Where to start with segmenting

[Dean Center]

One of our high school wood club students said today she would like to try segmenting. I have never done any, and there isn't a member of our local club who is a segmenter, either. Can someone suggest a place to start? I'm thinking she and I both need a simple project for the first one. What would you suggest? And is there a tutorial you would recommend?

 

[Chris Lawrence]

If your a member of the AAW you can search in the resource section of the website for videos and articles on segmenting. Here is one to get you started you need to sign into the AAW site to view. https://community.woodturner.org/co...umentKey=e05a6bbb-cb9f-4144-8d39-6631d256af1a

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

Before you think about trying segmenting you might want to see if you have access to all of the machines necessary to accomplish the task. Then if you think you have all the necessary machines do you have the necessary expertise to tune them and construct the jigs.

 

[Steve Bonny]

The segmented Woodturners chapter of the AAW is likely your best bet. Apart from plenty of experts there is a new forum structure including a section for beginners. There are also beginners follow along projects working through builds as well as monthly technical guides sent out to members. Ask any question on the forum and you will get answers..... all for$25 membership.

 

[Steve Bonny]

Here is the link:-

Segmented Woodturners | Worldwide Home of Segmented Woodturners

Segmentedwoodturners.org is a 501 (c)(3) Organization | Segmented Woodturners

segmentedwoodturners.org

 

[Jeff Jackson]

The above link and Malcolm Tibbetts' book is how I got started.

 

[Brian Gustin]

Me, at first I just glued up wood scraps (Cutting boards, in essence) and then piled them up haphazardly in a glue-up (after cutting them to mostly square-ish dimensions) to make a thicker square blank - 3 o 4 or layers of 3/4 inch or 1 inch or 1-1/4 inch cutting board cut-offs can make you a blank plenty thick enough to turn bowls , comes out much like a "coat of many colors" if you use a variety of scraps ranging between maple, cherry, walnut, purpleheart, etc - although your pattern will be random and it does tend to leave a ton of shavings to clean up, as opposed to truly segmented rings... But it was a start (and a use for scraps and offcuts) - then I started figuring out how to cut precise angles on table saw, then I found SWT (as linked above in post #4) and plans for the wedgie sled to make my own... (Think it was jerry bennet website or something?)

Still have not done much segmenting (have had too much other projects to take care of yet after Dad passing and his estate to take care of) but have plans to do so.

 

[Steve Bonny]

The above link and Malcolm Tibbetts' book is how I got started.

Agreed, if you can find a copy of Malcolms book, it is a great reference. There have been a few changes in "best practice" since Malcolm published his book, but it is still very relevant and will set you going in the right direction.

 

[Steve Bonny]

It looks like Malcolms book is still available on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/Segmented-Wood-Turning-Step-Step/dp/0941936864/ref=sr_1_2?crid=4BIKRI2E3HYF&keywords=malcolm+tibbetts+books&qid=1706712049&sprefix=malcolm+tibbets%2Caps%2C293&sr=8-2

 

[Paul May]

I would strongly recommend Jerry Bennett's website for valuable information on how to cut segments and also how to build and use a proper sled. I caught on pretty quickly from his information.
Seg Easy home page

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

I also recommend Jerry Bennett. Look him up on YouTube and search for his wedgie sled. You will want to build one of those. It is the easiest way to get perfect glue ups.

 

[Earl McLain]

@Dean Center ...By some past lapse in memory, i have a spare copy of Tibbets' book. If you'd like it, PM me your mailing address and i'd be honored to donate it to the HS club. Excellent resource as is anything by Jerry Bennett.
earl

 

[Dean Center]

Thank you all for your replies. Are design software and wedgie sleds necessary for a basic, starter segmented project? Getting perfect glue joints or a 2144 piece bowl are not what we're going to be aiming for. At least not yet.

 

[Earl McLain]

Thank you all for your replies. Are design software and wedgie sleds necessary for a basic, starter segmented project? Getting perfect glue joints or a 2144 piece bowl are not what we're going to be aiming for. At least not yet.

I built a sled a few years back, but I get acceptable results from my Incra miter gauge. That said, i'm in the "good & simple camp". Software helps, but really there tables showing lengths for various diameters of rings that will get you close enough to turn. I tend to cut my stock to 7/8" or 1" which gives me wiggle room to turn with--but i'm also not trying to scrimp on saving exotic stock. If the students are capable, challenging them to learn the math to calculate diameters & segment length might add good life lessons as well.

Admittedly, i've not done a lot of segmenting and my feature rings tend to just be a contrasting wood--but i segment for kicks and the change of pace. So, skilled turners may offer a different view.

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

Are design software and wedgie sleds necessary for a basic, starter segmented project?

The design software is not necessary, simple math will tell you what your angles should be. Example: 16 segment ring - 360 / 16 = 22.5 degrees, that is the space each segment will take up in a circle and is referred to as included angle. The angle of each segment in each joint is half of the included angle or in this case 11.25 degrees. If you cut the number of segments in half to 8 the included angle becomes 45. The decimal degrees can be a pain so if you consider 360 / 12 = 30 / 2 = 15, many miter saws have positive stops at 15, 22.5, 30 & 45 degrees. The design software is primarily used to layout these elaborate designs with the 2144 pieces in them, but if you don't care for that or are just looking for a simple starting place, just go with one species.
The cutting can be done with a table saw or a miter saw, my personal preference is the miter saw, because the work piece is stationary and the saw blade is moved to make the cut so that is what I will describe. The first thing to do with any type saw is to tune it so it cuts at 90 degrees to the table and 90 degrees to the fence or cross cut guide.

This is the setup I have been using, but you can cut your segments directly on the machine table. The toggle clamp holds the segment so that it doesn't go flying or jam up between the blade and the stop. To cut without the auxiliary table or clamp you will still need a stop. The procedure is to first cut the angle on the end of the strip, then flip the strip over push it up to the stop and make the second cut = 1 segment. The procedure without the auxiliary table and clamp is to make the cut and before retracting the blade shut down the saw and wait for it to stop before retracting the blade, otherwise the segment may be damaged and or take flight.
The glue up of each ring can be done all joints at once, if the angles are accurate or you can make them in two halves with dowels in 2 joints to account for the inaccuracy. The assembly can be clamped with SS hose clamps. Note the details of gluing up rings has been discussed many times before.

 

[Paul May]

Thank you all for your replies. Are design software and wedgie sleds necessary for a basic, starter segmented project? Getting perfect glue joints or a 2144 piece bowl are not what we're going to be aiming for. At least not yet.

Hi Dean... A basic segmented project only requires the ability to dimension lumber into suitable sized strips and then have the saw needed to cut wedges. Without a sled one can use a chop saw or bandsaw but the most efficient way is to use a sled of some sort. In Jerry's videos he explains how to do this with a single fence jig as well. Math is pretty simple as there are many free online calculators available. I started out drawing the plans and used the calculator initially and it worked pretty well.

 

[Vincent Vogel]

I'm not an experienced segmenter, but here's my opinion. First keep it simple because you are trying to teach skills and not everyone in your class may be interested in something complicated and you'll lose their interest. Since you're a teacher I'm sure you know this. I like to make full scale drawings of new things like Paul posted above. This will teach them layout work. Then I think students need to know the math that's involved in doing this since they can use it for other things in life. Have fun and good luck.

 

[Doug Freeman]

Software is not mandatory, but it sure makes the process easier. IMO there is no reason to understand the math when getting started. If it becomes a passion, then figure out the math.

As mentioned above, check the necessary equipment list to be sure all the bases are covered. There are several methods to do the different steps - figure out the simplest ones to get started and if the student becomes passionate better methods can be obtained.

A simple project, probably 8 seg per layer, and 3-4 layers, is best for beginners. Can all be the same wood. The idea is to demo the concept and processes, not create a masterpiece.

I use the software below (havent don any seg work in 5-6 yrs). A free demo version that allows simple projects can be downloaded for free. Some of the other software may allow the same.

Segmented Turning.com - Home of the Segmented Project Planner

www.segmentedturning.com

 

[Dean Center]

Fantastic help, guys. Extremely helpful. I will check into the resources you've suggested and get her started envisioning and drawing. Thank you.

 

[Jerry Bennett]

The reason most people do not have any intention of trying segmenting is math. Getting out a pencil and paper and wading through calculations for some random shape dreamed up will not make you a segmenting guru. Neither will adding, subtracting, multiplying or dividing without a calculator make you a mathematical genius. If you want to get up to speed in the shortest amount of time, get the software first.

 

[Earl McLain]

Fully agree Jerry--my hope in my comments was to take the opportunity to not only inspire youth to work with their hands, but to also provide them with practical life application for math skills as well. If all we do is plug numbers into machines and hope the programmers got the software right--without an expectation of what the correct answers might be--far too many errors can happen. (your software is both correct and awesome, i own it and use it!!)
I may be a little sensitive on that topic today, after watching a bank teller try to count change back to me yesterday--had to give money back to her twice!! If it would have happened a third time, i might have been tempted to count it as divine intervention. (nah, couldn't have done that)

 

[Steve Bonny]

There is a bulletin with all the math simplified in the SWT chapter resources. It takes out the trig needed and gives approximate math that is close enough for 99% of what you will do. It's basic arithmetic and can easily be plugged into a spreadsheet or calculator.
Having said that, I agree - the software is worth every penny in time saving - especially if you want to adjust the design etc.
I can design and create a simple segmented bowl, automatically create the cutting list in a under a minute using Woodturner Pro. You can then adjust it if you want to change the shape or size in a few seconds.

Welcome to Woodturner PRO - Segmented Woodturning Simplified

 

[Jerry Bennett]

To be sure, a newbie can choose between a number of software programs, make a simple wedgie sled and create any number of successful vessels and bowls and never calculate a thing. Get a car, learn to drive. Later you can learn how to overhaul the engine.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

The reason most people do not have any intention of trying segmenting is math. Getting out a pencil and paper and wading through calculations for some random shape dreamed up will not make you a segmenting guru. Neither will adding, subtracting, multiplying or dividing without a calculator make you a mathematical genius. If you want to get up to speed in the shortest amount of time, get the software first.

Personally, I have no interest in segmentation. The tedium just isn't for me. But, yes, I can see that the math is complex.

 

[Steve Bonny]

Personally, I have no interest in segmentation. The tedium just isn't for me. But, yes, I can see that the math is complex.

I want to dispel this myth that the math is complex. You can do it with basic arithmetic to an accuracy that is plenty good enough for 99% of what we do. If you can add, multiple and divide, you have it covered. If you need help with it join the SWT chapter. The simplified math is posted there. Also posted are tables for compound miter angles for staves - no math needed.

 

[hockenbery]

But, yes, I can see that the math is complex.

I have no interest in segmenting and I used to be good enough in math to get paid to use it.

The math can be real simple
Learned the gozinta method of division. No need for anything else.

Closest I got to segmenting was a dozen or so staved bluebird houses. 9 staves for the nest cavity cylinder.
9 gozinta 360 40 times. Each stave has 2 sides so 2 gozinta 40 20 times
Cut the staves with 20 degree angles.

Then a full size diagram tells me the thickness and width of each stave.

Secret- a stave is just a tall segment.

 

[Steve Bonny]

I have no interest in segmenting and I used to be good enough in math to get paid to use it.

The math can be real simple
Learned the gozinta method of division. No need for anything else.

Closest I got to segmenting was a dozen or so staved bluebird houses. 9 staves for the nest cavity cylinder.
9 gozinta 360 40 times. Each stave has 2 sides so 2 gozinta 40 20 times
Cut the staves with 20 degree angles.

Then a full size diagram tells me the thickness and width of each stave.

Secret- a stave is just a tall segment.

Thats funny, had me scratching my head for second, I'd never heard of this clever gozinta math technique. Haha.

P.s. the grain direction is the key different between staves and segments. Segments, the grain runs around a bowl. Staves the grain runs vertical like a barrel. Staves can get a little trickier as they are commonly used at an angle rather than perfectly vertical which compounds the cut angles.

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

The math is the easy part. Multiply the diameter of the ring by 3.14 and that will tell you the distance around the outside. Divide that by the number of segments and that will tell you how long to make the long side Of each segment. Divide 360 by the number of segments to get the angle. If your angle is 30 degrees then each segment needs to be cut at 15 degrees.

 

[Steve Bonny]

The math is the easy part. Multiply the diameter of the ring by 3.14 and that will tell you the distance around the outside. Divide that by the number of segments and that will tell you how long to make the long side Of each segment. Divide 360 by the number of segments to get the angle. If your angle is 30 degrees then each segment needs to be cut at 15 degrees.

There you go... in a nutshell, no one can call that complex!

 

[Timothy White]

I have no interest in segmenting and I used to be good enough in math to get paid to use it.

The math can be real simple
Learned the gozinta method of division. No need for anything else.

Closest I got to segmenting was a dozen or so staved bluebird houses. 9 staves for the nest cavity cylinder.
9 gozinta 360 40 times. Each stave has 2 sides so 2 gozinta 40 20 times
Cut the staves with 20 degree angles.

Then a full size diagram tells me the thickness and width of each stave.

Secret- a stave is just a tall segment.

That sounds like the Jethro Bodine school of ciphering.
you must know both your twotems and your gozinras.

 

[Gary Beasley]

Be sure you know how to mill your stock flat and square, a woodworking fundamental. Otherwise you will be gnashing your teeth and throwing things when the rings wont glue up right. Then theres all the extra sanding to corrects said problems.

 

[Daniel Henry]

This question or request for help is what led me to join the AAW and this forum. Members herein are willing to help without insulting or degrading. While along the journey there may be some humor with a dash of friendly sarcasm but the willingness to HELP is there. THANKS