I’m a turner of three years and just like the rest I’m still learning and questioning. I’ve noticed lately that maybe I’ve been thinking inside the box too much. What I mean is, I’ve noticed that the “bowl gouge†is not necessarily the only way to turn a bowl. Without mentioning names, one frequent contributor to the forum (with 11 videos on photo bucket{m.m}), is using a different type “gouge†to rough down the exterior of some bowls. I'm very curious about the technique as well as some others I've seen. Of course, i’m always looking to improve and numerous questions come to mind about what type gouge it is, etc. Since there isn’t a local turning club I’m relegated to lurking in the shadows and occasionally posting on the forum or searching the net. Also, while at the AAW symposium some of the demonstrators were using a different grind to finish turn the interior of bowls as well as the exterior. I don’t recall any post about these grinds. Anyone else noticed these things? As always, thanks for your insight.
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Is a bowl gouge the only option
- Thread starter 4mikee
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Mike,
I don't think there is one grind fits all on bowl gouges. A lot the famous turners have developed their unique shape signature pieces. They modify the grind for them to push the limit in their design. For example, the picture below is Stuart Batty's work at Channel Islands Woodturners Club demo:
http://www.channelislandswoodturners.org/SBattyDEMO.htm
Stuart by producing bowls of unique shapes; he won't be competing in the crowded salad bowl market. We have to approach with open mind. I don't think there is a single gouge, method or grind that is the best. Otherwise, every turner, pros or want-to-be would switch to the "best" in no time.
We have to choose what features are more important to us.
Only you can valuate whether the cons can justify the pros you are after.
For instance, starting a bowl blank between centers is the least secure method. But most of the demonstrators I have seen, chose to do that because they feel the flexibility to move around to find the best grain pattern is more important to them than shaving 5 minutes production time. To them, that make the different between a 500 and 1000 bowl at the gallery. To a production turners, saving 10% of their time is getting 10% boost in income.
It won't hurt to learn all the methods, including advantages and disadvantage. But we have to decide what direction we want to do.
I have blindly followed almost every famed demonstrators' grinds after watching their demos. I found out their is no magic grind except my gouges are shorter.
Gordon
I don't think there is one grind fits all on bowl gouges. A lot the famous turners have developed their unique shape signature pieces. They modify the grind for them to push the limit in their design. For example, the picture below is Stuart Batty's work at Channel Islands Woodturners Club demo:
http://www.channelislandswoodturners.org/SBattyDEMO.htm
Stuart by producing bowls of unique shapes; he won't be competing in the crowded salad bowl market. We have to approach with open mind. I don't think there is a single gouge, method or grind that is the best. Otherwise, every turner, pros or want-to-be would switch to the "best" in no time.
We have to choose what features are more important to us.
Only you can valuate whether the cons can justify the pros you are after.
For instance, starting a bowl blank between centers is the least secure method. But most of the demonstrators I have seen, chose to do that because they feel the flexibility to move around to find the best grain pattern is more important to them than shaving 5 minutes production time. To them, that make the different between a 500 and 1000 bowl at the gallery. To a production turners, saving 10% of their time is getting 10% boost in income.
It won't hurt to learn all the methods, including advantages and disadvantage. But we have to decide what direction we want to do.
I have blindly followed almost every famed demonstrators' grinds after watching their demos. I found out their is no magic grind except my gouges are shorter.
Gordon
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An edge is an edge. If you follow good sense applying it to the piece you can sever wood cleanly and safely. How easily you get to the sweet spot on any tool depends on the grind, or course, but as a limit , not a determinant. The grind pales in importance when compared to the presentation, which depends on you, the lathe, and the relative position of the components of the turning problem. It's even lower in importance than the quality of the edge.
All those grinds and folks should prod us to realize that there's some common principle(s) involved in gouge work that all of the people we see making clean cuts are following. Extends to pattern of tools, too, but even the "big hats" have trouble recognizing it, as you've found. Natural enough, as accidental success is as effective as deliberate, and what we "discover" is dearer to us than what we gain from others.
Fortunately we have the wood as tutor. Don't have to do an Ed Koch at the lathe, just feel the effort diminish and watch the shaving flow increase.
Take care of yourself, the tool, and the wood in that order. Sounds like there might be some tag line material there.
All those grinds and folks should prod us to realize that there's some common principle(s) involved in gouge work that all of the people we see making clean cuts are following. Extends to pattern of tools, too, but even the "big hats" have trouble recognizing it, as you've found. Natural enough, as accidental success is as effective as deliberate, and what we "discover" is dearer to us than what we gain from others.
Fortunately we have the wood as tutor. Don't have to do an Ed Koch at the lathe, just feel the effort diminish and watch the shaving flow increase.
Take care of yourself, the tool, and the wood in that order. Sounds like there might be some tag line material there.
Great info. In particular, I noticed a different gouge being used in Michael's video that looks much like a shallow fluted roughing gouge. I'd be interested in what it is exactly.
Thanks
Mike
Thanks
Mike
4mikee said:
Mike, don't do it . Read any book, video, or (even) catalog and you will see a note on roughing gouges 'Do not use on bowls"
The roughing gouge is not strong enough to survive the serious catch any of us beginner bowl turners get. That MM can get away with it is because he is good (and lucky).
I recently turned a 12inch bowl with just scrapers, including and 1-1/2 monster. It was fun, but I think the 1/2-inch bowl gouge I have works better.
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
Although I will certainly agree that there are a lot of tools that will do the job, as MM says a cutting edge is a cutting edge. However some tools are simply better and safer for a specific job. It's hard to beat the bowl gouge for an all around tool. The thick shank means you won't break it when you get a catch and the shape of the cutting edge is ground to be very useful in a lot of different situations.
The problem with using rough out gouge on a bowl is that it's too easy to get the cut up where the edge isn't supported and you get a catch, and this grabs even more of that big U shape and the catch is really dramatic often bending or breaking the small tang.
The problem with using rough out gouge on a bowl is that it's too easy to get the cut up where the edge isn't supported and you get a catch, and this grabs even more of that big U shape and the catch is really dramatic often bending or breaking the small tang.
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n7bsn said:
Apparently the "luck" has held for thousands of years. You see, the form of the gouge in use was the only tool available until about twenty years ago, when the cylindrical gouge came on the market as a cheap sbstitute for the "long and strong" types used inside bowls up to that point. I'm sure that our turners' abilities are not any less than in former days, only our application.
What you mean to say, I'm sure, is don't be dumb when using any tool. It's not a crowbar, though huge section cylindrical gouges are sometimes used that way by turners with more muscle than finesse.
It's the way the tool is used that counts. It's above centerline on a convex form, so the force exerted on it by a projecting portion is out away from the spinning piece as well as down. It's not stabbed into the piece and levered along, rather it is pivoted from a fixed point on the rest so that the maximum depth of cut is the top of the arc it follows into and out of the wood. No attempt is ever made to reference the tool on air. Until the piece is rounded, the bevel is not referenced to the wood, because that would open up possibilities to get underneath something and, if Newton was right, provoke an opposite reaction that could fling the piece up and off its mounts.
From the 1919 text on turning, complete with picture. http://www.aroundthewoods.com/book1/page016.html Good advice, and you'll note that the way the gouge meets wood is the same as the way it does when the average cross-grain bowl is spun at 90 degrees to the spindle configuration and the rest is swung to match. Same technique applies.
Then there's my favorite old bodger who's turning a bit low for my taste in http://www.photosite.com/mmouse8/MouseDroppings/Profile-View.html , but otherwise obviously knows his gouge, as in http://www.photosite.com/mmouse8/MouseDroppings/Plan-View.html
This is but one of the techniques using old tools designed by the turners themselves, rather than machined for cost and convenience of toolmakers, to produce products rapidly and safely in this currently out-of-print book whose author's copyright has expired, but in any case, is being reviewed here with the short excerpts permitted under US rules.
Neither the tool nor the procedures are inherently dangerous, their pedigree is too well-established. Must be the operators.
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
I don't know if you've ever seen Rude Osolnik's first bowl gouge that he had designed. It lookes very similar to the gouge the guy is using in the bottom photo (which I think is probably a spindle gouge). Rude's gouge was actually rectangular stock with a flute ground in it. The sides were groung back a little further than the standard spindle gouge. I believe his was one of the first bowl gouge designs.
The wings of a bowl gouge remove wood very quickly while the tip cuts at a shearing angle. This is why they are designed that way rather than like a rough out gouge with the wings being more vertical. it's the long straight wings on the bowl gouge that cause most of the catches with beginning turners.
The wings of a bowl gouge remove wood very quickly while the tip cuts at a shearing angle. This is why they are designed that way rather than like a rough out gouge with the wings being more vertical. it's the long straight wings on the bowl gouge that cause most of the catches with beginning turners.
I started turning about 30 years ago. It was all in conjunction with flat work. I knew no other woodturners. About two years ago I decided to try bowls. The first bowls I turned were with a 3/4" spindle gouge and a 1" shew. I guess I was mighty lucky beacause I had no problems what ever. I have had many more catches since I joined a club and learned how to do it right.
Stan
Stan
Just gotta stick in my 2 cents worth.
I'm totally with Michael on the "take care of the turner, the tool, and the wood" in that order. Use all the safety you can as a turner, choose an appropriate tool that is well maintained, and pay attention to what the wood wants to do.
As far as using a roughing gouge on a bowl, I think we have to be clear on whether we're using it on the interior or the exterior. I use spindle and roughing gouges all the time on the exterior of bowls. In essence, the outside of a bowl is simply a large spindle anyway.
Now on the inside, we're talking a different story. The only tools of mine that cross the plane of the inside would be scrapers and my bowl gouges.
You figure that the modern bowl gouge is just that, pretty modern. Rude and compatriates were working at the cutting edge (heh, heh) of turning in their day and they had to use what tools were available and modify/formulate their own to accomplish what they wanted. We get to benefit from their efforts, mistakes, and sucesses.
Hence, using a roughing gouge inside a bowl may have been the only way to go a while back but, now, we have better and safer methods.
Dietrich
I'm totally with Michael on the "take care of the turner, the tool, and the wood" in that order. Use all the safety you can as a turner, choose an appropriate tool that is well maintained, and pay attention to what the wood wants to do.
As far as using a roughing gouge on a bowl, I think we have to be clear on whether we're using it on the interior or the exterior. I use spindle and roughing gouges all the time on the exterior of bowls. In essence, the outside of a bowl is simply a large spindle anyway.
Now on the inside, we're talking a different story. The only tools of mine that cross the plane of the inside would be scrapers and my bowl gouges.
You figure that the modern bowl gouge is just that, pretty modern. Rude and compatriates were working at the cutting edge (heh, heh) of turning in their day and they had to use what tools were available and modify/formulate their own to accomplish what they wanted. We get to benefit from their efforts, mistakes, and sucesses.
Hence, using a roughing gouge inside a bowl may have been the only way to go a while back but, now, we have better and safer methods.
Dietrich
I gotta disagree with you. The grain is running in a different direction.dkulze said:
The peeling cut made by the large spindle roughing gouge would, I believe, make it much more prone to catches and gouges. The smaller tine would be more at risk.
"That's what they all used up until a few dozen years ago"
We discuss this as though the turners of yesterday never had a catch, and never broke a tool.
I can assure you they had.
25 years ago we didn't have internet forums, or cell phones, or airbags in our cars. People got along just fine. But if technology can produce tools to improve our lives, or to increase productivity, or improve safety, then we are fools not to take advantage of them.
MichaelMouse said:
George,
With the spindle orientation, the grain is always the same orientation to the tool. With bowl turning the grain rotates, hence the oncoming face grain every 180'. Couple that with a void, and/or less than stellar technique....
Nobody is saying it can't be done. If you want to do it feel free. It's a technique that is more likely to injure a newcomer to the field. Particularly if they use a roughing gouge instead of a continental and the tang snaps.
Here is the picture of a modern version of the big shallow gouge in a Kelton Ultimate handle. It was milled from 7/8†round bar. The tang is ¾†diameter. It was made from A-11 steel. If it snaps off at the tang, the tool rest may go down with it.
This is a serious tool for experienced bowl turners. Since the cutting edge is so wide, the catch may be spectacular in newbie’s hand. It is not a safe tool to use to rough out not yet round blanks. If you can’t bring the tool rest close, I don’t think this is a good choice.
With the price of this gouge, I don’t think it should be included in the beginner’s starter set. For beginners, we all get catches in the learning process. There is no reason to take the extra risk in using a regular spindle roughing gouge on side grain bowls.
This gouge is on loan to me. If any of you tool junkie wants one, you can email me. I have absolutely no financial interest in this gouge.
Gordon
This is a serious tool for experienced bowl turners. Since the cutting edge is so wide, the catch may be spectacular in newbie’s hand. It is not a safe tool to use to rough out not yet round blanks. If you can’t bring the tool rest close, I don’t think this is a good choice.
With the price of this gouge, I don’t think it should be included in the beginner’s starter set. For beginners, we all get catches in the learning process. There is no reason to take the extra risk in using a regular spindle roughing gouge on side grain bowls.
This gouge is on loan to me. If any of you tool junkie wants one, you can email me. I have absolutely no financial interest in this gouge.
Gordon
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It's All in the Presentation - but risky....
While I have less than a year of wood turning experience, I've just gotta jump in on this. I've been told that a roughing gouge is not suitable for bowl work. Then I read MMs posts that, while he never recommended using a roughing gouge for bowl work, tell me it's primarily an issue of how you present the edge to the material. Following his recommended methods for presentation, I have learned to use my RN Tools roughing gouge to rough out the interior of my bowls. It's faster, quite clean in terms of the rough finish it leaves, and unless I use the tool incorrectly it never catches. It's not that I disagree with the other points suggesting that it's probably safer to use a bowl gouge, but you can get a pretty nasty catch with a bowl gouge if you're not paying attention to the tool's edge and how it's presentation to the work changes throughout the cut. Hey, MM, if you haven't already done so I'd sure like to see a book published with some of your points of view (in your refreshing straight forward manner) on the methods of controlling the working edge of a turning tool.
While I have less than a year of wood turning experience, I've just gotta jump in on this. I've been told that a roughing gouge is not suitable for bowl work. Then I read MMs posts that, while he never recommended using a roughing gouge for bowl work, tell me it's primarily an issue of how you present the edge to the material. Following his recommended methods for presentation, I have learned to use my RN Tools roughing gouge to rough out the interior of my bowls. It's faster, quite clean in terms of the rough finish it leaves, and unless I use the tool incorrectly it never catches. It's not that I disagree with the other points suggesting that it's probably safer to use a bowl gouge, but you can get a pretty nasty catch with a bowl gouge if you're not paying attention to the tool's edge and how it's presentation to the work changes throughout the cut. Hey, MM, if you haven't already done so I'd sure like to see a book published with some of your points of view (in your refreshing straight forward manner) on the methods of controlling the working edge of a turning tool.
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Steven and Martin, I think you want to go look at the the grain in that long spindle and then across the faceplate. If you do, you'll find that rounding down and over the end of a piece along the grain is exactly the same presentation as cutting bottom to rim on its larger version, the cross-grain bowl. Same rules apply, sweep and whittle your way down as you establish a surface for your bevel, then peel at will.
The argument from tangs is mechanically foolish. We're not pulling nails after all, we're slicing wood, so if we don't dummy up and get the tool under a lump or foolishly set our rest far enough away to give mechanical advantage to the piece rather than the operator, then stuff the end into the wood in a way that wouldn't be a good cut with any gouge, we're good.
As a bit of history, the original "bowl gouge" did not come with long wings. That method of grinding was gradually adopted to make up for its shortcoming, the unequal thickness of metal on the sides and bottom due to its cylindrical shape. Folks would get heel bruises trying to go around tight inside curves, so they sacrificed stability for utility and started using it against a "tool lean" rather than a "tool rest."
The argument from tangs is mechanically foolish. We're not pulling nails after all, we're slicing wood, so if we don't dummy up and get the tool under a lump or foolishly set our rest far enough away to give mechanical advantage to the piece rather than the operator, then stuff the end into the wood in a way that wouldn't be a good cut with any gouge, we're good.
As a bit of history, the original "bowl gouge" did not come with long wings. That method of grinding was gradually adopted to make up for its shortcoming, the unequal thickness of metal on the sides and bottom due to its cylindrical shape. Folks would get heel bruises trying to go around tight inside curves, so they sacrificed stability for utility and started using it against a "tool lean" rather than a "tool rest."
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
My argument against using the rough out gouge for bowls is that it's too easy get the cut up on one of the upper portions of the u. This then becomes an unsupported edge and the wood pulls it down and you get a catch.
Like the others I'm not saying it can't be done because I have used the tool for turning bowls to see how it works. However the long cutting edge can start taking a lot of wood and try to twist the tool which can lead to a catch. This is similar to using a really big skew on a large piece of wood. It wants to take a really big bite and you have to fight the forces applied.
I wouldn't normally worry about this so much but every since I started reading these news groups there have been many many beginners with brocken or bent rough out gouges. That's the main reason I don't recommend it. Not that it won't work, it's just that experience has show that beginners have trouble using this tool for bowls without damaging the tool.
Like the others I'm not saying it can't be done because I have used the tool for turning bowls to see how it works. However the long cutting edge can start taking a lot of wood and try to twist the tool which can lead to a catch. This is similar to using a really big skew on a large piece of wood. It wants to take a really big bite and you have to fight the forces applied.
I wouldn't normally worry about this so much but every since I started reading these news groups there have been many many beginners with brocken or bent rough out gouges. That's the main reason I don't recommend it. Not that it won't work, it's just that experience has show that beginners have trouble using this tool for bowls without damaging the tool.
You guys came through!!
Gee, what responses. Isn’t it amazing… the opinion thing. I’ve seen some really great info from safety as well as efficiency. I’ve got to tell you, I watched Michael’s videos more than a few times trying to figure out the gouge. I agree with everyone for the most part, but I can see that with proper presentation the roughing gouge ground and presented correctly can make a pretty good addition as a bowl turning tool (only on the exterior). Now, don’t get me wrong, but if Michael can do it, so can someone else. After all, this is how most of us have learned and this my quest for the answer is how I got here. I don’t know about the rest of you but I’m trying to avoid a catch every time I turn and I still destroy a piece every now and then. Gordon’s gouge actually looks very doable. It appears to have small shoulders and a grind that is a bit less risky in my opinion. As an added not I noticed in L’ville Neil Scobie and I think T.Bosch used some differing grinds on the interior of bowls that produced some impressive results. Those tools looked like deep fluted bowl gouges but that was past a day ago so don’t hold me to that observation. Of course, these tools were in good hands. Thanks for the feedback and if anyone else wants to pipe in, I’m listening.
Mike
Gee, what responses. Isn’t it amazing… the opinion thing. I’ve seen some really great info from safety as well as efficiency. I’ve got to tell you, I watched Michael’s videos more than a few times trying to figure out the gouge. I agree with everyone for the most part, but I can see that with proper presentation the roughing gouge ground and presented correctly can make a pretty good addition as a bowl turning tool (only on the exterior). Now, don’t get me wrong, but if Michael can do it, so can someone else. After all, this is how most of us have learned and this my quest for the answer is how I got here. I don’t know about the rest of you but I’m trying to avoid a catch every time I turn and I still destroy a piece every now and then. Gordon’s gouge actually looks very doable. It appears to have small shoulders and a grind that is a bit less risky in my opinion. As an added not I noticed in L’ville Neil Scobie and I think T.Bosch used some differing grinds on the interior of bowls that produced some impressive results. Those tools looked like deep fluted bowl gouges but that was past a day ago so don’t hold me to that observation. Of course, these tools were in good hands. Thanks for the feedback and if anyone else wants to pipe in, I’m listening.
Mike
MichaelMouse said:
I agree with what you say in the quote. The distinction that folks are trying to make [and in how many threads now that this topic has been beaten to death
], is folks that enter the hobby may not be aware of the best practices you mentioned. What's worse is if they try to use it in the way that nobody recommends - the same approach one would attack a spindle. Foolish? certainly, but it happens often. Just ask Craft Supplies how many broken gouges they receive. In regards to the grain orientation, I think the spindle analogy would be to alternate between a shearing cut pushing to the side and a straight on planing cut. Which if memory serves, *somebody* claimed Bill G was doing when he broke his rouging gouge on that large spindle blank. If I recall *somebody* cited that as the technique that broke the gouge.
As I mentioned above, I think that a continental gouge is better suited, and I agree with the comments above that the lack of wings makes it less prone to catch. I do know that I would not use my 3/4" Sorby roughing gouge for the technique that you promote for bowl turning. For one, it has more of a vee shape, so the cutting surface would be minimal, and the wings are too prominent in my opinion. The tang is quite narrow. My 3/4" Sorby is definitely a Spindle Roughing Gouge.
My preference for roughing is a 3/4" bowl gouge that I have with Mahoney style grind. I can setup the blank between centers, grab the handle with my left hand, shaft with my right, and do a nice push cut presenting a large cutting surface to the wood for roughing the outside profile. The cut is much like what you advocate. There is a large cutting surface, I have a stable bevel, and I'm out of the way of the blank since my body is to the right of the blank. If I hit an unexpected knot, void, etc. I have a 3/4" shaft on the tool. I prefer RPMs a bit higher than what you run, but I'm not trying to aim my shavings for a burlap bag.
I prefer to make a mess .
Bill Grumbine
In Memorium
Martin Braun said:In regards to the grain orientation, I think the spindle analogy would be to alternate between a shearing cut pushing to the side and a straight on planing cut. Which if memory serves, *somebody* claimed Bill G was doing when he broke his rouging gouge on that large spindle blank. If I recall *somebody* cited that as the technique that broke the gouge.
Yeah, its amazing how *somebody* knows so much he knows what goes in on shops thousands of miles away from him. Of course, I keep forgetting he knows it all. If you don't believe it just ask him and he will tell you. Then again, I do seem to have a problem with mice in my shop...
I've stayed out of this discussion because there is not really a discussion. But since my name has been invoked...
On the one side there are genuine questions. On the other, there is preaching and an inability to see the reality of the situation. One person says it is safe to the exclusion of other methods, and denigrates the many people who do very well with those methods. He conveniently ignores that history (which he is fond of citing) does not play out the way he thinks. As things stand now, this is a hobby of self taught people using power equipment. For the past "few thousand years", this occupation has been a trade passed down from master to apprentice under close supervision, and it has not been until the last hundred or so that real power has been available.
Experienced people can cut on the outside of a bowl with a spindle roughing gouge. Experienced people can cut on the outside of a bowl with just about anything. The vast majority of experienced people have chosen to go the route of the modern bowl gouge, which the Mouse loves to hate. Given the tenor of most of his posting on this, it is hard to tell what or who he hates more, the gouge or the people using it. That is his perogative. But it is not his perogative to be so dismissive of methods that work in promoting what is an unsafe practice for people just starting out.
Anyone - everyone - has accidents on the lathe. There are only two types of people who don't - those who don't turn, and liars. Minimizing those accidents is important from the standpoint of enjoying this hobby (or vocation), but even more important, from the standpoint of avoiding injury. I could bring people into my shop and teach them how to use a spindle roughing gouge to shape the outside of a bowl. I am not going to do that, now or ever. It is a bad idea for people starting out. They have not developed the skill set needed to master the tool properly. By the time most people get that skill set, they are ready to move on to modern tool. Just because something is well established in antiquity does not make it superior. My neighbors are riding around in horse drawn buggies. Cold in the winter, hot in the summer, slow and unable to move much in the way of materiel. Horses and buggies have been around since the beginning of recorded history and then some. I'll take my truck thank you.
Personally, I do not understand why the Mouse is so vehement about the use of a spindle roughing gouge over a bowl gouge. He decries the shortcomings of a bowl gouge, but I can't find them. It is probably the most versatile tool in my turning aresenal. I have taught and demonstrated its use for thousands of people now, and a lot of them seem to think that I know of what I speak regarding it. There are others who have "established pedigrees" to use a phrase already used in this thread who think along similar lines. Against that we have a man who hides his identity behind a ficticious screen name and takes pot shots at people who use their real names and who have established reputations in the turning community. If I were a newbie coming into this, I would be very wary of accepting information from someone like that, regardless of the subject, especially when it is served up with a very liberal dose of hubris.
Bill
I can't read other's mind. I am talking about me.
Skew has a reputation of being a more challenging tool to master. When my first piece after masking the evidence of "design opportunities" with the skew; I was so pround. I fell I was standing above those who are still intimated by this tool for the advanced.
Of course, after watching the live demos at the Club, symposiums, I am humbled and opened my eyes. After admiring the works at the instant gallery, I think I may have started too late to finish scratching the surface of woodturning.
Gordon
Skew has a reputation of being a more challenging tool to master. When my first piece after masking the evidence of "design opportunities" with the skew; I was so pround. I fell I was standing above those who are still intimated by this tool for the advanced.
Of course, after watching the live demos at the Club, symposiums, I am humbled and opened my eyes. After admiring the works at the instant gallery, I think I may have started too late to finish scratching the surface of woodturning.
Gordon
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john lucas said:
Well, you bring up a good point. Somebody can suffer a thoughtless or careless moment and louse up almost anything. Then get defensive when the laws of Physics and good turning practice are presented to suggest what happened and the way to avoid repetition. Tang-phobes, please take a long nail and insert it in the end of a stick, which you may make as long as you care to. Lay the first half inch firmly across a fulcrum - tool rest will do, hold the handle, grab the end of the nail with pliers and twist downward. If you've got a hammer, strike it down anywhere forward of the fulcrum. Where's the bend?
The weakness in the straight-across grind as you indicate, is that it has almost no poke, merely peel. Means the entry angle must be on a fairly shallow slope to start the shaving. Definition of a peel. When there's a round contour on the edge of the gouge it's easier to poke in slowly and transition from narrow to broad peel, even when working 90 degrees to the grain, as on a vertical portion of a bowl. Answer can be to take up a gouge like the 35 in http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n28/MichaelMouse/?action=view¤t=35mmGougeRounding.flv or the forged you mention, http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n28/MichaelMouse/?action=view¤t=Gouge101.flv which give a bit of curved poke for starting, and clearance in two dimensions based on their geometry. Of course the round section and the necessity of not burying the nose and getting a catch does limit the width of shaving, which translates to depth of cut.
When we don't want a great depth of cut, no such impediment. We have all used a skew or beading tool to cut across grain, and we know that the two things we don't want to do are take too broad/deep a bite with a straighter edge, and as always we don't want to allow the point of first contact to become the deepest part of the cut - get under something. Why we cut downhill, after all. We can take a thin cut with the rougher by presenting the one curve we have on the straight-across rougher to make a controlled entry, and then roll up on that edge you fear so much, skewing the unrelieved corner to follow the cut as we do. On a bowl cut that keeps the trailing point above the curve of the piece, because we're cutting above centerline and can't go through our toolrest, and also because we are cutting smaller to larger, which places that corner in the smaller diameter. If we have the bevel on the surface, the gouge can't rotate the corner into wood, because it has the leading part and the constant angle bevel pushing back and being pushed outward by the rotation of the piece. Problem of cutting at 90 degrees to the grain with the roughing gouge is a bit like designing a fighter, where they can be so stable they're not maneuverable. Narrow gouges with variable grinds maneuver well because they are unstable, like the best fighter designs.
Our task is to fly each gouge as it wishes to be flown, or risk an unusual and unrecoverable attitude. Never, ever forgetting the first rule that when the houses keep getting bigger, we should pull back on the stick. Or, we could do what some suggest, and punch out.
MichaelMouse said:
I am nowhere as experienced as most of people hanging out here. My physic is rusty also.
I believe a gouge is only as strong as its weakest link. I think a lot of beginners start with the Harbor Freight 8-pc set. They are not known for quality or strength of the tool. I am sure they were subjected to a lot of misuse and abuse as we all learn. I have heard of them twisting, bending but seldom snapping at the tang with their round bar spindle gouges. I guess that is due to the tang end of the flute was not milled and have a larger cross section than the front end. The small gouge would vibrate and chatter before we stick the tool far enough to fail.
On the other hand, the cross section of a roughing gouge is much larger all the length till it tapers to the relative small cross section of the tang. The junction at the handle is the smallest cross section of the exposed steel section. I have never heard about any roughing gouge twist and bend; they always snap at the tang.
I admit this discussion is above my level of knowledge. I don’t have reference to support my pure assumption.
Gordon
<PS>I also think that I should clarify my comments about Harbor Freight tools. I think they have their place in woodturning, especially for those starting out without a tons of cash for all the tools they need (want). Averaging less than $5 a tool, it is a great bargain to learn sharpening. They may not hold the edge as well, but eventually we may want to add some better tools. The replaced HF tools may be converted to specialty scrapers. Sorry for rambling OT.
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
Micheal Your nail analogy doesn't work. If you get a good catch on a roughout gouge with 1" hanging over it will bend at the tang. I've seen it happen live in one of my classes and I've seen it in photographs on the web. The roughout gouge will not bend in it's U shaped portion. It almost always happens in the thinner shank.
john lucas said:
Been there, done that. That gouge is long gone and I haven't tried using a roughing gouge on a bowl since. The bowl gouge was designed for that type of work and it is my tool of choice.
Bill Grumbine said:
This is the one part of this thread I think we can all agree on
, unfortunately!
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john lucas said:
Sure it works. It shows where the majority of the force of a catch is absorbed by the resultant bend. Not that I've ever had a "good" catch, but no claim is made to this being other than a demonstration that the force of a catch is exerted primarily ahead of the fulcrum.
It is still the best policy to ensure that there will be no point where the edge gets underneath the wood by staying high on convex shapes and swinging the gouge through in successive steps to establish round. That's true for any gouge. Of course only a fool would use the tool other than on its side for such an operation. Once the bevel has a reference, you can roll up on the edge, using the bevel as a cut limit, while precluding getting under the work.
This topic must have done the go-around by now, I've seen it on this forum before. It reminds me of a saying I've heard at work the saying is about Quality Assurance Insepctors, it goes as follows:
Arguing with an Insepctor is like Mud Wrestling with a pig, after a while you discover that the pig enjoys it.
My take on this topic is that I like to use a Bowl gouge, I'm not going to list why, it's already been said. I would encourage newbie turners to learn to use a Bowl gouge when turning bowls and a Spindle roughing gouge for spindle work.
Having said that, if a turner of experience wishes to have a different take on the use of said tools, that's up to him. Let's hope newbies do not get hurt using a Spindle gouge for bowl turning.
Nigel
Arguing with an Insepctor is like Mud Wrestling with a pig, after a while you discover that the pig enjoys it.
My take on this topic is that I like to use a Bowl gouge, I'm not going to list why, it's already been said. I would encourage newbie turners to learn to use a Bowl gouge when turning bowls and a Spindle roughing gouge for spindle work.
Having said that, if a turner of experience wishes to have a different take on the use of said tools, that's up to him. Let's hope newbies do not get hurt using a Spindle gouge for bowl turning.
Nigel
'nuff said. Thanks folks. I'll agree with NBHowe. My real question related to "what" type gouge was being used as opposed to the bowl gouge. The flute wasn't familar. I appreciate the information.NBHowe said:
Mike L.
Of interest
For those who would be interested.
http://www.wnywoodturners.com/nl/A personal view of bowl gouges.htm
For those who would be interested.
http://www.wnywoodturners.com/nl/A personal view of bowl gouges.htm