Changing a spindle and belt

[Scott Hayes]

I've been given a Shop Fox w1758 by a friend. It was unfortunately dropped on the spindle at some point. The end of the spindle is bent in and it is slightly bent overall.
I've been able to use the lathe by doing small faceplate mounted turnings with a waste block. I also bolted a piece of wood to the faceplate and sanded it with the axis and that took most of the wobble out of the rough workpiece.

I have a spindle coming on backorder from the shop fox company, I assume being machined in china considering the suprising rather low cost of it. Has anyone changed a spindle in one of these or a similar lathe? Will I need any special tools or anything important I need to know? I haven't torn it apart yet to see how it's together.

It is also variable speed, it's supposed to be 600-3000, mine on low is about 850rpm. I've seen that it may be a worn belt that is bringing up the speed. Before I order a new belt, if I were to find a smaller pulley for the motor and a belt that was the right size for that setup, could it bring the overall speed of the lathe down lower? Would it hurt the motor or anything?

Thanks a lot.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Did you also order new bearings? If it was dropped on the spindle I wouldn't even consider using the old bearings. For that matter, I would install new bearings with a new spindle even if I thought the old bearings still had some life in them. Often the bearings are pressed onto the spindle and removing them is likely to ruin them. It's just easier to use new bearings. The extra effort to attempt salvaging the old ones is fraught with too many unknowns.

If you don't have the manual, HERE IT IS. The exploded parts diagram in the manual will help in replacing removing and replacing the spindle. Usually there are snap rings that need to be removed. If you don't have high quality snap ring pliers, they are worth the price ... I've done it both ways and top quality pliers will save you a lot of time and grief.


The bearings are 6205ZZ which is a very common and low cost size. I would substitute double rubber sealed bearings for the shielded bearings. The sufix ZZ means double metal shields. There are several different suffixes for double rubber seals, but RRS is a common one.

 

[Jamie Straw]

Good bearing source

+1 on Bill's suggest to replace the bearings! Local AAW friends just put a new spindle and bearings in my Jet 1236. I got the bearings from McGuire Bearing Company, 1-800-547-6045. Their customer service was great, as were their prices, and they have 3 warehouses to ship from, so you can order from the one closest to you. I requested USPS Flat Rate Priority Mail, and they got here very fast. Also, if you ask for ABEC-3 instead of ABEC-1, they will be a better quality for only a couple dollars more.

 

[Jamie Straw]

[Snip] Will I need any special tools or anything important I need to know? I haven't torn it apart yet to see how it's together. [Snip]
Thanks a lot.

It looks like your Shop Fox has a Reeves drive for changing speeds. You'll want to make sure you understand how that works, and be sure when you put it back together you know how the pulleys are supposed to be set and the speed handle (which moves one of the halves) is in the right place. I'm assuming you already know to change speeds only when the lathe is running (or you're turning it by hand). The guys that did my lathe had done a couple others of the same model, but they had their challenges getting the bearings and spindle out. Actually, one of the bearings they left in (not sure which one) because it would have taken a bearing puller to remove it. Getting the new bearings back in took some creative thinking -- they were very, very snug and one of the snap rings wouldn't slip in. Tap, tap, tap with a wooden block and small mallet; tap, tap, tap with a PVC pipe that just fit over the part; tap, tap, tap. I wanted to learn the process, but they were so focused on "gettin' 'er done" there wasn't a chance. We actually sanded a few thousandths off the snap ring so it would fit.

One other thing I do remember, though, is being sure that the stationary halves on the two pulley's line up. Don't know how much of this is helpful, but if you do an internet search on "change bearings 1236 lathe" you will definitely get hits. The spindle is just a sideshow, methinks. As far as your low speed goes, it might be worthwhile to run the lathe with the hood off the headstock so you can see if the Reeves is really going to its lowest configuration.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I have repaired and replaced Reeves drive pulleys many times on my old Delta 46-715 lathe. I think that by the end I could almost do it blindfolded, but forget about trying to improve it ... unless you have the expertise in machining new parts, it is what it is. Jamie has excellent observations. I'll add that if you are pressing a bearing onto a shaft then only press on the inner shell. If the bearing is being pressed into a recess then only press on the outer shell. The point being that you don't want to do anything that will brinell the bearing races.

With only a few exceptions, the Reeves drives used on woodturning lathes aren't very good, so if you recognize this then you won't be too disappointed about the performance. Speed regulation is poor and varies with load and belt condition. Additionally, the speed control linkage from the lever to the headstock pulley is sloppy -- contributing further to loose speed control. All of this contributes to making the Reeves drive rather noisy and causing the belt, pulleys, and bearings to wear out faster than other types of drives.

Regarding bearing ABEC classification, it generally is best to use the same classification on replacement bearings as the original bearings. A couple reasons include speed range and factors that aren't covered by the ABEC standard. Here is a PDF giving some specs for the ABEC grades.

 

[Jamie Straw]

[Snip]

Regarding bearing ABEC classification, it generally is best to use the same classification on replacement bearings as the original bearings. A couple reasons include speed range and factors that aren't covered by the ABEC standard. Here is a PDF giving some specs for the ABEC grades.

Bill, what other factors might come into play? Given the rather narrow speed range of these low-end lathes (no offense meant, Scott), I figured that speed wouldn't be much of a concern. Also, I'm interested in how the double rubber shields work in comparison to the double metal shields.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Bill, what other factors might come into play? Given the rather narrow speed range of these low-end lathes (no offense meant, Scott), I figured that speed wouldn't be much of a concern. Also, I'm interested in how the double rubber shields work in comparison to the double metal shields.

The PDF that I linked to gave some examples. Going from ABEC-1 to ABEC-3 is generally not a big deal, but it might be worth looking at some of the "other" things when shopping for a better bearing. Perusing bearing catalogs can give you an idea what is important and what isn't. I definitely wouldn't consider ABEC-7 or ABEC-9 for numerous reason, but price would be the most significant reason. It has been too many years since I was up to speed on bearings, so my first step would be to jog some dormant brain cells.

 

[Jamie Straw]

The PDF that I linked to gave some examples. Going from ABEC-1 to ABEC-3 is generally not a big deal, but it might be worth looking at some of the "other" things when shopping for a better bearing. Perusing bearing catalogs can give you an idea what is important and what isn't. I definitely wouldn't consider ABEC-7 or ABEC-9 for numerous reason, but price would be the most significant reason. It has been too many years since I was up to speed on bearings, so my first step would be to jog some dormant brain cells.

Yeah, I didn't even consider going higher than ABEC-3, the price gets crazy considering what it was being installed in. Just felt better not taking the bottom of the barrel, the way so many things are made these days.

 

[Scott Hayes]

Thanks a lot for the advice. I will definitely order new bearings and have an excuse to buy good snap ring pliers.

Hopefully nothing else is too messed up, although I'm already thinking I will get a smaller nicer lathe at some point. The price was right with this one being free. I've at least got the opportunity to learn on it.

 

[Richard Coers]

Thanks a lot for the advice. I will definitely order new bearings and have an excuse to buy good snap ring pliers.

Hopefully nothing else is too messed up, although I'm already thinking I will get a smaller nicer lathe at some point. The price was right with this one being free. I've at least got the opportunity to learn on it.

I tried to learn on a crappy reeves drive Delta 30 years ago. Back then it wasn't easy to get much better. What I learned was that I didn't want to turn, and I parked it. But I returned to it, and found out what a good machine could be like at regional symposiums and a weekend class. You'll learn a lot of bad habits on a poor machine by yourself. You will turn rough bowls dangerously too fast with too high of minimum rpm, poor rpm control, and low machine weight. You can learn spindle turning just fine, but bowl turning will be the opposite.

 

[Jim Chrisawn]

Spindle bearings

I recently posted a two part video series on YouTube on spindle bearing replacement that might help. It not a professionally produced video series, but maybe it might be of some help.
Search for:
Rock Springs Woodturner
Or Jet 1642

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdFaZ0aX47HDJ4U5XoxFH7g

 

[Douglas Ladendorf]

Thanks a lot for the advice. I will definitely order new bearings and have an excuse to buy good snap ring pliers.

These are the ones I have and they are terrific.
http://m.homedepot.com/p/Channellock-8-in-Retaining-Ring-Pliers-927/100348008

Many of us started on reeves drive lathes. They are great for spindles, which is a great place to start learning.

Doug

 

[Jamie Straw]

I realize that due to the limited speed range, especially the low end, our Reeves drive lathes aren't useful for big bowls or badly out-of-balance bowl blanks. But c'mon now, we can still learn the basics of bowl turning. We may have to do more work with the band saw to make a blank more balanced, or at a lighter starting weight, especially for an 8-10" bowl. Common sense and seeking input from a mentor or other skilled advisor enables one to get the most out of these "starter" lathes. The advanced turners I've met through our club have been very encouraging about how far mine can take me before needing to upgrade.

 

[hockenbery]

I realize that due to the limited speed range, especially the low end, our Reeves drive lathes aren't useful for big bowls or badly out-of-balance bowl blanks. But c'mon now, we can still learn the basics of bowl turning. We may have to do more work with the band saw to make a blank more balanced, or at a lighter starting weight, especially for an 8-10" bowl. Common sense and seeking input from a mentor or other skilled advisor enables one to get the most out of these "starter" lathes. The advanced turners I've met through our club have been very encouraging about how far mine can take me before needing to upgrade.

A reeves drive on a big machine will do any job.
A number of turners in the Chesapeake woodturners owned the same old General with a reeves drive and riser blocks to make it a 20" machine.
That General turned a lot of bowls some in the 18" diameter range. Many from unbalanced blanks.
I turned on it at two of its owners homes. A couple of blanks were 1/2 logs.

Each owner kept it for 4-5 years, treated it well and bought a bigger lathe.

True variable speed is a big step up and let's you fine tune the speed in each speed range.
On the slow pulley you get more torque but also get greater control of the speed change.

Since the advent of the Electronic variable speed drive, Reeves drives don't go on big machines anymore.
The light machines with the reeves drive are going to hop around with an uneven blank at a given speed.
They will hop around just as much at the same speed if they have an electronic drive.

I use a lot of different lathes. I would rather turn on a 14" jet with a reeves drive than Nova DVR with the old style touch pad. The reeves drive is slow to respond but I have positive control. The DVR responds slower and with much less positive control an it is easy to overshoot. if you have to stop in a hurry the big red button turns off the jet imagine looking for the tiny little raised bump one the DVR. I think Nova has made a significant improvement in the DVR controls.

Al

 

[Douglas Ladendorf]

But c'mon now, we can still learn the basics of bowl turning.

Not sure if this was in response to my comment, but I don't disagree. I do think a beginning turner is better off learning to turn spindles first, especially on a lathe that has a limited low speed. I added bowls to the repertoire on the Delta I had and enjoyed turning them very much. I take very few pictures but here is a live edge bowl in progress.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Al, you make some very good points about the different types of drives. Every type of drive has positive and negative features. Some older lathes have excellent Reeves drives that used machined cast iron pulleys. I'm a little familiar with stepper motors from work experience although that experience is not my forte in motors.

From what I have seen in lathes made since I started turning in 2004, the Reeves drives pulleys are made from die cast zinc alloy which costs much less to manufacture than comparable iron components. While zinc alloy is great for fixed pulleys, the downside is that zinc alloy Reeves pulleys warp, wear, and develop fatigue cracks. The positive side of Reeves drives is power -- other than the small power loss due to belt and pulley efficiency, full power is available at all speeds which is something that can't be said about any type of electronic drive.

Nova's Digital Variable Reluctance motor (Nova's fancy marketing jargon for "stepper" motor) is a new approach in lathe drives with the advent of steppers with muscle. It's only been in the last 15 to 20 years that affordable steppers have been available that have enough power to drive anything more substantial than a computer hard drive. Stepper motors are like bumblebees that allegedly shouldn't be able to fly (actually that is just an urban legend). A stepper needs a lot of help to "fly" -- it can't just be plugged into a power source ... it needs a computer to give it incremental step-at-a-time pulses to the right power leads in order to move. In order to run smoothly, some fancy math is needed to tell it how to respond to torque and inertia load changes as well as how to accelerate and decelerate. It's not hard to imagine woodturning lathes presenting a significant challenge in this respect because the mass, moment of inertia, lorque load and other factors make it difficult to do this without the help of sophisticated adaptive control methods. Since material is constantly being removed, adaptive algorithms must continuously play catch up ... and at slower speeds it takes longer to learn these parameters. Long story to say why a stepper sometimes over or under compensates with changes in load torque (i.e., the force needed to cut the wood). What's the real advantage of steppers? Cost of manufacturing. Steppers are simple devices that need a sophisticated driver. Fortunately microprocessors and other computer hardware are also cheap. Software development is possibly the most expensive part. I don't know what features the Nova DVR offers, but it shouldn't be a big deal to have it do incremental stepping somewhat like Bill Ooms COrnLathe. It is also possible to do the same thing with a three phase AC motor and vector VFD (true vector with encoder feedback, not "sensorless" vector).

Al mentioned the popularity of electronic speed control. It's a wonderful feature, but it does have its weaknesses. Available power decreases proportionally with speed reduction-- half speed means half power, quarter speed means quarter power. So, what can be done to overcome this bump in the road? Two or three things:

• Wisely choose pulley ratios for each speed range so that the motor will be running near its base speed -- the speed when running at 60 Hz, which is about 1750 RPM.
• use a larger horsepower motor than a comparable lathe with fixed pulleys ... or Reeves pulleys, for that matter.
• And, if the motor is rated for it, program the VFD to run the motor over base speed at the upper end of each speed range.

There's a lot of other design trade-offs that also come into play when trying to optimize all of these performance characteristics.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I just went back to revisit the first post because I started wondering if the topic had "drifted" a bit. Maybe a little.

 

[Scott Hayes]

It did stray from the topic a bit, but that's a good thing, now I know much more about the various speed control options whenever I decide to buy another.

I'm still waiting on my spindle, probably another 3 weeks before I get it. I did find a local store that has bearings and belts I'll check out and I'm definitely going to watch all the videos I can before I try.

 

[Jamie Straw]

Evolution...

I just went back to revisit the first post because I started wondering if the topic had "drifted" a bit. Maybe a little.

It's organic.