4341 HSS?

[Asher Langton]

I got a cheap set of turning tools for free to review through Amazon's Vine program, and the manufacturer's copy says the steel used is 4341 high speed steel. The tools themselves look like a Benjamin's Best knockoff set, but the steel is more coarsely-finished. Overall, the set was pretty much junk, but I'm curious about the steel. Google indicates that 4341 is a cheap Chinese high speed steel. It seemed very soft, though I don't know if that was the alloy or the heat treatment. I had some difficulty reshaping the spindle gouge because my 180 grit CBN wheel was removing material so quickly, a problem I've never had with M2 or better steels. But most curious was that this steel was throwing off a great deal of sparks, something I've never seen to this extent on a CBN wheel. Anyone else have experience with this steel?

 

[Nick Valenza]

Do you have a link to the steel on Amazon?

 

[Nick Valenza]

Here is a screenshot of a digital book. Hopefully you this helps you more identify the steel. Credit goes the Author Leonard Lee in the book "The Complete Guide to Sharpening"

 

[Asher Langton]

Do you have a link to the steel on Amazon?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CPSW18N3?th=1

Here is a screenshot of a digital book. Hopefully you this helps you more identify the steel. Credit goes the Author Leonard Lee in the book "The Complete Guide to Sharpening"

Thanks, that's really interesting! I wonder how how accurate that is for CBN wheels, since they generally produce very few sparks, at least with most high speed steels.

 

[Lyle Jamieson]

Good question Asher. I have run into these tools many times while I have traveled around the country doing hands-on classes. Some think they got a good deal with the price so cheep. Do you think the tools will give you the same performance with a $15.00 tool that other manufacturers cost $100.00 for?? Do they think the better tools are a rip off?? Do they think they must start with cheep tools to learn with as beginners, so they don't waste away good tools in the learning curve?? I believe they are turning with one hand tied behind their backs. Those cheep tools will not get sharp. These cheep tools will not stay sharp. So now the people using these tools think that experience is "normal". Everybody must struggle with poor performance and torn out grain, and starting sanding with 80 grit sandpaper. Sharp tools for turning is critical for efficiency, safety, and because it makes it fun instead of hard work. A good tool will not make you a better turner, but it will give you a better chance of improving your skills. And you will have a lot more fun along the ride. A crappy tool will only lead to frustration and will prevent you from advancing your skill level. You get what you pay for. You can go down to a big box store and get a $20.00 electric drill. It will vibrate and the plastic parts will fail very quickly and you need to go back and buy another cheep drill soon. OR, you can buy a good drill and it can last you the rest of your life. Many folks buy a bunch of tools that don't work as promised or are down wright dangerous. Down the road once they learn how to turn they look back at this big rack full of tools and realize they have waisted a lot of money. You only need a few good tools, not a rack full of them.

 

[robo hippy]

I don't know anything about that metal. I am wary of cheaper knock offs. Side note, that looks like the Right Angle grinding platform. Had it long? Like how it works?

robo hippy

 

[Nick Valenza]

I don't know anything about that metal. I am wary of cheaper knock offs. Side note, that looks like the Right Angle grinding platform. Had it long? Like how it works?

robo hippy

Looks like a wolverine that was cut out! Very cool!

 

[Asher Langton]

Good question Asher. I have run into these tools many times while I have traveled around the country doing hands-on classes. Some think they got a good deal with the price so cheep. Do you think the tools will give you the same performance with a $15.00 tool that other manufacturers cost $100.00 for??

Some of the cheaper tools are adequate, but not great, like Benjamin's Best from PSI. But even with those you have to be careful. Someone (maybe Alan Lacer?) wrote an article comparing tool steels, and one of his findings was that while BB from PSI used decent M2 steel, similar-looking Benjamin's Best branded tools from eBay used a significantly inferior steel. Probably the same 4241 HSS that's used in this no-name set I'm reviewing.

Side note, that looks like the Right Angle grinding platform. Had it long? Like how it works?

It is! I've had it about a week. Once I've used it a little more, I'll write a more detailed review, but here are my thoughts so far.

Pros:
- Platform that is actually flat
- Cutout platform is more useful than standard Wolverine, and doesn't require moving the platform in and out
- Many easily-reproducible angles

Cons:
- Can't sharpen angles less than around 30° without additional adapter (so no skews!)
- Platform vibrates a lot.
- The whole rest flexes side-to-side easily, so using it requires a light touch. This is my biggest disappointment.
- Cost

I bought this rest because I like gadgets and it seemed well-designed, but I probably should have just bought another 4-5 Wolverine rests for same the price and dedicated each to a specific angle.

 

[robo hippy]

I will probably have to get one, just to satisfy my curiosity. I never cared for the Wolverine platform, and most who have them will cut out a notch to accommodate the 1 1/2 inch wide CBN wheels. That does save on having to move it around so much. I do have one that is set to 25 degrees. I do need to get it welded into that position. I use it exclusively for my hand plane blades. I got a bunch of old ones that I will restore, and it is much easier to take them to the CBN wheel than to get the angles on lapping plates.

robo hippy

 

[Jamie Straw]

The type of steel is only one small part. Tempering is super important, and a good polish on the finished product really makes a difference. For instance, having a polished flute on a gouge gives a noticeably better cut than one that's not smooth.

 

[john lucas]

The type of steel is only one small part. Tempering is super important, and a good polish on the finished product really makes a difference. For instance, having a polished flute on a gouge gives a noticeably better cut than one that's not smooth.

No it doesn't. I thought so too until I ran a test. I ground my gouge with a 36 grit wheel. Turned with a finishing cut. Then sharpened wot my 350 grit wheel and made the same cut. To my surprise there was no difference. I did this over and over on a lot of different woods making lidded boxes with knobs and finials. I used a variety of tools all with tge same results. I found tge speed you push the tool through the work is the most critical factor. Below is a sample just as a test. A skew was used for the flat and beads and a spindle gouge for tge coves. 350 grit on tge left and 36 grit on the right.

 

[Neil McWilliams]

Under the scanning microscope, what is the difference in the burr using the 350 grit wheel vs the 36? Isn't the burr what we woodturners cut with? Isn't that why we don't whet and strop our tools, as the amount of cutting wear is far greater than what a fine carving tool would be exposed to?

 

[Russell Nugent]

Under the scanning microscope, what is the difference in the burr using the 350 grit wheel vs the 36? Isn't the burr what we woodturners cut with? Isn't that why we don't whet and strop our tools, as the amount of cutting wear is far greater than what a fine carving tool would be exposed to?

The burr is used with scrapers yes, gouges and skews use the cutting edge, the burr that's left from sharpening disappears quickly, although some do hone inside and outside on gouges and many hone and strop skews.

 

[robo hippy]

The debate about coarser wheel equals fewer teeth so they stay sharp longer, vs finer wheel equals finer teeth so there are more teeth to cut and they stay sharp longer will continue.

As for the 36 grit vs 350 grit, there can be huge differences if you grind, as in push hard and long into the wheel of if you just kiss the bevel. In general the coarser wheel will leave a coarser and bigger burr, but I would not expect it to be longer lasting.

Some thing I should try some time, if I can remember, is to check the burr on my gouges after they go dull. I think there is still a pretty strong burr, but as I said, I need to check.

robo hippy

 

[Jamie Straw]

No it doesn't. I thought so too until I ran a test. I ground my gouge with a 36 grit wheel. Turned with a finishing cut. Then sharpened wot my 350 grit wheel and made the same cut. To my surprise there was no difference. I did this over and over on a lot of different woods making lidded boxes with knobs and finials. I used a variety of tools all with tge same results. I found tge speed you push the tool through the work is the most critical factor. Below is a sample just as a test. A skew was used for the flat and beads and a spindle gouge for tge coves. 350 grit on tge left and 36 grit on the right.

I read about your tests and appreciate the info. I must say, though, when I clean the flute of a gouge (right at the cutting edge) it seems to cut much better for fine cuts than if I ignore any build-up there. I think of it as akin to having a polished plane blade on both sides.