Removing wood fast.....question for the day.

[Doug Rasmussen]

Timothy, I completely agree about sharpening. Again, a skill, not a speed (get it done quick) thing. I enjoy skills training—my tools are scary sharp, and are resharpened as soon as the thrill is gone. I don’t use signature, exotic gouges, just oneway’s mastercut. Very good steel and a flute profile I feel is among the best.

Marc,

When you talk about sharpening do you mean taking them to the grinding wheel for every sharpening? My concept of sharpening is fine grit grinding to establish basic edge profile then hone to final edge. Repeat sharpenings would be hone only up to a point where grinding might be necessary again. Odie may be the only turner I'm aware of using that method.

If I was conspiracy theorist I might be tempted to suggest the CBN wheel and grinding jig people are the ones promoting all this grinding.

 

[Michael Anderson]

If I was conspiracy theorist I might be tempted to suggest the CBN wheel and grinding jig people are the ones promoting all this grinding.

Kind of a silly point though. What is the functional difference of a honed edge vs a fine grit ground (600g edge). Unless it’s a final finishing cut, that honed edge won’t last for very long. I would rather get 4x the amount of turning (time efficiency) done with a tool that is almost as sharp as a honed edge, than get a few super sharp passes, stop and hone, a few more passes, stop and hone, etc… If this was hand carving then absolutely, but for turning it doesn’t really matter.

 

[Gabriel Hoff]

My use of the term ‘speed’ is in reference to elapsed time, not the rpm of the lathe. I have no issue with spinning a bowl at >1000 rpm. The speed that works best for the cuts and technique used is the best speed (rpm).

That back cut for hollowing end grain forms is brilliant! It‘s a cut that requires skill and practice. One could accomplish much the same thing with a big forstner drill (not really), but that back cut is really sweet. Why search for an easier way, when the tool in your hand is capable, clean and efficient?

Timothy, I completely agree about sharpening. Again, a skill, not a speed (get it done quick) thing. I enjoy skills training—my tools are scary sharp, and are resharpened as soon as the thrill is gone. I don’t use signature, exotic gouges, just oneway’s mastercut. Very good steel and a flute profile I feel is among the best.

That’s good to know Marc. I was talking about lathe speed, I don’t think anyone should go fast with time because it might be unsafe if things are rushed. Sharpening is very important, I love when I take that first cut with a freshly sharpened gouge!

 

[Dean Center]

I've been busy with other stuff the last few days, so I'm late to the party. I guess I don't pay too much attention to how fast I'm removing wood, unless I'm turning green to finished, but I've seen some really impressive wood removal.

Watching experts turn, it's very impressive how quickly they remove wood. Since they use a variety of methods, a lot of that ability comes from, well, ability. As Odie always emphasizes, they know how to put the cutting edge on the wood to get the best effect.

There seem to be 2 basic strategies:
1. Take a biggish gouge and take giant bites.
2. Stuart Batty, on the other hand, argues in favor of his 40/40 grind and a smaller slicing cut. He makes the case that this is 'faster' in the end because the hog it out approach requires the turner to spend time cleaning up the surface, while his method leaves a clean surface off the gouge. Both approaches are very, very fast, in expert hands.

In you haven't watched Glenn Lucas' youtube video where he shoots shavings right into a dumpster, you should. He may regret making it, but it's still super cool.

 

[Tom Lucas]

I learned seeing Raffan do the cut in a demo. Not as fast fast Raffan.

A great technique to have in your arsenal if you do endgrain holowing.
I use it a bit for hollowing endgrain to about 4” deep. Great for goblets scoops boxes etc.
works well at hollowing a space wider than the opening. I finish the surface with a Hunter #4.
I loose the fulcrum if try to go too deep.

These are few gifs from a demo I did on gouges.
The back hollowing starts after I made a few passes cutting to the side with the tip of the gouge.
This is a 3/8 spindle gouge. 1/2 takes a bigger shaving. It’s a peeling cut done with the wing.
To avoid a catch keep the gouge tip from touching the wood.
Drill a hole to depth View attachment 55605 then start opening it up View attachment 55606
then bigger shavings. View attachment 55607

I'm going to have to give it a try.

 

[Steve Chaplin]

Batty uses a 3/4" gouge and takes a pretty big cut. It isn't quite as fast as a peeling cut with same sized gouge with a long wing such as an Ellsworth grind. But it does leave a smoother surface because the nose planes and the wing peels resulting in a large peeling cut but with a planing finish. The last cut is taken slower as that leaves a better surface.

 

[Michael Anderson]

Here is an old link on this forum about back hollowing. As an aside, wild to see Captain Eddie’s name in the comments. I’ve seen some of his videos on YouTube but have never seen him around here before.

 

[hockenbery]

I'm going to have to give it a try.

It’s something i do mostly by feel you can’t see in there.
It’s a fun cut.

Remember Do not let the gouge tip contact the wood.

 

[Norm Marentette]

I have been turning for about 3 years now and agree again with Marc. I used to rush the process, now I am beginning to take my time and enjoy the process even more. Finally got brave enough and turned a large hickory bowl 15 inch diameter range ( like most of what I turn) that had warped and had many defects so I took my time and recut it to the thinnest wall thickness of 1/8 to 3/16". Always wouldn't dare cut it thinner than 5/8" thick. Have never turned anything over 700 rpm. (mostly 500 range). Sharpened tools constantly that maybe this was" the final cut". Turned out to be the most rewarding and most like of all my pieces yet. Everybody wants it. Take your time and enjoy the process.

 

[Marc Banka]

Marc,

When you talk about sharpening do you mean taking them to the grinding wheel for every sharpening? My concept of sharpening is fine grit grinding to establish basic edge profile then hone to final edge. Repeat sharpenings would be hone only up to a point where grinding might be necessary again. Odie may be the only turner I'm aware of using that method.

If I was conspiracy theorist I might be tempted to suggest the CBN wheel and grinding jig people are the ones promoting all this grinding.

I’m not at all thrifty with my gouges, am sure I remove a bit more steel than needed.

Last evening, spurred on by your question, I took some measurements of my gouge, the one I use for 90% of my work. A 40/40 Wolverine grind. Second bevel is 30 degrees, third bevel is 18 degrees, and cutting bevel is 40.

For shaping, on the coarse wheel, 80 grit cbn, I grind the secondary bevel right up to the edge and make any corrections to the shape. Then grind the third (tertiary) bevel at 18 degrees. Then I sharpen, at 40 degrees for my cutting bevel.

For sharpening, only the first bevel, is sharpened on a 180 wheel, also cbn.
On a freshly shaped gouge the cutting bevel is .040” wide. I resharpen till the bevel gets to about .25 wide, then reshape.

The 180 grit cbn is a bit coarse for sharpening, I know. It takes a very light touch in such a thin bevel. I sharpen till I get a thin burr across the entire edge. I think I get about 6 sharpenings before cutting back the 2nd and 3rd bevels.

I‘ve observed, and maybe I’m the last one to notice, that edge wear happens on both sides of the bevel. That metal is removed from the flute side, the one we don’t sharpen. It does get rounded. So, it’s possible then that when sharpening, especially when honing, that the included angle is greater than you think. Could be + 10 or 15 degrees. The issue doesn’t exist for scews or kitchen knives where both sides of the bevel are sharpened. The only reasonable solution to me, is to take off more material than necessary to true up just the outside. It‘s necessary to shorten the flute a bit, the only way to get it back to true.

Marc

 

[robo hippy]

As for the 'ring' type tools for hollowing, I found the chip limiter to be a pain. Seems like it would always plug up, take too big of a bite, or not bite at all. Never could solve that. I would love to experiment more with hook tools, in particular, for end grain work.

I will maintain that the fastest hollowing of a bowl depends more on the horsepower/torque of your lathe, and how much steel you can put into the wood without bogging the lathe down. While the swept back grinds do provide more surface area for cutting than the 40/40 grind does, on the same lathe, the 40/40 will take a deeper cut than the swept back gouge will. This would again be determined by how much pressure you are putting into the cut, not the particular shape of the cutting edge.

The 'upside down/backward' cut used for hollowing boxes is interesting, and I need to learn how to perfect it. For sure, a 1/4 inch gouge will not hollow out more than about an inch on the lathe, even with gentle cuts. Best tip I ever got came from one of the recent Raffen videos and he made the comment, echoed by Al, "do not let the tip contact the wood'. Cut with the wing. More practice needed....

robo hippy

 

[William Rogers]

It's apparent from this thread all turners are not interested in the quick removal, and that's fine too.

I am not really interested in “fast”. Lately I have been using a carbide tool for bulk removal. For me it saves on my bowl gouges needing sharpening until the final cuts.

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

A 3/4” bowl gouge will remove wood pretty fast.

 

[Monty Ivy]

Speed = power or maybe it's better expressed as RPM=torque. Higher RPM's make it possible to move more wood. HOWEVER. The guidelines (rules) are there for a reason. Much depends on the context or scenario you find yourself in. Quality of the wood, balance of the blank, green vs dry, are all contributing factors. As the tool pusher, your experience and judgement are what really matters.

The faster you go, the bigger the potential trouble. With 20# of wood turning at 2500 rpm a catch is going to have significantly more authority than the same catch at 900 rpm. Much like an automobile crash at highway speed vs a parking lot fender bender.

I seldom find it necessary to exceed 1200 rpm when roughing green wood. Tool choice as mentioned above makes a difference. Most of my roughing is with a 5/8 gouge. 3/4 for larger green work.

Efficiency of your cuts probably make as much or more difference than spindle speed. Consistency is the word for fast removal of material. I've read discussions about making every cut a finish cut. Horse hockey. When I'm roughing a blank for drying, I'm not terribly concerned with tool finish. All of that will wait for the 2nd turning.

 

[hughie]

The Pro-Forme is an interesting tool. Basically it appears to be a very high positive cutting geometry. That geometry equates to a free cutting tool that can be difficult to hand control because of its tendency to self feed. The hood over the tool limits the self feeding making it feasible for hand guiding. This is the same well proven cutting geometry that's used in CNC and mechanically guided tools where the tool's position is rigidly controlled against self feeding so no need for the hood. OT uses high positives too.

Googling on the tool's name brings a number of Youtubes.

These type tools seem to be an Australia/New Zealand type thing. American turners more favor gouges with special grinds, riding the bevel, etc, etc. I wonder why and kind of unfortunate in my opinion .

The Pro-Forme works well and easily gets around many of the issues of small entry holes. True it does tend to self feed especially on green and soft species. But for me I find the self feed is easy to handle and is readily controllable when the guard/shield is closed down. Perhaps the popularity is due to preponderance of hard to very hard hardwoods here in Australia. I know in my wood pile it would be 80% dry hardwood and the softer species would be Redgum and Blackwood aka Acacia Melanoxylon
The Pro-Forme and the Wunderkut 10 come into their own as the cutters are made much more durable via the hardness and in the case of the Rolly Munro hollower Wunderkut 10 its tungsten carbide, this does result in much longer edge life.
I suspect my likening of the fast removal goes back to many years of employment in the food packaging industry where often the day is measure by minutes.
Interestingly, the Munro 6mm TCT un-sheilded you can ride the bevel and get very good results. But its not for everyone Rolly often demos this technique with the softer variety of wood.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

what tools work best for you when a lot of wood needs to be removed?

Getting back to Odie's original question.........

Other than the Pro-Forme tool Hughie showed and the idea of using large diameter Forstner type drill bits to clear material from the interior of a bowl (all?) the ideas have been related to using hand turning gouges. What about band sawing your blanks round? Tilt the table of your band saw to remove the majority of the exterior wood of a bowl. All the time I see videos where experienced turners are starting with odd shaped, squarish blanks, is it a sissy thing to band saw? Is roughing down odd shaped blanks with hand held gouges sort of a macho thing? You do need to have a final design in mind before you can saw to near net shape rather than letting the wood determine the design of the object.

What's with deep, tall hollow forms where gouges are used instead of drills? All this use of gouges where other methods may be more efficient brings up the issue of frequent sharpenings with your CBN wheels and special jigs. Maybe a complete object could be done without a pause for sharpening if only a minimal amount of material needs to be turned away?

 

[Marc Banka]

Starting with a round (ish) blank is easier than starting with square or other odd shapes. That said, I can true-up and shape the outside faster than you can with a saw. And, of course, you’ll still need the gouge to complete the form. Why use several tools and methods when one is faster and more satisfying?

Same for the interior. I’ll have most of the wood gone before you can make your set-up to save time and effort. And again, you can’t complete a bowl interior or even a tall form with the forstner bit. So, you’re again going to have to pick up a gouge.

Why the anti-gouge movement? Why look for tools to do what a gouge does so effectively?
The more time I spend with a gouge in my hand, the better I understand it and all it can do. The more I understand and make the gouge an extension of my hand, eye, and brain, the more satisfaction and excellence I achieve, and the greater satisfaction I enjoy. There are things that my gouge can’t do. For those things, I’ll seek out another tool.

So, my answer to the original question. If the gouge isn’t ‘fast’ enough, you might want to look at your technique. I think it’s the fastest, cleanest, and most efficient tool for the job.

 

[hockenbery]

What about band sawing your blanks round? Tilt the table of your band saw to remove the majority of the exterior wood of a bowl. All the time I see videos where experienced turners are starting with odd shaped, squarish blanks,

A lot of videos are more for show than practicality.

However, depending on the piece it can be much faster to turn it round than saw it round.
Large diameter pre round.

Turning square spindle stock round is almost always faster up to about 9” then cutting the corners off is better for me.

Bowl blanks I usually cut round on the bandsaw. I can turn a blank from a 6” dia half log 8” long faster than I can walk over to the bandsaw and cut it round. I don’t ever do this in demos because it is so easy to undercut a hard to see corner and send it flying.

When Phil Brown was alive he specialized in trumpet shaped bowls. He had a hinged circle cutting jig that let him cut blanks in a cone shape.

 

[Steve Chaplin]

Getting back to Odie's original question.........

Other than the Pro-Forme tool Hughie showed and the idea of using large diameter Forstner type drill bits to clear material from the interior of a bowl (all?) the ideas have been related to using hand turning gouges. What about band sawing your blanks round? Tilt the table of your band saw to remove the majority of the exterior wood of a bowl. All the time I see videos where experienced turners are starting with odd shaped, squarish blanks, is it a sissy thing to band saw? Is roughing down odd shaped blanks with hand held gouges sort of a macho thing? You do need to have a final design in mind before you can saw to near net shape rather than letting the wood determine the design of the object.

What's with deep, tall hollow forms where gouges are used instead of drills? All this use of gouges where other methods may be more efficient brings up the issue of frequent sharpenings with your CBN wheels and special jigs. Maybe a complete object could be done without a pause for sharpening if only a minimal amount of material needs to be turned away?

Bowl blanks need to be balanced enough to get the RPM to the point when a gouge can cut it effectively. If a blank is reasonably balanced a bandsaw is not needed. A lot depends on how much and how well chainsaw work is done on the log. I leave a lot of logs whole, or don't fully slab then so my bandsaw gets some use for blank prep. That takes time but saves chainsaw time.

Hollow forms require different techniques than side grain bowls. I like drilling a hole, then working a long wing gouge from there. I also use the Hunter Badger.
I would like to hear from turners doing large hollow forms with hollowing rigs and any tricks for speeding that up.

CBN sharpening should be quick. The sharpening station needs to be close. You can keep the grinder running. Most of my bowl gouges are in handles with collets so just a twist and the tool is out. I hand sharpen everything except long wing gouges so don't use a jig much.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

Starting with a round (ish) blank is easier than starting with square or other odd shapes. That said, I can true-up and shape the outside faster than you can with a saw. And, of course, you’ll still need the gouge to complete the form. Why use several tools and methods when one is faster and more satisfying?

Same for the interior. I’ll have most of the wood gone before you can make your set-up to save time and effort. And again, you can’t complete a bowl interior or even a tall form with the forstner bit. So, you’re again going to have to pick up a gouge.

Why the anti-gouge movement? Why look for tools to do what a gouge does so effectively?
The more time I spend with a gouge in my hand, the better I understand it and all it can do. The more I understand and make the gouge an extension of my hand, eye, and brain, the more satisfaction and excellence I achieve, and the greater satisfaction I enjoy. There are things that my gouge can’t do. For those things, I’ll seek out another tool.

So, my answer to the original question. If the gouge isn’t ‘fast’ enough, you might want to look at your technique. I think it’s the fastest, cleanest, and most efficient tool for the job.

I posted here because it seemed strange nobody had mentioned sawing the blanks to shape. Kinda hard to say if you guys/gals can rough a blank down faster with a gouge than sawing if it has hard knots or out of balance.

Nothing against gouges if you want to hand turn. I don't like hand turning. all my "turning" is done on CNC machines that allow me to do any shape in any wood, no matter how hard and/or difficult the wood is. CNC also can give as-cut surfaces needing little sanding. Sometimes I'll jokingly say I'd rather have two root canals without Novocain than hand turn. There was a time you had to have a Bill Gates budget for CNC, now you can be well equipped for the cost of a medium grade wood lathe and accessories.

All the gouge grinding would be an issue with me. CBN should be okay for roughing shapes in gouges, I'd prefer a fine grit composite wheel for frequent sharpening. Carbide is available, if somebody develops the Pro-Forme style tools with a small nose radius those could handle fine detail turning without the continual need to sharpen.

Design is my interest and CNC is what allows me to accomplish my designs that'd be impossible to hand turn.

Some turners enjoy the hand turning process and that's great.

 

[Steve Chaplin]

Nothing against gouges if you want to hand turn. I don't like hand turning. all my "turning" is done on CNC machines that allow me to do any shape in any wood, no matter how hard and/or difficult the wood is. CNC also can give as-cut surfaces needing little sanding. Sometimes I'll jokingly say I'd rather have two root canals without Novocain than hand turn. There was a time you had to have a Bill Gates budget for CNC, now you can be well equipped for the cost of a medium grade wood lathe and accessories.

So you have a 4 axis cnc router?
The ones I have seen are not that cheap, plus you have to purchase software which isn't cheap. For what I have in lathe and tools I might be able to buy one. But I enjoy holding a tool. Mostly I use CNCs for making templates for the router table, don't need the 4th axis for that.

 

[odie]

But I enjoy holding a tool.

Not to mention that it's the difference between "handmade", or not.

CNC.....is not.

-o-

 

[Neil S]

Scrapers may more rapidly remove wood but, with turning outboard as I do most of the time, the scraping cut directs the shavings straight at me, which I don't enjoy! I do resort to a TC tipped scraper for the occasional nasty sand and rock filled blank to lesson time at the grinder.

Core vs gouge. Coring is definitely not faster than straight turning for me, but there is definitely a lot less shavings to clean up when coring and that will sometimes help me to decide to core. I always debate with myself whether to core or just turn away the inside of bowls and platters and forget about the extra blank or so that could be saved. If you are paying for your wood (one way or another) that might be a reason to get a corer, but you do need to save quite a few extra pieces for the corer to pay for itself. And, of course, occasionally the wood itself deserves the effort to squeeze out an extra blank or two.

So, gouges are my main wood removal tool. On large green blanks I go up to 7/8"and 1" to get the job done. On medium sized blanks I use up to 3/4". On 12" and below I use 5/8" BGs. The biggest time saver is sharpening a bunch of gouges and then turning with them until all are too blunt. Even if you can get them, the very large BGs are very expensive nowadays, so you need to be doing and selling a lot of large pieces to make them worth the cost and larger pieces don't sell so well, at least down my way.

RR doesn't go in for long swept back grinds on his gouges, but not always picked up on his use of a spindle gouge to rapidly remove wood from the outside of bowls. It's a wing peeling cut and he explains that he adopted this method for the outside of his production bowls because spindle gouges are/were cheaper than bowl gouges...

With the gouges I can direct the shavings away from me to (mostly) be where I prefer them, which speeds up the shavings clean up time.

None of my lathes have ever had an rpm readout, so have no idea of what speeds I'm turning at. Usually just below vibration speed.

Hollowing. I don't do enough hollow form work to justify the cost, but would invest in high quality forstner style bits and extension bars if I did to get a fast start. Like Hughie, I'm currently use Woodcut Pro-Forme and Munro for hollow forms.

 

[Steve Chaplin]

So, gouges are my main wood removal tool. On large green blanks I go up to 7/8"and 1" to get the job done.

Neil, whose 1" gouge are you using? I have only found one, a Crown 243XPM.

 

[Neil S]

Neil, whose 1" gouge are you using? I have only found one, a Crown 243XPM.

Yes, that's the one. Here it is...

​

It came with that black Ash handle that I found was too short for it so I knocked that off and put longer handle on it.

​

The flute on it is quite different to most BGs I've seen, lingering as it does somewhere between an extremely wide bottomed V (however, the upper sides are almost but not quite straight) and a U flute (which it isn't either, because the upper sides are not parallel to each other ) or a parabolic (which it also isn't, quite as there is almost a fixed radius in the the bottom of the flute, which the parabolic don't have)...

​

As it is quite a big boy, it is probably best to just call it the Crown 1" BG flute profile and leave it at that in case it gets stroppy about being called names it doesn't like!

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

Not to mention that it's the difference between "handmade", or not.

CNC.....is not.

How about this equation Odie? Handmade ≠ profits. Some of us have used CNC to be able make resonable profits. Even Ellsworth mentioned in his rise to fame he had to mass produce certain items just to put food on the table. That mass production could certainly have been more profitable on CNC.

Maybe the differece between "handmade or not" is also the difference between resonable earnings and starving?

Is there some unwritten, secret code in the AAW that being profitable is not noble and honorable? Join the AAW, declare yourself an artist, produce unique, one-off, handmade turned objects and hope to sell to recover a fraction of your turning related expenses. All of this because some unknown AAW individual defined woodturning in a way that could be offensive to turners worldwide who produce well designed, attractive, and useful wood objects with automated processes while keeping their products affordable.

 

[hockenbery]

How about this equation Odie? Handmade ≠ profits.

Depends on the hands.
There is a related avenue you may be unaware of - casting

Had a class with Michael Peterson in the late 1990s. He was beginning to cast some of his pieces in bronze.
Trent bosch casts some of his pieces in bronze - he gifted me one
Binh Pho was casting some of his pieces in glass.

The idea here is to sacrifice the piece to make a mold then make a limited number of castings.

Another way to replicate an object

 

[Michael Anderson]

Craig Lofton does some really nice casting work on calabash style bowls. I’ve admired his work for a while, and have “almost” been inspired enough to try.

 

[Steve Chaplin]

es, that's the one. Here it is...

​

It came with that black Ash handle that I found was too short for it so I knocked that off and put longer handle on it.

​

The flute on it is quite different to most BGs I've seen, lingering as it does somewhere between an extremely wide bottomed V (however, the upper sides are almost but not quite straight) and a U flute (which it isn't either, because the upper sides are not parallel to each other ) or a parabolic (which it also isn't, quite as there is almost a fixed radius in the the bottom of the flute, which the parabolic don't have)...

​

As it is quite a big boy, it is probably best to just call it the Crown 1" BG flute profile and leave it at that in case it gets stroppy about being called names it doesn't like!

Neil, thanks very much for the description and pictures.
I would not purchase a true U flute for anything but bottom of bowl or spindle roughing. That shape looks like it will work for bowl roughing and clear chips out of the flute well.
I would also knock the handle off and use a longer handle.

What diameter is the handle shaft?

 

[Brian Gustin]

How about this equation Odie? Handmade ≠ profits. Some of us have used CNC to be able make resonable profits. Even Ellsworth mentioned in his rise to fame he had to mass produce certain items just to put food on the table. That mass production could certainly have been more profitable on CNC.

Maybe the differece between "handmade or not" is also the difference between resonable earnings and starving?

Is there some unwritten, secret code in the AAW that being profitable is not noble and honorable? Join the AAW, declare yourself an artist, produce unique, one-off, handmade turned objects and hope to sell to recover a fraction of your turning related expenses. All of this because some unknown AAW individual defined woodturning in a way that could be offensive to turners worldwide who produce well designed, attractive, and useful wood objects with automated processes while keeping their products affordable.

Huh? Reasonable profits that you can afford to spend $10K or $20K (I haven't even looked at a 4 axis CNC - got enough sticker shock just looking at the ordinary 3-axis ones) Dang... if that's what you'd call reasonable, it's what I would probably call easy living....

and I don't think either Odie or I have any objections really to CNC (or Ornamental Turning for that matter) being included in AAW discussions. I just do not think that any CNC (or O.T.) objects should ever be compared or classed with traditional turnings, they are completely different processes, and I have seen some very nice turnings produced on simple spring pole lathes that any turner, even one with a $10,000 Robust lathe would be envious of...

- With traditional turning, it isn't the Lathe, but the skill of the turner... With CNC, no tool skills involved, only programming knowledge (If you can type on a keyboard, you can program a CNC and mass produce multiples of the same thing... which by any definition I can think of is not handmade.)

Profitability should not even be any part of the argument, I don't think, and I'm sure many could care less... and those few that WANT to be profitable can usually find a way (demonstrators, production turnings, YouTube, invent & market your own line of tools/sandpaper/whatever) I'd be quite profitable myself if I could bring my booth to some big-city market where there's more people that think nothing of dropping a couple hundred bucks on a utility bowl... trouble is to get to such a market would burn up most of the profits in hotels/transportation, so obviously I don't bother trying.... and someone struggling to put food on the table, just HOW would they even afford to spend 20 grand on a luxury 4-axis CNC in the first place?

Given that this whole thread is in regards to removing wood fast, I would challenge you to show me how your CNC could take a 12" x 12" x 6" blank of wood and turn it into a bowl faster than a traditional turner would on their lathe. (I would bet even I could make a given bowl faster on my cheap HF lathe than you could program & run your luxury CNC to do the same thing... Granted, once programming is set, you could then run off multiple copies of the same bowl faster than I could, but that is *NOT THE POINT OF THIS THREAD*)

 

[odie]

How about this equation Odie? Handmade ≠ profits. Some of us have used CNC to be able make resonable profits. Even Ellsworth mentioned in his rise to fame he had to mass produce certain items just to put food on the table. That mass production could certainly have been more profitable on CNC.

Maybe the differece between "handmade or not" is also the difference between resonable earnings and starving?

Is there some unwritten, secret code in the AAW that being profitable is not noble and honorable? Join the AAW, declare yourself an artist, produce unique, one-off, handmade turned objects and hope to sell to recover a fraction of your turning related expenses. All of this because some unknown AAW individual defined woodturning in a way that could be offensive to turners worldwide who produce well designed, attractive, and useful wood objects with automated processes while keeping their products affordable.

How about this equation Odie? Handmade ≠ profits. Some of us have used CNC to be able make resonable profits. Even Ellsworth mentioned in his rise to fame he had to mass produce certain items just to put food on the table. That mass production could certainly have been more profitable on CNC.

Maybe the differece between "handmade or not" is also the difference between resonable earnings and starving?

Is there some unwritten, secret code in the AAW that being profitable is not noble and honorable? Join the AAW, declare yourself an artist, produce unique, one-off, handmade turned objects and hope to sell to recover a fraction of your turning related expenses. All of this because some unknown AAW individual defined woodturning in a way that could be offensive to turners worldwide who produce well designed, attractive, and useful wood objects with automated processes while keeping their products affordable.

Hmmm.....an interesting proposition to consider, Doug.

Now, if the ultimate goal is to make a living, then whatever it takes to do that is "noble and honorable". Throughout the history of mankind, there has been very few people who have chosen artistic pursuits to make a living.....and succeeded. The reason for this, is the market for artistic, non utilitarian works is very small.....and, there is an overwhelming effort to compete in that market.

I suspect your average person who is looking to purchase "art", and possesses the inner judgemental aptitudes and appreciation to acquire things that are "timeless", are not thrilled with the idea that what they are acquiring, is not handmade.....but instead, is programmed into a computer and punched out with the press of a button. That's my basic "gut feeling" about it, and what I think vs what reality is, or will be.....is yet to be determined. An appropriate example might be all the laser cut wooden trinkets and other items we saw on the market a couple decades ago that, in many cases, reproduced real art artificially. These things were very popular for a short time.....then disappeared from the market. Why was that? My best guess is the market was instantly saturated with mass produced items, and the general buying public became bored and disinterested in it.

I don't think either Odie or I have any objections really to CNC (or Ornamental Turning for that matter) being included in AAW discussions. I just do not think that any CNC (or O.T.) objects should ever be compared or classed with traditional turnings, they are completely different processes

Brian has a very good point, in that "hand turned" things should not be compared in the same way as CNC made things. They are conspicuously not the same process.....and I will add that the human element is distinctly present with traditional turning, while only distantly present when produced by CNC.

-o-

 

[Steve Chaplin]

CNC works still requires design, which is an artistic endeavor. But as Odie said, it is not handmade.
There can be a combination of hand and CNC to get the intended effect. The picture below is a coffee set done by a buddy of mine. The handles, spout, shark, are all done with an CNC. The rest is handmade:

 

[Norm Marentette]

Taught CNC for 27 years, when I retired I bought a wood lathe and can only say your right to say handmade and CNC are NOT the same. Ask a student, and they would pick the handmade option 9.9 times out of 10 hands down. Even I with 3 years exp. on a wood lathe I could turn a bowl faster than any CNC programmer when all is said and done. Always loved that term "one of kind" and craftsmanship gentlemen. AI will put the CNC guys out of work soon by the way.

 

[odie]

AI will put the CNC guys out of work soon by the way.

That is a very good point, and I hadn't considered it.....until just now.

Now, I'm asking myself if AI can replace the human element in "handmade"..... ?

My first thought is.....it can't......but, I'm ready to be surprised by what AI can, or can't do.

-o-

 

[hockenbery]

but, I'm ready to be surprised by what AI can, or can't do.

But how will you know it is AI. The trace elements identifying AI products are getting harder to find.

 

[Dean Center]

Well we seem to have drifted a L O N G way from the original question.

Let's everyone remember to think twice and choose words carefully before posting when their hackles are up or their feelings are strong. It's easy for our posts to be misconstrued, and we've had unpleasant times on this forum in the past.

 

[robo hippy]

I never had the head for being a business man. That is part of why I never pursued it to that extent. Add to that, I was a terrible salesman. Now, if I had a manager, it might have been possible....

robo hippy

 

[odie]

But how will you know it is AI. The trace elements identifying AI products are getting harder to find.

You know.....I think that is a good point, Al.....

The one thing that is noticeable to me when comparing AI, or CNC created things to human creations, is the preciseness of AI and CNC is stark when the human element is eliminated. With the concept of aesthetical appeal in mind, this lack of the "human spiritual connection" is directly in opposition to the strong component of what makes fine art appreciable to those with an attuned artistic eye.

-o-

 

[hockenbery]

The one thing that is noticeable to me when comparing AI, or CNC created things to human creations, is the preciseness of AI and CNC is stark when the human element is eliminated.

Had a class in 1994 Liam O’Neil he said he started doing curved rims when some people asked him what machine he used to get his perfectly flat rims.

An AI would add just enough imperfections to get the handmade look if that were its learned objective. As AI evolves an esthetics rules set it can create all levels of work. It will also educate mankind to appreciate what AI perceives as the best work.

 

[odie]

Had a class in 1994 Liam O’Neil he said he started doing curved rims when some people asked him what machine he used to get his perfectly flat rims.

An AI would add just enough imperfections to get the handmade look if that were its learned objective. As AI evolves an esthetics rules set it can create all levels of work. It will also educate mankind to appreciate what AI perceives as the best work.

Well, that is almost scary, Al.....

If AI can become better at being human than humans can be.....then we are in for a rough landing somewhere in the future!

-o-