A little "hard truth" for the newbies at AAW........sharpening gouges and scrapers:

[Odie]

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No matter how you look at it, the sharper your edge, and more distinct your scraper burrs......the better "tool finish", or quality of cut you can attain. This is probably the most important thing to master, because it will minimize your sanding. The truth is: The better your tool finish, the finer grit you can commence with, and the less you will sand......and the less sanding you do, the less surface distortion you will have. It's very simple, really.......

To be sure, you need to require yourself to know and practice a lot of other techniques and skills, but without sharp tools, things are just not going to work for you.......it MUST be a concerted effort between you and your tools! (I suppose it all depends on how motivated you are in your personal search for perfection, as to how important to you this is.)

There are some very talented and knowledgeable turners that are satisfied with less than the best edge because, as they say, the burrs and fine sharp edge just don't last very long........AND, THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! We all will come to these crossroads, and make our choice. Settle for less, or walk the walk, and find a way to get that sharp edge......and, KEEP IT SHARP.

Here's my secret for gouges......sharpen and hone.....hone, hone, hone, hone, hone, etc. I probably hone a dozen times before returning to the grinder. Honing will create a secondary bevel, and when that bevel is about 1/32" +/-, it will interfere with function and then returns to the grinder. While honing, keep the hone as flat to the ground bevel as you can, because this will allow you to hone more times, prior to returning to the grinder.

Some turners don't hone at all......and, for the life of me, I can't understand why keeping the ultra-sharp edge isn't all that important to them. (I suspect it's because they just don't want to pause with what they are doing.......a mistake that bears out in the results!) With gouges, I seldom turn for more than a minute or two, before touching up the edge with a diamond hone. Always, and I do mean ALWAYS, remove the burr from the flute.....it's adds to the ultimate sharpness. (I use a cone shaped diamond.) Think about it.......that burr is the edge bending over.......straighten it out, and the edge is sharper.

For scrapers, the distinctly sharp edge of the burr dulls even faster than gouges. I find myself returning to the grinder after two or three swipes......often before the wheels of the grinder have completely stopped! It only takes a second, and the improved/maintained quality produced by a properly prepared and presented scraper will bring a smile to your face.......even on tough wood, like burls, most spalting, and endgrain. (It's important to note that on a rounded scraper taking the finest of cuts, you're only using a very small fraction of the available cutting edge available........in most cases, you can extend the life of the burr by using the entire surface of the burr in sections. There are times when this may not be possible (like negotiating an inside curve), but keep it in mind.)

If you want to eliminate tearout completely with most woods, and have it so minimal that you have to look real closely to see it on the most difficult woods.......maintaining sharp tools is how it's done........

All of the above is in respect to attaining the best possible surface prior to sanding. For roughing and preliminary shaping, the rules can be fudged a little........but never let it get to the point where you're creating unnecessary work for yourself.......sharpen it. Some species of wood, and specific individual examples of most all wood, tend to tearout more than others...... If it goes deeper than where your intended final surface will be.......you're in trouble!

ooc



I remember seeing a video by John Jordan years ago.......In that video, he had a chalkboard behind him.......and on that chalkboard was written: "The answer to your question is: Sharpen your tool! " .........Soooooo true!




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[Brian McInturff]

Also remember to see what works best for you. Just because some say hone, hone, hone doesn't mean it's the only way. Experiment and see if it works for you and if you can tell a difference. A lot of us don't see a difference.

It's an argument where there is no correct answer. And tons of discussions on all forums about it, some from some of the best turners in the business.

 

[Odie]

Also remember to see what works best for you. Just because some say hone, hone, hone doesn't mean it's the only way. Experiment and see if it works for you and if you can tell a difference. A lot of us don't see a difference.

It's an argument where there is no correct answer. And tons of discussions on all forums about it, some from some of the best turners in the business.

.

Yes, of course, Brian.........

Less than as sharp as you can get is good enough for some (I believe I mentioned that.)........all I'm giving is my opinion, which is shared by a few other turners. I've come to my conclusions based on my own experiences with this, and I don't expect what I have come to know as absolute "truths", to be the same for everyone.....but, they definitely are for me! This subject has come up before, and I'm fully aware and understand that each is to their own. It's my intention to allow everyone who has already made their own conclusions, to have their "own space". I am making an effort to reach a few newer turners with my thoughts, in the hopes I can influence their progress for the better.......but, you can lead a horse to water!.......

As far as there being "no correct answer", .....well, there is a correct answer for me, and there is a correct answer for you, and there is a correct answer for anyone who has come to a conclusion on this.......so, yes, there certainly is a correct answer. There may not be a correct answer that fits everyone......but, as individuals and groups.....there is. In the world of woodturning, there is "group think", or, a term that I think I may have coined: "herd mentality"......where there are many things that are considered "how it's done".......some of these things I subscribe to, and some I don't. There are a few things where I seem to be a "lone voice in the wilderness", but on this particular subject, I'm a member of a group of turners who have concluded exactly the same as myself......

I have avoided trying to suggest how to get a sharp edge, My input was intended only to point out that the objective is to get it sharp. I know there are many ways of getting a sharp edge. To be sure, there are many very good methods of getting "sharp"......but, for me to direct the path on how to get it "sharp" was not my intent.......My point was simply that the state of being sharp produces the better "tool finish" overall.......(For some of us! )

This is an open thread. If you'd like to expand on your own thoughts, experiences, beliefs, whatever........you are welcome to tell us what you do.

ooc

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[Brian McInturff]

Oldie,
I believe we had this discussion just a few weeks ago. I hone usually for the very final cut. I hone my skew often. I also believe we talked about where to stop in the sharpening/honing.i think you stop at 600 grit on the honing. But, if you want the ultimate sharp then why stop. Why not go to 8000, 12000, or even 20000 diamond paste. I believe you mentioned you didn't see a difference past 600 grit. Likewise I haven't seen a difference(except for finish cuts) from using my wheel(CBN wheels now). When I hone for finish cuts I use a 1200 grit now.

It should also be mentioned that if you are going to hone then it's imperative to use proper technique as you can easily roll the edge if you don't pay attention and develop proper technique.

I don't think I've asked you this question - do you hone your SRG(Spindle Roughing Gouge) or do you even use one. Would you hone it if you did use one? Do you hone your drill bits? Saw blades? Hand saws?

 

[hockenbery]

There are lots of different opinions on sharpening.
This can be confusing to new turners.

One thing everyone agrees on is that turning requires sharp tools.

Almost everyone hones a skew because it is meant to cut with either bevel against the wood.

Almost everyone uses a bowl gouge directly from the grinder.

Kirk DeHeer has some excellent materials on sharpening.
Check out the journal article 2006 vol 4. He also has a video.
Don Geiger is an excellent sharpening instructor in central Florida.
And there a lots more.

 

[Odie]

Oldie,
I believe we had this discussion just a few weeks ago. I hone usually for the very final cut. I hone my skew often. I also believe we talked about where to stop in the sharpening/honing.i think you stop at 600 grit on the honing. But, if you want the ultimate sharp then why stop. Why not go to 8000, 12000, or even 20000 diamond paste. I believe you mentioned you didn't see a difference past 600 grit. Likewise I haven't seen a difference(except for finish cuts) from using my wheel(CBN wheels now). When I hone for finish cuts I use a 1200 grit now.

It should also be mentioned that if you are going to hone then it's imperative to use proper technique as you can easily roll the edge if you don't pay attention and develop proper technique.

I don't think I've asked you this question - do you hone your SRG(Spindle Roughing Gouge) or do you even use one. Would you hone it if you did use one? Do you hone your drill bits? Saw blades? Hand saws?

These are some good questions and points, Brian.......

Yes, it's true that I stop at 600gt for honing gouges, because I don't see a difference after that point. Thanks for allowing me to make the clarification in that there is a point of "diminishing returns" related to the degree of sharpness. I have found that point, and it is applicable to the overall quality of MY bowl turning......and it isn't exactly the same for everyone. This is mainly because I've found that any sharper, and it it dulls instantly.......no usefulness in that at all. (I have gone to 1200gt, but stopped going any finer.....because, at that point, I had answers!) The degree of sharpness I can get with 600gt honing serves purpose.....but, as I have mentioned, it doesn't last very long. This is the point about "crossroads" I was trying to make for new turners: At some point, they are going to have to re-sharpen. Now, the question is just where that point will be, and how sharp it must be. The only way to make the decision applicable to one's own turning style, is with the benefit of practical application......I'm hoping my input might give these new turners expanded boundaries from which to make that decision.

"Proper honing technique"......check.......we agree!

I have a SRG, but seldom use it.......almost never, really. Would I hone my SRG?.......good question, but the answer lies in practical experience with the SRG, which I am lacking.

Do I hone saw blades and drill bits.......? No, I don't....but, get real, Brian.......try to stay focused!

ooc

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[David Wilkins]

yes, and no.
A sharp tool is a nice thing to use, I have a student who jiged his platten sharpener to sharpen his turning tools. His tools are always sharpened to about 10000 grit, mirror polish. That does absolutely nothing to improve his tool handling or design skills.

You can find superb work that was done with tools sharpened to 60 or 80 grit and then the turner, with good tool handling, design and finish skills created an object.

It's just one part of the equation.

 

[Mark Levitski]

Agreed, sharp tools help. But, c'mon, let's recognize our own excesses, obsessions, and compulsions for going overboard to achieve the final result (takes one to know one). Especially if you are roughing out, and even if you are finishing.

One will sand. That's a fact. Sharpness will help with tearout on some woods, but will not help with avoiding smooth transitions and the inevitable humps or ridges when even the slightest deviation in movement with a gouge will give you one. Technique in smooth cuts rather than extreme sharpness will help more in that case. Pressing the bevel or heel into the wood will also necessitate more coarse sanding or going back to a tool to get rid of the compressed or bent over fibers that are a result.

Efficiency of time is also a factor. Exactly how much time and attention do you want to dedicate to your sharp edge compared to the result you actually need? IOW, what is the return on investment? To save a grit or two, if?

I never hone my gouges or my scrapers. They come right off the grinder into the wood. My technique has improved to reduce or eliminate tearout, ridges, endgrain compressed fibers, etc. This has helped a lot with sanding. I can now begin with a 120 or 180 grit. Once I concentrate on the obvious defects with my first grit, I can move quickly up the grit ladder. Technique, not honed sharpness, is my greatest obstacle. Shoot, the modern tool steels hold a good enough sharp edge right off the grinder for any turning IMO. And when they lose their sharpness, there is such little steel lost from the grinder to get and edge back that is is not worth considering. One light pass does it.

Beginners should learn tool technique first and that includes the basics of how to sharpen. To overemphasize a honed edge, IMhumbleO, will lead them slightly astray and waste their time. Time is extremely important in our turning lives, whether a production professional or a hobbyist. Who of us has time to spare?

 

[MichaelMouse]

A stropped tool with a brilliant bevel, poorly presented, cuts worse than its non honed companion. The proper advice is Frank Pain's "cut the wood as it wishes to be cut."

For new folks, you want the shavings to flow and fall, not fly. When you hit the proper angle, you'll have almost no load where you're holding the handle.

 

[john lucas]

Dead on MM. I seldom strop anything but the skew. I use a 100 grit wheel. When I take my time I can turn a spindle that actually has to be sanded to reduce the gloss so it will stain properly. I'm not that good with my bowl gouge but can get cuts that reduce my sanding considerably. I will hone the edge for a final cut if the wood is being difficult. Most of the time speeding up the lathe, using less forward pressure on the cut and using the tool at the proper angle will give a clean cut.
What does work for me is using tools with sharper cutting angles if they will reach in and still rub the bevel. My bowl gouge is ground to about 50 degrees but I have another ground at 40 and will often use my detail gouge which is ground to 35 degrees if the wood is being difficult and I can reach in with that tool.

 

[Odie]

Agreed, sharp tools help. But, c'mon, let's recognize our own excesses, obsessions, and compulsions for going overboard to achieve the final result (takes one to know one). Especially if you are roughing out, and even if you are finishing.

Question, Mark........

If the results are an improvement of surface quality, is it an excess, obsession, and/or compulsion?.......or, is it just what a few turners need to do in order to achieve a superior result? For some, minimized effort is acceptable, and it certainly will produce an acceptable result, but there are those who are willing to spend 90 percent of their effort to acquire the last 10 percent of the results. Are the benefits worth all this extra effort? That's a question everyone will have to answer on a personal level.......and not allow the herd to influence that element of individuality.

Very true about the need to apply strictly applied regulated principles to a "tool finish" * prior to sanding......and not so important for roughing and preliminary shaping. I have pointed this out previously, but it bears validity to repeat the point.

*edit note: When I say "tool finish", I'm not speaking of the edge quality of the tool itself, but rather the surface quality of the wood being turned prior to sanding.

ooc

 

[robo hippy]

The debate goes on and on...... I have tried honing on my gouges, and could not notice any difference, or the difference is almost undetectable. I can tell the difference in a freshly sharpened gouge, and one that has done some roughing though. The thing I haven't tried is the Mike Mahoney thing, he prefers a gouge straight from a 45 grit stone because he says that a serrated edge cuts better. I don't even have a stone that coarse. The only time a honed flute has made a difference is when I am trying a dropped handle, non bevel rubbing shear cut. If the burr is still on the inside, it doesn't cut well, but I never use that cut any more as the scraper does it better, and/or I am more comfortable with that cut.

Odie, I am really curious about your results with scraper burrs. I can rough out the inside and outside of a 12 inch bowl with the burr straight from my grinder, no problem, and there still is sufficient edge left to work on another bowl. This seems to be the same with either HSS or the V10 steel from Doug Thompson. I do use the CBN wheels, and have for over 7 years now (older matrix type, and not D Way wheels). I seem to remember the burr being better than I could get from the white grinding wheels though. The burr from a negative rake scraper does vanish quickly, and again, the CBN wheels do give a better burr. I do tend to push into the wheel rather than just kiss the bevel. A honed burr is very delicate, and I have tried them, but don't find them to be worth the effort. I have tried a honed burr from the CBN hone that D Way sells, and maybe it is because I push pretty hard, that burr is also pretty durable, so maybe I am getting a combined burnished/honed burr. I do have a rather blunt bevel angle, in the 60 to 70 degree range, and could see that if you have a 45 degree bevel, that might be more dainty.

robo hippy

 

[Mark Levitski]

Odie, your personal observations and avoidance of the herd mentality is honored, admired, and commended. I do not wish to be seen as merely antagonistic here. For you, an experienced and accomplished turner, it is not obsessive or compulsive at all. O and C are not all bad. In some cases they can be the driver to get better.

I just think that any turner, especially new ones, should keep it simple and be accurate about what might be stopping them from being better turners. IMO, for beginners, honing and "scary sharp" are on the list but WAY down it.

I have seen this phenomenon in other areas of my life. For instance, in sled dog racing, my other passion, many fall into the trap of thinking that there is some smple trick or secret that they are missing in order too magically make their racing team highly competitive. Many try different diets or training techniques in pursuit of this when the real reason is that their dogs are just not able to perform at that level. They are wasting time and putting themselves under a lot of duress just trying to figure out what secret they're missing.

In turning, I see many shopping for that next new tool that will somehow disappear all the problems that they are having creating a nicely finished piece. Or they are trying to find the correct angle for the tool, as if the angle is the culprit. Astray on the wrong path.

IMO, beginners should have at the top of the list practice, or time behind a tool. Cut wood and a lot of it. Experiment from different presentations to the wood with only a couple of tools at first. Try to watch other turners and how they handle using cutting tools. All this takes time, and that is my point. By getting comfortable with your tools, you will be spending your time to become an accomplished turner in the most efficient way, and you will be taking a more direct path.

 

[john lucas]

Mark Your dead on with the practice practice practice idea. That makes a huge difference. I remember someone asked John Jordan how to improve their technique. He told them to turn a hundred of something. I agree. I have done several production runs of 50 to hundred and by the end you are cutting much cleaner and faster.

 

[robo hippy]

Biggest problem I have with the skew. I would do a run of basting brush handles, and get it down fairly well, then not practice again for a while. Each time I picked it up again, I was down, but not as far as the time before.

robo hippy

 

[MichaelMouse]

Biggest problem I have with the skew. I would do a run of basting brush handles, and get it down fairly well, then not practice again for a while. Each time I picked it up again, I was down, but not as far as the time before.

robo hippy

Have you used a straight chisel? No surprise angles, just the skew to it which you put there. Very friendly tool.

 

[robo hippy]

I only have a couple of skews, compared to many gouges. My favorite one is the one that has a convex bevel. A bit more user friendly, especially for turning slight cove shapes. More than anything, it is, like my martial arts teacher said, "10,000 more times!" I have learned to feel the bevel and can apply gouge skills to the skew, but at best, I can do a fair job.

robo hippy

 

[john lucas]

I counted yesterday and I have 12 skew or skew like tools. I've been collecting different shaped skews to try and learn the differences. I'm going to build one more tonight which looks like the V scrapers sold with the old Craftsman tool kits. My friend has ground the bevel back a little more and uses it a lot like a skew.
That V scraper looks a lot like Keith Thompkins new V skew but with a different grind. I wanted to play with in and compare it to keiths skew which I also have. Should be fun.

 

[MichaelMouse]

I counted yesterday and I have 12 skew or skew like tools. I've been collecting different shaped skews to try and learn the differences. I'm going to build one more tonight which looks like the V scrapers sold with the old Craftsman tool kits. My friend has ground the bevel back a little more and uses it a lot like a skew.

You don't mean a "bruzz(e)." do you? Old bodger's tool for making V cuts in chair legs. It's a cutting tool, of course, rather than a scraper.

Picture one, on the bench far left. Note the convex "skew" fourth from left. http://treewright.blogspot.com/2009/05/craft-illustrators.html

 

[Odie]

The debate goes on and on......

Odie, I am really curious about your results with scraper burrs. I can rough out the inside and outside of a 12 inch bowl with the burr straight from my grinder, no problem, and there still is sufficient edge left to work on another bowl. This seems to be the same with either HSS or the V10 steel from Doug Thompson. I do use the CBN wheels, and have for over 7 years now (older matrix type, and not D Way wheels). I seem to remember the burr being better than I could get from the white grinding wheels though. The burr from a negative rake scraper does vanish quickly, and again, the CBN wheels do give a better burr. I do tend to push into the wheel rather than just kiss the bevel. A honed burr is very delicate, and I have tried them, but don't find them to be worth the effort. I have tried a honed burr from the CBN hone that D Way sells, and maybe it is because I push pretty hard, that burr is also pretty durable, so maybe I am getting a combined burnished/honed burr. I do have a rather blunt bevel angle, in the 60 to 70 degree range, and could see that if you have a 45 degree bevel, that might be more dainty.

robo hippy

Howdy Robo.......

I think it would be best to call this a discussion, rather than a debate. The word "debate" indicates an attempt to prevail, and right from the beginning, I've known there would be disagreement. I've tried to allow some leeway for others to maintain their own opinion, but my beliefs are the result of my experiences in turning bowls.......I've already gone through a lot of "trial and error" in order to come to the conclusions I have......and, for MY purposes, there is definitely a best way. I recognize and understand that my "best way" isn't necessarily going to be what some other turners have come to conclude.

I may be reading into your post incorrectly, but it seems you may be thinking I'm honing my scrapers......is that correct? Well, I'm not......scrapers go directly from Norton SG 80gt grinding wheels to the lathe.

We do seem to differ in overall lathe technique somewhat drastically, in that I use scrapers only on a very limited basis for roughing......the majority of my roughing is done with gouges.

99 percent of my scraper work is for attaining a final tool finish, just prior to beginning the sanding process. The burr from the SG wheels is a good burr, but I don't know how that compares to the CBN wheels that you are using......no experience with that. I can tell you that the burr from the Norton SG wheels is good enough to completely eliminate tearout in all but the most difficult of wood species, conditions, and situations......provided there is proper tool usage with the scraper, and preparation gouge work prior to using the scraper, of course. As I mentioned previously, for the best "tool finish" possible, it does require me to continually dress that scraper on the grinder.......but, I'm talking about mere seconds of time to renew the burr, before getting back to the lathe.

ooc

 

[Odie]

Odie, your personal observations and avoidance of the herd mentality is honored, admired, and commended. I do not wish to be seen as merely antagonistic here. For you, an experienced and accomplished turner, it is not obsessive or compulsive at all. O and C are not all bad. In some cases they can be the driver to get better.

I just think that any turner, especially new ones, should keep it simple and be accurate about what might be stopping them from being better turners. IMO, for beginners, honing and "scary sharp" are on the list but WAY down it.

I have seen this phenomenon in other areas of my life. For instance, in sled dog racing, my other passion, many fall into the trap of thinking that there is some smple trick or secret that they are missing in order too magically make their racing team highly competitive. Many try different diets or training techniques in pursuit of this when the real reason is that their dogs are just not able to perform at that level. They are wasting time and putting themselves under a lot of duress just trying to figure out what secret they're missing.

In turning, I see many shopping for that next new tool that will somehow disappear all the problems that they are having creating a nicely finished piece. Or they are trying to find the correct angle for the tool, as if the angle is the culprit. Astray on the wrong path.

IMO, beginners should have at the top of the list practice, or time behind a tool. Cut wood and a lot of it. Experiment from different presentations to the wood with only a couple of tools at first. Try to watch other turners and how they handle using cutting tools. All this takes time, and that is my point. By getting comfortable with your tools, you will be spending your time to become an accomplished turner in the most efficient way, and you will be taking a more direct path.

Hello again, Mark.......

Pretty much "all of the above" is good, and applicable to the novice turner. I agree that keeping things limited and simple for beginners is a good thing.......but, I also believe that ALL the pertinent information that more experienced turners know, should be available to them. Some will make use of this information, and some will not.......but, it makes no sense to limit everyone to the smallest common denominator......does that make sense?

Even if some information is not used for a duration of time, the learner will be well equipped to make progress if certain more advanced information has exposure to their thoughts.......even if it takes years for that information to ferment into something actually useful to them........

ooc

 

[robo hippy]

Odie,
Yes, discussion it is, not debate. I was pretty sure you went from the grinder to the wood. I have used both my coarse wheel and finer wheel (80 and 180) for raising a burr, and get the more durable one from the coarser wheel.

What kind if nose profile do you use? I have seen them skewed, round nose, and more of ) nose. Most of the time, I will use a swept back profile, like 1/2 of a swept back gouge. I can rough with the nose, and shear cut with the wing. For sure, a very handy tool when you know how to use it.

The effects of honing go from Mike Mahoney 'more serrated cuts better' to the Tormek sharpeners 'less serration leaves a longer lasting edge.' I have wondered if there was any way to 'scientifically' measure edge durability, and cutting efficiency?

robo hippy

 

[John Jordan]

So you have gone on and on and on and on in multiple threads about how the honed edge is superior, and how we were all missing out, and and then you use the scraper off the grinder for the final cuts??????

That doesn't make any sense, but many things don't these days.

Thanks for saying something nice about me.

John

 

[MichaelMouse]

So you have gone on and on and on and on in multiple threads about how the honed edge is superior, and how we were all missing out, and and then you use the scraper off the grinder for the final cuts??????

That doesn't make any sense, but many things don't these days.

Sure it makes sense once you get off the "grit is it" train and look at the presentation. Remember that comb analogy? Even if he's got 40 to the inch scratches, they don't play at a shear angle like they do perpendicular.

Makes sense to hone a carbon steel tool. It isn't brittle, so the edge will roll a bit, and needs the realignment and removal a hone can give it. Sort of like the steel on that turkey knife.

 

[Dale Miner]

Mickey,

The statement "it isn't brittle" makes a lot of assumptions. For the most part, high speed steels have a higher Charpy value at equal hardness than carbon steels. In other words, M2 at 62 Rockwell C would be tougher than O2 at 62 Rockwell C. Higher Charpy = tougher = less brittle.

I don't have a chart that makes a direct comparison of every type of carbon steel to every type of HSS, but if you want to muddle around on the net, here is a good place to start.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Kw...page&q=charpy values high speed steel&f=false

I actually think that the edge doesn't "roll a bit" at the grinder, but the burr of ground material remains hanging on the edge. Mechanically creating a cutting edge with another piece of hardened material will roll a very tiny edge of the parent material, but to have any uniformity to that rolled edge, the edge of the parent material will need to be uniform prior to rolling, hence the need to hone prior to mechanically 'rolling' the edge.

Alan Lacer did a pretty extensive study on burrs from the grinder complete with photomicrographs. I don't recall the issue, but it was in the American Woodturner a couple of years ago.

The only tools I hone are my skews, and occasionally a touch up to the point of the detail gouge. I do occasionally mechanically roll the edge of my hss scrapers following honing the edge but usually use the scrapers straight from the grinder. I only use scrapers in a shear mode.

 

[Odie]

So you have gone on and on and on and on in multiple threads about how the honed edge is superior, and how we were all missing out, and and then you use the scraper off the grinder for the final cuts??????

That doesn't make any sense, but many things don't these days.

Thanks for saying something nice about me.

John

Howdy John......

The sense in it..... is in the results! A finish that requires very little sanding is the objective, and that objective has been met. (As usual, this is not to deny that other turners have found their own methods of coming to the exact same result while using entirely different methods.) The difference is probably not just this one thing being discussed, but a combination of technical aspects, in conjunction with style and technique, but it really can't be disputed that the end result is the ONLY thing that really matters.

You are welcome John. You, are one of many turners who have contributed to my advancement as a turner. Some of your input as an instructor, is information I still use, to this day! In the end, though, it is the student who insists on his own latitude in technical creativity, rather than the student who merely follows directions.......who makes all the discoveries!......

One thing I've learned is, even among turners who have acquired the status you have attained......there is still a lack of agreement on the basics.......so, when you say it doesn't make sense, it's simply an indicator of opinion......and not what is working for any individual turner. Would you care to comment on Mike Mahoney's use of gouges straight from a grinder using a coarse grit wheel?

The honed edge of the gouge is that which boosts the capabilities of the cut to the point where the scraper is only used as a final touch up of the surface, even though that final touch-up represents 90 percent of the work.....and the visual appeal. It is used fresh from the grinder, because that's when the burr edge is at it's sharpest, and most productive. Delicate application, and technique is key. I re-new the edge frequently, because, as you know, the burr does dull quickly. I don't wait until after the burr NEEDS to be re-newed. The point between "need" and "should" is critical to progress, and to overstep that boundary can be negative, or a "back pedal".

ooc

 

[MichaelMouse]

Mickey,

The statement "it isn't brittle" makes a lot of assumptions.

I actually think that the edge doesn't "roll a bit" at the grinder, but the burr of ground material remains hanging on the edge.

Not the grinder, the work. It rolls, harder alloys chip away.

As to the quality of alloys versus HCS, these are turner-generated. http://www.woodturnersamerica.com/i...-little-time&catid=99:jerry-wright&Itemid=149

http://www.woodturninglearn.net/articles/ToolSteel.pdf

The chipping resistance number is particularly telling. Don't have to assume much when you compare the numbers.

 

[robo hippy]

Well, there are burrs, and there are burrs. With the standard AlO wheels, you can get a 'flap' type burr that if you wiggle it back and forth some, it will break off. With the CBN wheels, the burr is different. You can not wiggle it at all. I can't tell you why there is this difference. The 'flap' type burr will cut, but not for long as it breaks off. If you really press the scraper into the stone, you can get a burr that rolls over a bit, kind of like a breaking wave. You can do the same thing with a burnished burr (hone off grinder burr, and burnish with a hard steel rod, or the Veritas burnishing tool) if you press really hard, and/or have the burnishing rod at a 45 or so degree angle to the top of the scraper, rather than almost just flush with the face. You can just barely kiss the bevel on the grinding wheels and get a smaller burr, but it is stronger than the heavy burr when you press hard into the wheel. The coarser burr from the standard grinding wheels does dull quickly for another reason, and this is my theory: a coarse burr will tend to catch micro shavings in the 'teeth' and while not dull, it doesn't cut well (teeth tend to be ragged, not refined like on a well sharpened saw). This happens to a lesser extent with the CBN wheel burr. I have cleaned them up a bit by rubbing the burr through some wood almost like you are sawing through rather than scraping or shear cutting. There is minor improvement. The fine burnished burr does cut better and more cleanly than one off the grinder, and you can turn the burr a couple of times before needing to go back to the grinder. I can turn one with a triangle burnishing tool, but don't do so well with a round one. Most of the time, it is just not worth the effort.

Me to my dad, "Opinions are like rear ends, every one has one."

Dad, "Yea, and some of them stink!"

Me, "Yea, and some of them are pretty hot!"

What cuts best? No way to prove any of the methods to every one's satisfaction. You just have to experiment.

robo hippy

 

[Odie]

Not the grinder, the work. It rolls, harder alloys chip away.

As to the quality of alloys versus HCS, these are turner-generated. http://www.woodturnersamerica.com/i...-little-time&catid=99:jerry-wright&Itemid=149

http://www.woodturninglearn.net/articles/ToolSteel.pdf

The chipping resistance number is particularly telling. Don't have to assume much when you compare the numbers.

That was a good read, MM.....

I can't claim to be that technically aware of all the different steels, and how well they hold up. From my limited experience of what I have had the opportunity to use, I believe the M2, or similar HSS is the most useful range of steels we have available to us. I've used a few carbon steel tools years ago, and I don't think I'll get much disagreement that the edge holding ability isn't worth using them......that is, as long as HSS is available. If carbon steel tools were all I could get, I'd have no problem producing turnings that are the equal of what I do now......but, I'd have to work at it a little harder to get the same end result.

I've purchased a few harder base steel gouges and scrapers (I think the designation was 2085, or something like that......I'm on vacation right now, so can't go out to the shop and look.) I couldn't comment on this steel's tendency to chip, although I suspect the chipping tendency may be correct. What I have noticed is the harder steels are noticeably more difficult to grind an edge. I believe the edge does last longer, but I'm not so sure the price to pay in difficulty to acquire and maintain the edge is worth the effort......and, the added cost is another consideration!

For my purposes, I've pretty much decided to stay with HSS, M2, or similar. This is, IMHO, the best compromise of ability to grind, edge holding capability, cost, availability.....etc.


ooc

 

[john lucas]

Odie Once you get a good edge on the hard steels it's easy to maintain. I thought the same as you when I first got my Thompson gouges. Now I would not go back. I really would like to try the new harder thompsons or the D way that's hardened to 67R just to see how they do.
Now that I've used the Thompsons for several years I don't even notice the difference in sharpening time between them and any of my other tools.

 

[robo hippy]

The metal heads seem to agree that most of the steels will get to the same degree of sharpness, but some are easier to get there than others. When I compare the Thompson and D Way to the HSS, the wearability, as in great for roughing is way higher in Doug and Daves tools than in the HSS. For finish cuts, I still prefer a fresh from the grinder edge. It just works better. I haven't tried the V 15 yet, and don't know if I will. I did talk to Doug about it, and he said it is more expensive, it does tend to chip more, and is questionable as to weather it is worth the extra effort to make and worth the expense to the turners. I may have to get one, well, maybe more than one, and see how they work. Probably have to get a scraper also, but I may put that on hold till after I get some 'Big Ugly' scrapers made. Tantung steel (which is a cast metal), silver soldered onto some cold rolled bar stock. Not quite as hard as carbide, but you can resharpen it easily.

I have been using CBN wheels for so long, I don't notice any difference in sharpening the different steels.

robo hippy

 

[Dale Miner]

Not the grinder, the work. It rolls, harder alloys chip away.

As to the quality of alloys versus HCS, these are turner-generated. http://www.woodturnersamerica.com/i...-little-time&catid=99:jerry-wright&Itemid=149

http://www.woodturninglearn.net/articles/ToolSteel.pdf

The chipping resistance number is particularly telling. Don't have to assume much when you compare the numbers.

Mickey, again, your answer is more confusing than informative.

"not the grinder, the work. It rolls, harder alloys chip away" makes no sense.

Most tool steel alloys can be hardened to the point of brittleness, or annealed to full softness. Try making your turkey knife from a file, giving it a full water quench. The edge will chip away if you try to use a steel on it. Quench in oil and draw the temper back a bit, and you can carve away with only an occasional touch of the steel.

Make a hook tool from O1, quench it in oil and try to use it straight from the oil. The edge will be so brittle that it will chip very easily. Draw it back to a straw color( approx Rockwell 55), and it will give good service. A Termite tool is essentially a closed hook tool made from HSS with a hardness of approx 62 Rockwell. The edge of the Termite is very chip resistant, indicating that it is not brittle. The edge of a HSS Termite will outlast the edge on a properly tempered O1 hook tool many times over.

Your original statement was that carbon steels are not brittle and made no mention of chip resistance. You are now changing the basis for your claim that carbon steal is not brittle by citing an article that deals with chip resistance instead of brittleness. The woodturners america article you cited as supportive for your statement indicates the value is 'experience based'. Charpy values determine toughness and are laboratory measured. Also the article does not give the Rockwell value for the material when it is rated using the experiened based system. It is very possible that a hss material at Rockwell 62 will chip easier than a carbon tool at Rockwell 52. The wear resistance of a tool from either material at 62 will be much greater than one at 52, and the wear resistance of the HSS tool will be greater than a carbon tool.

If you are happy with carbon tools, then by all means, use them. I think they are fine tools when used within their limitations. Generalized statements as to their superiority do little to inform without empirical data to explain the statements.

The article by Alan Lacer that you cited is not the article that deals with burr development. It discusses the various manufacturers tools and the chemisty of the tools. The article does mention the qualities of HSS, one of those being sufficient toughness to withstand chipping. I did not see any reference in that article to carbon steel tools.

Many people read this forum that do not have a background in metallurgy, and will form misconceptions from erroneous statements, or statements based upon a fraction of what is involved. If not for that possibility, I would not have responded to your "it isn't brittle" statement. There are many factors that enter into brittleness.

I recall the saying "Wrestling with a pig in mud is pointless. In the end you will get dirty, and the pig enjoys it". I don't think it makes any sense to wrestle this pig any longer.

 

[John Jordan]

Howdy John......

It is used fresh from the grinder, because that's when the burr edge is at it's sharpest, and most productive. Delicate application, and technique is key.

ooc

That's exactly how/why I use the grinder edge on my gouge. That's what I don't understand.

I haven't used a carbon steel tool in nearly thirty years.

I'm not going to keep on with this, as the pig seems pretty pleased , but one thing is certain: ANY method of sharpening that gives one some sort of acceptable result, that is done frequently and before its really needed, will put one ahead of 3/4ths of other turners. And yes, I made that number up, but its pretty close.

Carry on.........

John

 

[MichaelMouse]

Mickey, again, your answer is more confusing than informative.

"not the grinder, the work. It rolls, harder alloys chip away" makes no sense.

It does if you read it. I was not speaking of sharpening, but dulling, which comes from the bending of the points in use, rather than their breaking away. This is done by the work, not the grinder. If you look at the photomicrographs you see those teeth which the flat scrape presenters are using to sand their surface actually form the edge. Larger or smaller, according to the size of the grit that dug 'em, modified by the actual grain size of the metal. Certain alloys form larger internal crystals during the process because of the other metals, which, I assume is the source of the "carbon steel can be sharpened better" folklore. Might have been true with some early attempts to use other alloys compared to forged tools.

As to the Lacer article, you see that "sufficient" impact toughness is a desirable quality. As is hardenability. They are two different things. You seem to be linking them, where he and others do not.

OD, it's still more presentation than number of sharpenings. Proper presentation will minimize those trips to the grinder. I know more than a few folks who were using "dull tools" who were amazed at what happened when they changed the presentation of the same edge. I grind because the wearability - a third quality of HSSs - makes honing slow. The diamond hones are better than others, but still not as fast at a new edge as that India on carbon. Because of this, I have to say that I'm not sure but that carbon steel tools, stoned rather than ground, might last longer per inch than the HSSs. From observing people who use grinding jigs and look for no 'facets" as their criteria, might last a lot longer.

 

[Odie]

That's exactly how/why I use the grinder edge on my gouge. That's what I don't understand.

I haven't used a carbon steel tool in nearly thirty years.

I'm not going to keep on with this, as the pig seems pretty pleased , but one thing is certain: ANY method of sharpening that gives one some sort of acceptable result, that is done frequently and before its really needed, will put one ahead of 3/4ths of other turners. And yes, I made that number up, but its pretty close.

Carry on.........

John

John......

It would be easy to understand through simple experimentation.....

Take a bowl in progress, preferably from a difficult species, and do a test cut with a gouge straight from the grinder. Then regrind and hone the same gouge and test again.....same bowl, same speed, same everything. If there is an improvement, then honing is worthwhile, if there is no difference, then it isn't......pretty simple, really!

While doing this test, I've found the sharper edge of the honed gouge left a better, more cleanly cut surface.

For me, and my purposes, the honed edge is the better way to go. We all have complicated differences involving technique, style, tool choices, physical differences.....and on, and on, and on........ Because of all the possible differences, I have from the beginning, understood that what is best for me, may or may not be what's best for everyone. My purpose was to simply expose my methods and beliefs to those who will listen. My way of doing things involve a little more work and effort......and, for the results I'm getting, it's worth it!

It was never my intent to suggest that my way would be better for everyone else, or for that matter, anyone else.....but for me, it is! For those who are still yet undecided on this, I'm putting my experiences forward for exposure...... I would imagine those who actually do some testing will be divided into those who agree that a honed edge produces the better cut, and those who don't. Without being exposed to an alternative point of view, some of these people will go on forever without ever knowing something simple, like honing, might enable them to see some improvement in their own turning.

Your final point about 3/4 of turners waiting until past when they should be sharpening is what I suspect, as well......I don't instruct individual students, like you do, but I've come to this same conclusion from the input I see here........and, because human nature is what it is!

ooc

BTW: It's been about 30 years since I've used carbon steel tools, as well. There is the occasional use where I use them for a specialty purpose, because they do grind and shape a little easier........I wouldn't buy one. Are carbon steel tools still available?


(Sorry, no spell checker on this computer.....I'm on vacation!)

 

[Mark Levitski]

Who says it's only the pig that enjoys the wrestling?

 

[john lucas]

I enjoy mud wrestling but I don't remember any pits at the event I went to.

 

[Thomas Stegall]

Another fine mess...

While I appreciate Odie's intent to provide information to new turners, and sharpening is certainly an area lacking, it seems to me there are a few basics that I think should be mentioned. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong;

#1 A good cut with a reasonably sharpened cutting tool will usually provide a better surface than scraping with an equally sharp scraping tool.

New and not so new turners will get a better surface if they develop sufficent tool control with cutting tools that they don't need to follow cutting with scraping in the first place. (obviously reaching into some areas or presentation angles require scraping). This I believe is the most important skill and most overlooked issue. One of the first lessons I give is to have a student turn a specific shape without scraping or sanding. The shape and surface quality of a piece straight off of cutting tools will tell you alot more about the skills of a turner and what needs to be learned.

#2 A distinction should be made between the usefulness of honing for final cuts vs. stock removal.

While this may be obivous to us, to a new woodturner this assumption of understanding may be missed. Some pieces I have hollowed were sufficently large and turned green to a thin final thinkness requiring the hollowing to be done in a single day, taking 8-10 hours. If I stopped to hone every two minutes during the bulk removal, I wouldn't get anything finished.

#3 For new woodturners it does little good to get them to achieve 99 percent of possible sharpeness of a given tool, if their tool control is still at 40 percent.

What they need is the ability to get a tool reasonably sharp, and then they need to stand at the lathe and turn, turn turn.

#4 Excellent Tool control trumps a razor sharp tool every time. A fairly dull tool in the hands of a master will do better than a razor sharp tool out of control in the hands of a newbie.

Basic sharpening skills are absolutely essential, but the idea that new turners who can't cut a basic smooth curve with a gouge need to hone their tools after every two minutes (as the example given) seems to be putting the cart before the horses.

 

[hockenbery]

Thomas,
Good points!!
I think this thread has little value for the new turner.

My teaching technique is similar to yours
With beginner I concentrate on tool use and getting a clean surface from the gouge
A couple of basic cuts, body movement, sharpening with a jig, and hand positions.
With intermediates I concentrate on form and advanced tool usage.

With beginners it is important not to tell them too much too fast.

Al

 

[Odie]

While I appreciate Odie's intent to provide information to new turners, and sharpening is certainly an area lacking, it seems to me there are a few basics that I think should be mentioned. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong;

#1 A good cut with a reasonably sharpened cutting tool will usually provide a better surface than scraping with an equally sharp scraping tool.

New and not so new turners will get a better surface if they develop sufficent tool control with cutting tools that they don't need to follow cutting with scraping in the first place. (obviously reaching into some areas or presentation angles require scraping). This I believe is the most important skill and most overlooked issue. One of the first lessons I give is to have a student turn a specific shape without scraping or sanding. The shape and surface quality of a piece straight off of cutting tools will tell you alot more about the skills of a turner and what needs to be learned.

#2 A distinction should be made between the usefulness of honing for final cuts vs. stock removal.

While this may be obivous to us, to a new woodturner this assumption of understanding may be missed. Some pieces I have hollowed were sufficently large and turned green to a thin final thinkness requiring the hollowing to be done in a single day, taking 8-10 hours. If I stopped to hone every two minutes during the bulk removal, I wouldn't get anything finished.

#3 For new woodturners it does little good to get them to achieve 99 percent of possible sharpeness of a given tool, if their tool control is still at 40 percent.

What they need is the ability to get a tool reasonably sharp, and then they need to stand at the lathe and turn, turn turn.

#4 Excellent Tool control trumps a razor sharp tool every time. A fairly dull tool in the hands of a master will do better than a razor sharp tool out of control in the hands of a newbie.

Basic sharpening skills are absolutely essential, but the idea that new turners who can't cut a basic smooth curve with a gouge need to hone their tools after every two minutes (as the example given) seems to be putting the cart before the horses.

Thanks for input here, Thomas

I also agree with these points......with the exception of point #1........

A scraper IS a cutting tool, when used to it's full potential as a finishing tool.

We, more advanced turners, who have taken this further than the original concept, probably have taken this far beyond what could be useful for all but the most astute of basic turners. I'd have to agree with that point, however the degree of sharpness has merit for most all basic turners, in that it does increase their potential. This is not to acknowledge that many of them will not take advantage of having a sharp tool.......but, there will be some who will. It's true that there are many other things to learn that are an absolute necessity, but creating a sharp edge from which to build on the other skills, IMHO......is also a necessity!

ooc