and suspension of the black with regular CA.

We have also tried making color kits with red, yellow, blue, green, and black. Unfortunately shelf life problems still need to be worked out. We can supply dry color die by itself - but it is kind of messy to mix. We are trying to have it in liquid form. To get a good crisp color the shelf life is very limited... so the work goes on. What do you think about mixing a powder into the CA as a kit - would that be acceptable to you? Another idea we had was have the power in a small bottle and all you have to do is add CA, put a cap on then dispense - but relize that shelf life is very limited after mixing.

Make black yourself:
In small amounts you can add black carbon... When we were first looking at black I would take a piece of aluminum foil to act as my mix tray then mix Medium CA and black carbon together in small amounts. The dryer the material mixed in the longer you will have to work with it.

Our chemical tests show that Brown may be just low quality burned CA - but if it works for you - what the heck.

Note: TMI the parent company does not retail Stick Fast or Hold Fast products - they can be found at most of the major catalog stores like Klingspor, Packard, Woodworks, Highland Hardware... most give club discounts.

The Glue Guy :cool2:

 

[Stick Fast]

Different colored labels on CA bottles

Never too much information. Nothing you learn is ever wasted, even if you don't use it today, tomorrow, or the day after. Come next week....

Thanks.

EDIT : One question, would it cost a fortune to have the different viscosities packaged behind a different color label? It would save me the magic marker.

Well that is a long story...
Cost and flexibility is the answer. We print on the front label what is inside, adding new products and sizes all the time and we give our distributors the option to add their contact information at no extra cost.
We have added a different colored over cap but I relize that most of us heavy users throw that away and just put the bottle on the shelf next to the lathe and never worry about shelf life because we use it so fast...

I know this is not the answer you are looking for... Maybe we should include a magic marker

The Glue Guy :cool2:

 

[Stick Fast]

Odorless CAs

On looking at Starbond as mentioned before on this forum, I saw they have odorless CA and they would mail free samples. I have written on this forum before my sensitivity to the fumes (upper respiratory-severe). I tried their free sample and no problems!!!!!!
It is 2x the expense as regular, but I bought the large container=$60 (they give you 4-5 small containers to put it into), and the price came down to the regular price (not quantity prices). I am really glad I did that!!!! Gretch

Stick Fast has two types of Odor Less CA.
The basic "Odorless" we call "Low Odor" (I have a hard time calling anyting but water "Odorless"...) is just that low odor and is our least expensive in the "Low Odor" and performs just like regular CA.

Stick Fast also has "Ultra Low Odor". Not only is it "Low Odor" but it can also be used to bond foam plus it is "non whitening". Whitening, blooming or frosting occurs when bonding some materials like metal, glass or nylon. This cures that problem. It is more expensive but for the right application it is worth it. Note: the fumes are what causes the whitening so having a fan on the application will greatly reduce this also when using standard CA.

The Glue Guy :cool2:

 

[Stick Fast]

Pouring CA from one bottle to another

On looking at Starbond as mentioned before on this forum, I saw they have odorless CA and they would mail free samples. I have written on this forum before my sensitivity to the fumes (upper respiratory-severe). I tried their free sample and no problems!!!!!!
It is 2x the expense as regular, but I bought the large container=$60 (they give you 4-5 small containers to put it into), and the price came down to the regular price (not quantity prices). I am really glad I did that!!!! Gretch

I know a lot of us refill bottles because it can save $$... just don't ask me to do it.

Reason why not:
1. It introduces contanimates and moisture reducing shelf life and quality (each Stick Fast bottle is purged with a special gas before filling to prolong shelf life)
2. It can be very messy.
3. The fumes can be overwhelming.
4. How much do you really save. Introduced for the club user the 4oz bottle with the standard spout size and precision dispensing available is easy to handle and is very competitively priced. As a big user, use the 8 and 16 oz sizes right out of the bottle if precision dispensing is not required..

The Glue Guy :cool2:

 

[Stick Fast]

There have been several reports of CA glue failure mostly due to wood movement. CA is a fairly stiff glue and won't handle much wood movement. I've used it a lot to glue ornaments together and such and haven't had problems. I did have problems glueing handles into my mirrors. This is like a dowel joint with grain oriented 90 degrees to each other. It happened so often I quit using it for this.
One thing I'd like to clear up. In my experience accelorator doesn't necessarily make all the glue hard quickly. Only the surface. It may speed up the hardening but I've been splattered too many times by glue puddles that looked dry and had been setting for several minutes. This is just a word of caution. Stand out of the line of fire when turning freshly cured glue.

You are right... stand out of the line of fire!
The curing starts on the outside and works it's way in - for bonding that is why more is not better - the closer the surfaces are the better.
This nomally happens when filling large gaps or filling cracks. Layering the CA will help (takes too much time ) . A mixture of 10 parts sawdust to 1 part soda works great. There may be a lot of exothermic reaction (bubbling) but if it is down in a hole or crack that can't be seen...

Just an idea...

The Glue Guy :cool2:

 

[Stick Fast]

Odor less CA Viscosity and things falling apart

Seems to work as well as other, altho seems a little more viscous. Does bark ok, punky areas ok, cracks?? -may have to wait 10 years and see them all fall apart!!!! Gretch

I am really wondering what is happening when things "fall" apart when glued with CA. If there is anyone out there that has a piece that has "fallen apart" We would like to see it to analyse it even if it was not glued with Stick Fast CA. Relize standard CA can be brittle and when gap filling to create a bond may fracture when dropped or stressed by expansion and contractions. If there are no or little gaps when bonding the CA actually "welds" the two parts together. Just gap filling or crack filling does not require a strong bond so it should not be a problem.

Large gaps to bond = use epoxy. By the way we just came out with a clear 5 and 20 minute cure epoxy - great for wood projects but does need to be mixed and is not as easy to use as CA.

Also: all CAs are not made the same! They can be Methyl, Ethyl, Butyl, or modified base. Although not the least expensive, Ethyl is the best for most surfaces. Standard Stick Fast is Ethyl formulated as "surface insensitive" which means you can use it on a lot of stuff - and different types of woods are lots of different stuff. Purity levels = different quality levels. We go to the extent of minimum of 99.5% pure - that means without contanimants. This is done through a distilation process which all CAs go through at least one process. This takes time and not all companies do this to the extent we do. Also in the distilation process the CA is heated. We bring the tempature up slowly so that the bottom does not burn (turn brown - maybe that is a good thing). Once again that takes more time... Quality in CA does take time, attention, and technology... We don't think anyone can surpass ours.

Low Odor CA comes in Thin, Medium, and Thick just like the standard CA

Good luck on all your projects - I wish I had more time to Turn

The Glue Guy :cool2: