Preserving Flame color of Box Elder

[Charles M Gillingham]

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to preserve the red color in Flame Box Elder. I know light tends to fade it. I'd also like to know the definitive answer as to what causes this condition. I've read stress and/or insect infestation. Thank you.

Charles Gillingham

 

[Richard Coers]

Keep the finished piece in a closet. I made a pen for my son, solid bright red at the start. Now it's basically salmon colored.

 

[john lucas]

If you do a search you'll find a thread on this. I tested lots of products and nothing I tried worked if the subject was put In direct sunlight The best product made it last 2 days max. Keep it out of direct light and it lasts for many years. The only way I know of making it last is to spray over it with the same color musing an air brush and metallic dyes. I have 2 pieces where I did that and they are over 10 years old and look like day one

 

[hockenbery]

I have only anecdotal evidence.
Bleaching seems to set the colors and make them last a longer
Finishes with UV Inhibiters seem to make the colors last longer.

Like John said paint the red red.
I saw Binh Pho do this and it was really easy to do when the airbrush was in Binh's hand
The airbrush in my hand Produces more of a red barn effect.

It is going to fade sometime. Be sure you have a great shape that will look good regardless of its color.

Al

 

[Bill Boehme]

I've thought about using red aniline dye on the red part, but I haven't yet because it seems a bit like forgery to do so. Bleach the white. Keep it away from sunlight and oxygen (the second part is sort of tough).

I read a report from a research project that indicated that the red appears to be produced b the tree because it has been shown that the bacteria/fungi theories have been demonstrated to not be the cause. There is almost no research on this subject because nobody other than woodturners care about the cause of the red. I don't recall where I saw the report, but if you search my posts, I think that there is a link to the report.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I found my post that has a link to the report here in post #21: http://www.aawforum.org/vbforum/showthread.php?11002-Flame-Out!-Pedestal-bowl&p=100740#post100740

Read the entire thread because it has a lot of other useful information and other links.

 

[john lucas]

I had a friend who used to find and turn a lot of box elder. He said you can find it in places where the tree was stressed. Next to a barn or along power line right of ways. He said he never found a box elder tree in the woods that had color.
I tried bleach along with uv Inhibitors. When subjected to direct sunlight for one or two days nothing worked. The bleach does in erase the contrast which makes the red seem to pop. Airbrushing the color takes practice. It's challenging to get the color right a d then you have to get the fade from dark to light so it does t look fake. Quite challenging.

 

[Charles M Gillingham]

I found my post that has a link to the report here in post #21: http://www.aawforum.org/vbforum/showthread.php?11002-Flame-Out!-Pedestal-bowl&p=100740#post100740

Read the entire thread because it has a lot of other useful information and other links.

Thanks for the link. I'll read through the paper and the thread. I have a lot of this wood on hand and it is a joy to work but I hate to see it fade away in time. I wouldn't attempt to try to mimic it. Just not my approach to the work. I'm pretty lazy when it comes to a finish material and apply a good bit of local bees wax and that all. I'll have to experiment with a few things.

Bleaching? Clorox? Bleach the red and the lighter color or just the white? I'll try it but it wouldn't have been a course of action I would have thought of. Thanks you all for your ideas.

cmg

 

[john lucas]

Use a two part wood bleach. Clorox won't do a ything. Just wipe it on liberally it won't change the reds orient browns but wl change the light wood. It might take 4 or 5 coats. It says I. The instructions to neutralize the bleach with vinegar when done but I've never done that and haven't had a problem

 

[Charles M Gillingham]

Use a two part wood bleach. Clorox won't do a ything. Just wipe it on liberally it won't change the reds orient browns but wl change the light wood. It might take 4 or 5 coats. It says I. The instructions to neutralize the bleach with vinegar when done but I've never done that and haven't had a problem

Thanks John! That got me going in the right direction. I needed some wood bleach for another project and your comment gave me enough information to search what else I needed.

cmg

 

[Grant Wilkinson]

I may just have gotten lucky with the small piece that I did some years ago, but it has kept its colour. I finished it with varnish sold for finishing boats. It has a strong UV inhibitor in it. As I say, YMMV, but you may want to give it a try.

 

[john lucas]

Grant You probably weren't lucky. If you keep the wood out of direct sunlight it will last a long time.

 

[Bob Howell]

Today I heard Bull Frog 50 SPF sunscreen slows fadding. Seems it is alcohol base so is compatible with many finishes. I have not tried it. Maybe someone here has experience.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Today I heard Bull Frog 50 SPF sunscreen slows fadding. Seems it is alcohol base so is compatible with many finishes. I have not tried it. Maybe someone here has experience.

No, you're supposed to put it on yourself so that you DON'T turn red.

It is not alcohol based. The list of ingredients looks like something you might not want stirred in with your favorite finish.

Ingredients
Active Ingredients: Avobenzone (3% Sunscreen), Homosalate (12% Sunscreen), Octisalate (5% Sunscreen), Octocrylene (5% Sunscreen); Inactive Ingredients: Water, Cyclopentasiloxane, VP/Eicosene Copolymer, Nylon-12, Cetyl Dimethicone, Glyceryl Stearate, Metyl gluceth-20, Camellia Sinensis (Green Tea) Leaf Extract, Cameillia Oleifera (Green Tea) Leaf Extract, Saccharum Officinarum (Sugar Cane) Extract, Citrus Medica Limonum (Lemon) Fruit Extract, Citrus Aurantium Dulcis (Orange) Fruit Extract,Pyrus Malus (Apple) Fruit Extract, Glycerin, Aloe Vera (Aloe Barbadensis) Leaf Juice, Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E), Cetearyl Alcohol, Lavandula Angustifolia (Lavender) Flower Extract, Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Flower Extract, Rosmarinus Officinalis (Rosemary) Leaf Extract, Acacia Farnesiana Flower Extract, Phenoxyethanol, Polyacrylamide, Steareth 21, Fragrance, Propylene Glycol, EDTA (Ethylenediamine-Tetra-Acetic Acid), Potassium Hydroxide, Propylparaben, Benzyl Alcohol,Dimethicone/Vinyl Dimethicone Copolymer, Laureth 7, Isopropyl Myristate ((283-047))

Cetearyl Alcohol is basically a fat that keeps emulsions from separating. Benzyl Alcohol occurs naturally in plants and flowers and is used in cosmetics to prevent bacteria from growing. There is less than 1% in this product.

 

[Dean Center]

A fellow I know turned a lot of flame box elder inserts for fly reel seats and finished them with CA. When the subject of fading came up on another forum, he posted a photo of an insert he had done 3 years earlier that had been sitting in bright but indirect light above his desk. It still had nice color. I wonder if there are unsuspected factors at work. Maybe climate where the piece is turned or kept, or location or environmental aspects of the original wood, or the particular type of cyanoacrylate used. His wood came from a very, very old tree that grew across the street from his house in Helena, Montana, which is blessed with a lot of hot air every 2 years when the legislature is in session and a lot of inertia the rest of the time.

 

[Bob Howell]

No, you're supposed to put it on yourself so that you DON'T turn red.

It is not alcohol based. The list of ingredients looks like something you might not want stirred in with your favorite finish.

Ingredients
Active Ingredients: Avobenzone (3% Sunscreen), Homosalate (12% Sunscreen), Octisalate (5% Sunscreen), Octocrylene (5% Sunscreen); Inactive Ingredients: Water, Cyclopentasiloxane, VP/Eicosene Copolymer, Nylon-12, Cetyl Dimethicone, Glyceryl Stearate, Metyl gluceth-20, Camellia Sinensis (Green Tea) Leaf Extract, Cameillia Oleifera (Green Tea) Leaf Extract, Saccharum Officinarum (Sugar Cane) Extract, Citrus Medica Limonum (Lemon) Fruit Extract, Citrus Aurantium Dulcis (Orange) Fruit Extract,Pyrus Malus (Apple) Fruit Extract, Glycerin, Aloe Vera (Aloe Barbadensis) Leaf Juice, Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E), Cetearyl Alcohol, Lavandula Angustifolia (Lavender) Flower Extract, Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Flower Extract, Rosmarinus Officinalis (Rosemary) Leaf Extract, Acacia Farnesiana Flower Extract, Phenoxyethanol, Polyacrylamide, Steareth 21, Fragrance, Propylene Glycol, EDTA (Ethylenediamine-Tetra-Acetic Acid), Potassium Hydroxide, Propylparaben, Benzyl Alcohol,Dimethicone/Vinyl Dimethicone Copolymer, Laureth 7, Isopropyl Myristate ((283-047))

Cetearyl Alcohol is basically a fat that keeps emulsions from separating. Benzyl Alcohol occurs naturally in plants and flowers and is used in cosmetics to prevent bacteria from growing. There is less than 1% in this product.

I was surprised too, but they say it works. Several in the GAW are using it. Time for an experiment. That is the only way we learn. Remember the first guy to eat an oyster.

 

[john lucas]

I spend a lot of time on a bicycle out in the sun of course. I buy high rated protectants like SPF 50. You will still get sunburned if you stay out long enough. It does greatly slow down how soon you get burned but doesn't actually prevent it. I don't know what the would be similar in the UV type finishes that I used for my tests and where they would stand as related to SPF 50 sunscreen. However I suspect people who swear it works never get the pieces out in direct sun for very long. As I stated before. In indirect light the color will last for many years no matter what finish you use.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Sunscreen lasts for about two hours in bright sunlight -- that is how often the label on Bullfrog says to reapply it. All the tea leaf extract and fruit juice in it are there just to make you smell better and attract insects.