?? For Segmented turners

[Raul McCai]

The question (for those who just want to cut to the chase) is:
Do you use the tilt table feature on your disc sanders much? && If so, could you get away without if if you didn't have the tilt table feature?

I'm jonsing to get into segmented turning.
I've read some books and watched some DVDs and have considered that aside from a lathe and tools I might benefit from a Disk sander and the bigger the better.

But Watching the likes of Malcom Tibbits (who insists that you need one) kissing his work against his Wood Tek ever so gently, leaves with a takeaway that the power and capacity of a 20 - 24" disc sander - - a machine manufactured primarily for the machine tool industry - - is overkill on steroids. I mean them, make them for grinding steel.

I have a 1HP Baldor
I have a 4" diameter cast iron sheave to which I can mount a DIY wood disc.
I have some decent plywood I can cut in a circle and laminate to get a purdy flat disc.
I'm thinking that If I make the Disc, whatever size suits my fancy, I can make a Right angle table with a guide and use that to true the disc with a little toolbit in a holder by sliding it through the guide while spinning the desc.
I can use abrasive discs cut from WideBelt material and use Elmer's spray which is a re-position-able adhesive.
I know I can pull this off.
Question to you Sefgmented turners is - - - -
What about the tilting table feature.

I've never seen any one use theirs much. How necessary is it?

Reason I ask is that it is a heck of a lot easier to make a fixed accurate table than it is to Shop build an adjustable one that can achieve accuracy at any setting at all.

 

[Edward Weber]

The short answer is no, you don't "need" the table to tilt, but, as with everything, it all depends on what type of segmenting you want to do.
I have a 12" Jet disc sander and I do use the tilt feature. If you are going to make any type of compound cut, it can be helpful. You can either make the table tilt or have a fixed table and make fixtures to hold your pieces at the desired angle, it's your choice.
If you make your own tilting style table, I would suggest you look into getting a set of trunnions for it.
For your disc, if you use plywood, you might consider laminating some type of hard-board like masonite for a hard smooth surface. The disc needs to be as true as possible or it's not worth the effort.

 

[John King]

Pass on the Disc Sander

Don't spend any money on a disc sander for segmented work. Spend time and money on a precision cutting system - precisely calibrated cutting sled, premium quality saw blade, properly tuned saw, etc. Hand sanding the segments to remove "fuzz" from the joint face is sometimes required. I tried disc sanding segments. I found use of a disc sander only damaged the accuracy of the precision cut using a fixed angle sled and properly tuned table saw. Checkout Seg-Easy at http://www.segeasy.com/index.htm. No sanding required for perfect rings. - John

 

[odie]

...... some type of hard-board like masonite for a hard smooth surface. The disc needs to be as true as possible or it's not worth the effort.

I'm not qualified to speak about segment turning, but I do have a comment here for discussion. I believe anyone who relies on wood, for a sanding disc is asking to have problems with accuracy.......not to mention the pita it would be to change discs, because of the adhesive. A metal disc would be best, because it's stable, and when you peel off a used sanding disc, the residue can be removed with a solvent.

There are plenty of machines with 6, 8, 10, 12.......20 inch plates.......I would think you could order just the disc from one of the suppliers, like Jet.

I have an 8" disc that I took off a cheap 1x42 belt sanding rig combination for a project that didn't work out. You could find something like this cheap on Craig's list......or, even at Harbor Freight.

What size of a disc you'd need is a question I couldn't answer......but unless you need to square up a board that is over 12" long, I don't see the need for a very large disc. Then again, I'm not a segmented turner. As I type this, the though occurred to me that a long board could be trued up on a very large disc, and then cut into matching pieces.......? Maybe the 20" disc is the way to go, if you are a Malcom Tibbitts.....?

ooc

 

[Raul McCai]

Sawing accuracy isn't a problem. I'm running a nice Austrian Slider and it's tighter than any sled I ever used on my conventional saw. I can set it up with jigs and fixtures galore that will yield repeatability & precision that would make a tool & die maker envious. But saw teeth being what they are always leave a little bit of ragged edge.

The thing about touching up to de-fuzz by hand is that - - -well - - the only reliable surface in the process is the one on the board and sadly my hands are less reliable than I would like them to be.

For example: I tried to do the "Bowl From a Board" thing. Started out not knowing I needed a 3/4" board and wrecked a nice think hunk of maple but Se La Vie~!! So I got the 3/4" board and cut it and ran circles on the BS yadda yadda yadda.
Then I started the gluing up the sections with a pre-fit.
Well just like you'd expect the wood had moved in the sawing process.
And trying to correct that just proved to me that my hands are too clumsy and crude for some things and that having a spinning disc would make life so much easier. Trying to hand flatting the fragile pieces without imposing yet more twist upon them was out of the question. I even tried a shooting board sander kind of rig and still had issues. The problem is that I have to apply sufficient force to get the abrasive to to its job while going round and round or back and forth while also trying to hold a very exacting position without fault. It all was just too much.
ARRGGGHHHH

So you can see my feeling that I need a Disc sander

 

[Raul McCai]

I would think you could order just the disc from one of the suppliers, like Jet.

I've considered this. However I am ignorant of the interface they use. Would it retrofit onto a 5/8" motor shaft? Would it require a woodruf key or a conventional square key? Were I the engineering and marketing of such a company I'd make them proprietary to prevent exactly that from stealing my market share.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Not exactly what you asked. You could make a disc of MDF (odie it is a very stable material) to mount on faceplate on the lathe. Then you can make a table in front of the disc to use any angle you want and you could even make the angle adjustable. I would go for a rub on paper attached to glass plate if needed.

 

[Michelle Rich]

skip the sander

I have been making segmented stuff for over 30 yrs. The disc sanders on today's market are not as precise as one would want. Cut your wood on a good tablesaw..with a very precise set up for angles..i.e. incra or other. use a good blade. Take your time. DO NOT SAND..just get the nibs off.
All this sanding is a holdover from some books out many years ago.( it was about glue & glue lines) I left that advice in the dust. why ruin a good cut with a very sloppy disc sander?

 

[Raul McCai]

All this sanding is a holdover from some books out many years ago.( it was about glue & glue lines)

How very interesting. I gotta say I can't count the times I've read some bit of terribly useful information whose usefulness is dated and no longer valid in light of new developments in things like better tools, new technology, better glues etc.

 

[billooms]

I'm also in the "Do Not Sand" camp. Get a high quality blade for your table saw and spend the time getting a clean and accurate cut from your sled. The only time I sand is when touching up the two halves of a ring to get a perfect fit between the 2 halves. I use a 12" disk sander for this, but you could get by with a smaller one depending on the size of your work.

 

[john lucas]

Well I do both. I do like my sander. I often cut segments on the bandsaw to get the grain orientation I like and then use the disc sander to true up the segments and make them perfect. I have a cheap Rikon 12". It does a good enough job after a little tune up of the table. I haven't done any work where I needed the tilt feature so far and have it locked down to be perfectly square as best I can. I don't do a lot of segmented work as a whole but do make a fair number of segmented rings for other inlay purposes.
Look at the Shopsmith disc sander attachment for their saw. It is bored for 5/8" and works fine on a motor. Haven't looked in a while and they might be kind of expensive because shopsmith stuff tends to be a little over priced.

2 years ago I needed to cut 54" compound mitered staves for a project. I invested in a top of the line Forest Blade. Best money I ever spent. Still don't have the best saw on the market but that blade certainly helps. I frequently do 32 segment rings and when I do that many cuts I will make 10 rings and invariably no matter how hard I try at least 3 of them won't close up without some minor trying on the sander. 8,12, and 16 segments I can do all day with accuracy.

For flattening rings from bowl from a board techniques I use my big jumbo jaws and true them up on the lathe. At least I used to. This last year I got a Performax drum sander and have tried using it to flatten the rings with pretty good success. Still new at using that machine for that purpose but it seems to work well.

 

[Edward Weber]

While I'm not sure of the OP's intended use for a disc sander, I will say this.
Some people seem to jump to the conclusion that the only use a segmenter needs a disc sander for is to refine a poor quality cut or as some sort of substitute for a tablesaw. this is simply not the case. I have a disc sander and that is not it's primary use. I am in the don't sand if you don't have to camp as well, but this is not always possible. There are many more methods of segmented construction than simply cutting angled wedges, gluing flat rings in a circle and stacking them. Disc sanders are useful for so many things like, segments too small or awkward to be clamped on a sled, or refining a bandsaw cut as John mentioned. Having another tool to help you in your work is usually considered a good thing.

 

[Bill Boehme]

?.. But saw teeth being what they are always leave a little bit of ragged edge.

It sounds like your saw needs a better blade. Forrest located in New Jersy makes the best blades available and will leave a glass smooth cut. Freud blades are also high quality. Both are expensive, but worth the cost as they can be sharpened several times.

 

[Jay Fluegel]

I'm also in the "Do Not Sand" camp. Get a high quality blade for your table saw and spend the time getting a clean and accurate cut from your sled. The only time I sand is when touching up the two halves of a ring to get a perfect fit between the 2 halves. I use a 12" disk sander for this, but you could get by with a smaller one depending on the size of your work.

Getting a little off topic but if you are unable to glue 12 or 16, or how many segments to make a full ring, at one time then your table saw setup is not accurate enough. Gluing the rings in two halves and then sanding each of the faces of the two halves and then gluing together will result in less than perfect alignment in the final product because those four faces that you just sanded are now shorter than the others that have been glued together. This is why people like Malcolm Tibbets advocates sanding individual segments and gluing full rings.

 

[Justin Stephen]

Getting a little off topic but if you are unable to glue 12 or 16, or how many segments to make a full ring, at one time then your table saw setup is not accurate enough. Gluing the rings in two halves and then sanding each of the faces of the two halves and then gluing together will result in less than perfect alignment in the final product because those four faces that you just sanded are now shorter than the others that have been glued together. This is why people like Malcolm Tibbets advocates sanding individual segments and gluing full rings.

But why would Malcolm Tibbets continue to advocate gluing half rings if he didn't also know that modest corrections to half rings were not sometimes needed? Sanding individual segments, as Malcolm recommends, is more about truing up segment gluing surfaces than actually dimensioning the segments.

No one disagrees that accurate cutting techniques are critical.

 

[Andy Chen]

Let Malcolm Speak

People are saying Malcolm does this, Malcolm does that. Why not ask Malcolm to post something here. I know he does read the forum and occasionally posts.

 

[Justin Stephen]

People are saying Malcolm does this, Malcolm does that. Why not ask Malcolm to post something here. I know he does read the forum and occasionally posts.

We don't need to. He covers the topic in pretty substantial detail in his videos. I own them. The reason he recommends (but freely acknowledges it is not mandatory) is to improve the endgrain surfaces of the individual segments to result in more perfect joinery. He does mention that it could also improve the odd bad segment (such as one with a burn mark or one with a slightly off-angle cut) as well. However, sanding is not about dimensioning the segments first and foremost, but about improving the gluing surfaces.

Could you cut less than perfect segments and true them all up on a sanding jig? Yup, and some people probably do that. But I think Malcolm would agree that this is a far less than ideal solution. Better to cut them right the first time.

I also agree with Michelle Rich. Even finding a truly accurate disc sander nowadays that doesn't cost a ridiculous amount of money is much easier said than done. I know that I don't trust my 12" disc sander to be accurate to that degree (or fraction of a degree) at all.

 

[Malcolm Tibbetts]

Hey guys, a few comments…

A disc sander is almost a mandatory tool for most segmented work. But not necessarily for sanding individual segment ends. There are many other uses such as constructing complex feature ring elements. Since writing my book and since producing my Volume #1 DVD, I have changed my ring building procedure. If you cannot “cut†perfect angles without evidence of a saw blade, then you can improve the glue line appearances by using a precise sanding jig. If your saw set-up allows you to produce end-grain surfaces without evidence of a saw blade (score marks, burn marks, etc), then there’s really no reason to go through the trouble of sanding every segment end. Nowadays, the majority of my rings are glued together without sanding the segment ends. I still use the half-ring gluing technique on most rings. However, if I have 100’s of small rings to build, then I glue those in one step. For the curious, I use a Kapex miter saw for most of my segment cutting.

Back to Raul’s original question, there is an occasional need for a tilting table, but most work can be done without.

 

[Cliff Walsh]

For Segmented Turners

My bench saw does not have a tilt function, so when I make compound segments I need to refine the bandsaw cuts. I have rigged up a fine adjustment screw using some allthread & some metal angle sections screwed into the right places. I would not want to be without a sander.

 

[Justin Stephen]

Hey guys, a few comments…

A disc sander is almost a mandatory tool for most segmented work. But not necessarily for sanding individual segment ends. There are many other uses such as constructing complex feature ring elements. Since writing my book and since producing my Volume #1 DVD, I have changed my ring building procedure. If you cannot “cut†perfect angles without evidence of a saw blade, then you can improve the glue line appearances by using a precise sanding jig. If your saw set-up allows you to produce end-grain surfaces without evidence of a saw blade (score marks, burn marks, etc), then there’s really no reason to go through the trouble of sanding every segment end. Nowadays, the majority of my rings are glued together without sanding the segment ends. I still use the half-ring gluing technique on most rings. However, if I have 100’s of small rings to build, then I glue those in one step. For the curious, I use a Kapex miter saw for most of my segment cutting.

Thanks for chiming in, Malcolm!

 

[Andy Chen]

Thanks for posting to clarify the issue, Malcolm.

 

[Raul McCai]

I appreciate all the input from both camps: favoring sanding and disfavoring.
I think that I'll hold off on spending the $2400+ on the PM 20" sander in favor of building one with a fixed table as per my OP.
My out of pocket won't be much since I already own the expensive components.

Accurate cuts are not a big issue for me. I own an Austrian slider which lets me cut way more accurately than any sled I ever built. So it's all a question of blade choice.
Sadly, none of which can compensate for my organizational skills deficit which, as it regards segmenting, is going to be a challenge.

 

[Raul McCai]

well I started to build a Disc Sander

I got an 18.68" by 1 & 1/4" thick disc of Jig plate mounted it to a pennstate steel faceplate. I trued it up using a Thompson bottoming gouge, and now I gotta get some elmer's repositionable spray adhesive and some widebelt material and build a little table.

Here's a link to a video of it spinning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmETxVW9src

http://youtu.be/QmETxVW9src

 

[john lucas]

Before you do anything go to this link and click and watch the 4 videos. It is an eye opener. I think (but don't know yet) that it will solve my accuracy problems with the table saw which is why I went to the disc sander in the first place.
In fact click on all the various objects to see how they were constructed. Great website.
http://www.segeasy.com/index.htm
If your not familiar with Jerry Bennett's work it is incredible.
http://jerrybennettart.com/products.htm

 

[hockenbery]

Before you do anything go to this link and click and watch the 4 videos. It is an eye opener. I think (but don't know yet) that it will solve my accuracy problems with the table saw which is why I went to the disc sander in the first place. In fact click on all the various objects to see how they were constructed. Great website. http://www.segeasy.com/index.htm If your not familiar with Jerry Bennett's work it is incredible. http://jerrybennettart.com/products.htm

Jerry's work is incredible. He will be doing 6 demonstrations in Pittsburgh. Just one more reason not to miss out!

Al

 

[john lucas]

dang Al Your going to make it hard not to go. Better start figuring out how to save the money. Hey maybe I could sell some turnings. Now there's an idea.