Aluminum, steel, cast metal faceplates......pros and cons?

[Odie]

All my faceplates are either steel or cast metal (Oneway).......

More and more so, we're seeing aluminum faceplates being offered to turners. In the world of machine tools, aluminum generally means cheaper, and not as good.

Those in the turning catalogs seem to be a little cheaper, but not by a wide margin. I assume they are easier to produce, and that's why the difference in cost.

Can we assume the aluminum faceplates do not have the hardness of steel? If not, I'd guess they would tend to wear faster (If that's a big deal!) and less resistant to stress, and warping......?

Anyway, I just thought I'd pose the question and see if any of you have any practical experience with the aluminum.......and, what is your impression of them.

And who knows what the composition of the Oneway faceplates are? Are they plain old cast iron?

ooc

 

[Vaughn]

I've had good success with the aluminum faceplates Don Pencil sells. I could see a steel faceplate outlasting an aluminum one, but I don't think I'll wear any of my aluminum ones out at the rate I'm going. I do have the steel faceplate that came with my 3520 and have used it for a couple of extra large pieces, but I've had no complaints with the aluminum ones. Plus, they don't rust if left on a piece of wet wood overnight. (The screws holding it in place might, though.)

 

[John Fabre]

I prefer Oneway's stainless steel for wet woods, steel or cast for everything else. I would only use aluminum faceplates on mini lathes or handwheels.

 

[Brian Libby]

I have also pondered this !. My theory has always been that the faceplate should have mass and therefore weight.

Aluminum used with the mini lathe should work fine BUT for larger projects I prefer cast iron or steel.

 

[Odie]

.....but I've had no complaints with the aluminum ones. Plus, they don't rust if left on a piece of wet wood overnight. (The screws holding it in place might, though.)

Hello Vaughn......good to hear from you.

Just a side note about rust on screws. After having some screws rust and break on removal......I got fed up with that, and bought some stainless steel screws in various lengths from the local hardware store. If one is careful not to bugger the heads, they can be used repeatedly.......almost indefinitely!

ooc

 

[Vaughn]

...I would only use aluminum faceplates on mini lathes or handwheels.

Out of curiosity, why? (And I don't mean that in a snarky way, I'm genuinely curious.) Have you seen or heard of an aluminum faceplate failing? Aluminum is apparently strong enough, or at least it has proven to be so in my experience, and I'm not sure the additional pound or two of mass that steel provides is any real advantage when spinning a 50 or 60 pound blank. I'm sure the stainless steel Oneway faceplates are the among best made, but are they really worth three times the cost compared to an aluminum one? I suspect if you use a faceplate day in and day out, it quite possibly would be worth the money due to longevity. (The screw holes on the aluminum one are more likely to get wallowed out over time.) For someone using a faceplate a few times a year like me, I don't know that the steel faceplate would be worth the extra expense, especially if the tool budget's tight.

 

[MichaelMouse]

I'm not sure the flywheel effect of a steel versus equal size aluminum faceplate would be significant.

Corrosion is another problem altogether. If you use steel screws, the aluminum will become the sacrificial metal in the galvanic cell created by leaving the dissimilar metals together with enough moisture to serve as electrolyte. The aluminum would eat away if you neglected it for a long enough period (year?). Aluminum oxide is also abrasive, and sticks to the surface rather than flaking off, but a bit of extra resistance to unscrewing isn't fatal. Might be a whole different matter if you failed to screw it down and the softer metal jammed in the steel threads of the spindle when you turned your lathe on.

 

[Stuart Johnson]

The problem I have had with aluminum faceplates is when using an aluminum tailstock chuck adapter with the faceplate. One threaded on as nice as could be , no forcing or excess force. Once one it was locked and would not unscrew. I ended up cutting it off. Another worked just about the same way but I don't thread it on all the way. A third I have no problem with threading or unthreading. Someone on another list explained (right or wrong) that the structure of aluminum looks sort of like fish scales. As a result it is possible to for the scales on the chuck adapter and chuck to lock together. I don't know if this is true or not but the one I cut of was certainly locked tight. I have no problem with my one steel chuck and adapter or with any of my aluminum ones and the steel threads on the spindle. I would not hesitate purchasing aluminum based on the difference in price and will someday buy a OneWay adapter.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Depends

For small. "light" work, the aluminum is fine. I have several 2" and 3". But for larger wood, especially where you'll be working 12-15" away from the headstock I only use steel. I buy mine from Seahorse Fabrication. They come in with a 1/2" plate faced dead flat and true that stays that way no matter what I hang on them. They also double counterbore the screw holes so that the plate doesn't get jacked away from the wood when setting the screws. I don't care for cast because even with quality manufacture, castings can be or get brittle. Cast steel not as much, but cast iron alloys need to be closely watched to balance toughness with rigidity in the final product.

 

[n7bsn]

Stuart makes an good point, using an Aluminum face-plate on an Aluminum shaft should be avoided. Galling is especially bad with Aluminum to Aluminum contact.

George (MM) also makes a good point on flywheel effect. It's really not an issue

For those that think that Aluminum is not strong enough for heavy objects, well... I suggest that it's still stronger then any wood you can come up with, and more then strong enough for any practical wood-turning application.

I also use Don Pencil face-plates for number of specialty drives, like one for making thimbles, various friction fits. I also tend to use then as the wood attachment with a Vicmarc VOD

TTFN
Ralph

 

[John Jordan]

I use both in 4-1/2 and 6 inch sizes. There is no difference to me, and I only use them when the pieces are fairly large. The aluminum ones are plenty thick-maybe 3/8 inch.

John

 

[Barbara Gill]

The only aluminum faceplate I have ever used came with my first lathe, a Nova 3000. It was useless as it flexed. Because I was a new turner, it took awhile to figure out what was going on. I have two faceplates now, both Oneway.

 

[Steve Worcester]

I have used the Pencil and Bestwood aluminum faceplates, up to 6" with no issues. A current style aluminum faceplate is pretty thick, the Bestwoods I have is .6" thick.

The only issue other than how tight they are on a tailstock adapter, which a little oil or neverseaze fixes, is the screw holes can get elongated from removing hardened screws.

For screws, try the Simpson Strong-drive screws. I use hex head 1/4" and they are hardened and made for wood fence construction, so are zinc (I think) plated or galvanized. You won't snap them.

 

[John Fabre]

Out of curiosity, why? (And I don't mean that in a snarky way, I'm genuinely curious.) Have you seen or heard of an aluminum faceplate failing? Aluminum is apparently strong enough, or at least it has proven to be so in my experience, and I'm not sure the additional pound or two of mass that steel provides is any real advantage when spinning a 50 or 60 pound blank. I'm sure the stainless steel Oneway faceplates are the among best made, but are they really worth three times the cost compared to an aluminum one? I suspect if you use a faceplate day in and day out, it quite possibly would be worth the money due to longevity. (The screw holes on the aluminum one are more likely to get wallowed out over time.) For someone using a faceplate a few times a year like me, I don't know that the steel faceplate would be worth the extra expense, especially if the tool budget's tight.

In my opinion, aluminum will warp, when tightening on an uneven surface and flex when spinning. If you use thicker aluminum on the faceplate, not so much, but it defeats the purpose. Stainless steel is also a soft metal compared to steel but is more stable than aluminum.
Nothing wrong using an aluminum faceplate every day, I just don’t use it turning over 10â€. My mini aluminum cole jaw works great for smaller work.

 

[Vaughn]

...If you use thicker aluminum on the faceplate, not so much, but it defeats the purpose...

Which purpose? As I see it, the purpose of a faceplate in the first place is to attach the wood to a lathe. Aluminum does that just fine. I use longer screws to compensate for the thicker plate. And I'm pretty certain my faceplates are not warping when I turn an 18" bowl.

 

[John Fabre]

Which purpose? As I see it, the purpose of a faceplate in the first place is to attach the wood to a lathe. Aluminum does that just fine. I use longer screws to compensate for the thicker plate. And I'm pretty certain my faceplates are not warping when I turn an 18" bowl.

Strength while turning, aluminum threads wear and a greater chance of cross threading. Do they make an aluminum insert, chucks or aluminum jaw sets? I know my cole jaw sets are aluminum, works great fot turning small light weight platters.

Would you use aluminum screws? I like to match the screws with the same metal as the faceplate. Stainless steel faceplate with stainless steel screws, steel faceplate with steel screws.

I don't trust aluminum for heavy duty turning.

 

[Vaughn]

Strength while turning, aluminum threads wear and a greater chance of cross threading. Do they make an aluminum insert, chucks or aluminum jaw sets? I know my cole jaw sets are aluminum, works great fot turning small light weight platters.

Would you use aluminum screws? I like to match the screws with the same metal as the faceplate. Stainless steel faceplate with stainless steel screws, steel faceplate with steel screws.

I don't trust aluminum for heavy duty turning.

Valid points on the aluminum chucks and jaws. To be strong enough they would have to be too thick to be of use. (Cole jaws don't count.) I do have a couple sets of plastic jaws for my Novas, but here again, they're very thick compared to steel jaws. And I agree the threads can wear faster, and if worn too badly, could be subject to cross-threading. I won't use the faceplate if the threads are noticeably worn. So far, none of mine are showing enough wear for me to be concerned. I also don't romp down on it when I screw the faceplate onto the spindle. (I don't recall ever having to use a wrench to remove one, either.)

Screws? They're under a whole different set of forces than the faceplate itself is. The screws are primarily seeing a shear load, but the faceplate is getting a combination of compressive and tensile loads. I don't dispute that a given cross section of typical steel is stronger...I'm saying the current aluminum faceplates, in the thicknesses sold, are more than strong enough to do the job. I think this is evidenced by the lack of reports of aluminum faceplate failures reported.

I'm not saying you're wrong in insisting on steel faceplates. I'm just saying the aluminum ones aren't wrong either. Have you used one?

 

[Joe Greiner]

The corrosion concern that MM mentions is mitigated by the small amount of steel vs. the large amount of aluminum. Google [corrosion area effect] for insight. Aluminum screws in a steel faceplate, OTOH, would be a disaster-in-waiting. Aircraft are typically constructed of large sheets of aluminum with stainless steel or titanium rivets, with great success.

A more noteworthy concern is at the spindle-faceplate interface, where the area effect doesn't apply. I use a plexiglas washer at the spindle shoulder, with either steel or aluminum faceplates, and also with a scroll chuck, to relieve binding. Also, don't leave the aluminum faceplate attached any longer than necessary, so that they don't become "married." And, as Don Garlits used to say, "Oil is the cheapest thing we've got. Use plenty of it."

For equivalent flexural stiffness of a flat bar, aluminum should be about 1.5 times the thickness of steel; substantially the same for disks.

Curiously enough, faceplates seem to be in short supply. I waited about 3 months recently to get a couple from Harbor Freight, and yesterday, Grizzly advised me of a wait time until mid-March for some aluminum ones.

 

[n7bsn]

....

Curiously enough, faceplates seem to be in short supply. I waited about 3 months recently to get a couple from Harbor Freight, and yesterday, Grizzly advised me of a wait time until mid-March for some aluminum ones.

Check Don Pencil's web site for availability in your size, he is currently out of a couple sizes, but most are in-stock.

If you want to save money, check out his BLEMS

(he often offers discounts to AAW members, but I don't know if he is now or not)

Ralph

 

[n7bsn]

Strength while turning, aluminum threads wear and a greater chance of cross threading. Do they make an aluminum insert, chucks or aluminum jaw sets? I know my cole jaw sets are aluminum, works great fot turning small light weight platters.

Would you use aluminum screws? I like to match the screws with the same metal as the faceplate. Stainless steel faceplate with stainless steel screws, steel faceplate with steel screws.

I don't trust aluminum for heavy duty turning.

Sorry John, but your points really don't work. There are reasons why Aluminum is used throughout the aircraft and boat industries, strength vrs weight, Aluminum wins.

Personally the only faceplates I would avoid are cast iron, cast iron is not just weaker (lb for lb) then Aluminum, it also can suffer from shock-load fracturing much easier then either Steel or Aluminum.

TTFN
Ralph

 

[MichaelMouse]

Other than hanging on my pegboard, are there any more zinc (white metal) faceplates out there? "Came with" on Ol' Blue, and was as worthless as any turning item I've ever seen.

 

[Brian Libby]

Aluminum will fail much quicker than steel under vibration conditions.

 

[John Fabre]

Sorry John, but your points really don't work. There are reasons why Aluminum is used throughout the aircraft and boat industries, strength vrs weight, Aluminum wins.

Personally the only faceplates I would avoid are cast iron, cast iron is not just weaker (lb for lb) then Aluminum, it also can suffer from shock-load fracturing much easier then either Steel or Aluminum.

TTFN
Ralph

I don't see oil tankers made from aluminum, when you say the boat industries, are you talking little fishing boats. The landing gear isn't made from aluminum, everything under stress is steel.

Yes, cast iron isn't great for faceplates. Would you fire a cannon made from aluminum or steel?

Ralph, would you shoot an aluminum gun or a gun made from steel? Would you use an all aluminum engine block without steel sleeves for the pistons?

Aluminum has it places, I rather drink from aluminum then run into combat with aluminum knife. I wonder what would have happened if we made our tanks out of aluminum or our battle ships. Snap On could come out with all new tools made from aluminum. We could call it American aluminum and do away with American steel.

 

[Alan Trout]

I have fired over 700,000 rounds of shotgun shells through my set of aluminum Briley tubs in my skeet gun. and have never had single issue with them and there are thousands of sets of sub-gauge tubs out there in the skeet world that have done the same for over 30 years.

Most of these aluminum face plates are hard anodized which help prevent galling on threads. If worried about galling use a little ant-seize on the threads. Steel flexes plenty all of this depends on the grade of aluminum an steel being used. 6061 has different properties than 7075 and 4130 has different properties that cold rolled mild steel.

For 99.9% of our turning applications aluminum if sized correctly, proper screws and proper diameter are used with the size of the blank there should never be an issue.

Alan

 

[John Fabre]

I have fired over 700,000 rounds of shotgun shells through my set of aluminum Briley tubs in my skeet gun. and have never had single issue with them and there are thousands of sets of sub-gauge tubs out there in the skeet world that have done the same for over 30 years.

Alan

I didn't know some target shooting shotguns were made from aluminum. Are they 10 gauge or 12 gauge?

 

[Alan Trout]

20,28, and .410. .410 has the slowest powder to try to keep pressures down. Pressure in a .410 bore can get very dangerous with the wrong powder. As you constrict the bore the pressure increases. the 20 gauge tubes have about .020 wall thickness. Of course there are dozens of semi-auto shotguns that the receivers are aluminum. The tubes are used so you can shoot all 4 competition gauges with one gun so the balance and feel are correct. I shoot the utra-light tubes that are all weight matched and have lightening rings cut into the tubes. These of course at in a fixed breech gun such as an over and under. The tubes only contact the barrel at the end and at the chamber the rest of the tub is free floating in the original barrel.

My point is properly engineered products can use a lot of different materials. No reason that aluminum can't be used as a faceplate.

Alan

 

[steelguy]

Right YOu Are!

Alan, you are quite correct. Cast iron, cast steel, cast aluminum, and yes cast "pot or white metal" as well as welded structures of many materials can all be used successfully as a face plate - if their specific material properties are considered in their design. There are no all or nothing choices in most materials. There are cast iron as well as welded steel tool rests - same story. Design, cost optimization, materials availability - there are many ways to skin the same cat.

Remember when all machine tools were cast iron (cost, ease of manufacture, inherent vibration damping), then EPA restrictions on foundry emissions phased most gray iron foundries out of business throughout the 70s, 80s?Then people began designing lathes out of welded steels (e.g. Oneway), and cast iron machine tools all began coming from off shore. Now many bandsaws are welded structures - I have one and it is just fine.

Materials usage and application is full of "urban legends" - kind of like the gouge vs scraper "wars".

Thanks for getting the thread back on track.

Jerry - woodturner, furniture builder, steelmaker, metallurgist, materials application specialist - and yes, materials philosopher!!!

 

[Bill Boehme]

I have a number of the Don Pencil aluminum faceplates. They are very well made, true running, heavy duty, and have a very durable anodized coating. I have a steel faceplate that has rusted and a cast iron one that came with my lathe that doesn't quite run true and the aluminum ones still look new. The discussion regarding contact between dissimilar metals really does not apply in any significant way here. If we were talking about a permanent installation in a wet environment for years (such as carrier based Navy aircraft or a plumbing valve buried in the ground) then it would be meaningful. The faceplates are normally made from 7075 or 6061 alloy both of which are corrosion resistant.

The suggestion regarding a heavy faceplate being an advantage because of its "flywheel" effect is actually a destabilizing disadvantage on lathes with electronic variable speed control. One of the most important engineering design goals is to minimize the reflected load moment of inertia to the motor to be no more than three times the rotors moment of inertia. Having a large moment of inertia especially at low speed can, in some cases, result in complete loss of speed regulation (i.e., wild oscillations). This issue can often be greatly exacerbated if by accident the drive belt is left in the high speed range while turning at very low speed. Most of the time, the moment of the wood at the beginning is much greater than the faceplate, but it is still not a good idea to ignore the total load moment of inertia.

 

[Vaughn]

I don't see oil tankers made from aluminum, when you say the boat industries, are you talking little fishing boats. The landing gear isn't made from aluminum, everything under stress is steel.

Yes, cast iron isn't great for faceplates. Would you fire a cannon made from aluminum or steel?

Ralph, would you shoot an aluminum gun or a gun made from steel? Would you use an all aluminum engine block without steel sleeves for the pistons?

Aluminum has it places, I rather drink from aluminum then run into combat with aluminum knife. I wonder what would have happened if we made our tanks out of aluminum or our battle ships. Snap On could come out with all new tools made from aluminum. We could call it American aluminum and do away with American steel.

With all due respect, you're not making a lot of sense. Do you realize that different applications put different stresses on a material? The stresses a knife, or oil tanker, gun barrel, or end wrench are subjected to have no relation whatsoever to the question at hand...face plates. You're comparing apples and water buffaloes.

 

[John Fabre]

Is Don Pencil's aluminum faceplates machined to thread on lathes or do they require an insert? I'll buy a 6" aluminum faceplate to give it a whirl, if there that popular. What the heck, I shouldn't knock it if I haven't tried it.

 

[n7bsn]

I don't see oil tankers made from aluminum, when you say the boat industries, are you talking little fishing boats. The landing gear isn't made from aluminum, everything under stress is steel.

Yes, cast iron isn't great for faceplates. Would you fire a cannon made from aluminum or steel?

Ralph, would you shoot an aluminum gun or a gun made from steel? Would you use an all aluminum engine block without steel sleeves for the pistons?

Aluminum has it places, I rather drink from aluminum then run into combat with aluminum knife. I wonder what would have happened if we made our tanks out of aluminum or our battle ships. Snap On could come out with all new tools made from aluminum. We could call it American aluminum and do away with American steel.

John

My 410 is also made from Aluminum.

Oh, ya. warships are made from Aluminum, including the USS Independence LCS-2, which was commissioned in Jan 2010. My (former) employer also has a number of Aluminum hulled Torpedo retrievers that I spent a far amount of the last few years on.

Other large Aluminum ships include the Pacificat Ferries of BC (400ft 1000 passenger, but they turned in a fiasco unrelated to their use of Aluminum).

Aluminum has a place in a number of industries, including faceplates.

 

[n7bsn]

Is Don Pencil's aluminum faceplates machined to thread on lathes or do they require an insert? I'll buy a 6" aluminum faceplate to give it a whirl, if there that popular. What the heck, I shouldn't knock it if I haven't tried it.

John, it depends. Don makes 5/8 unthreaded (which fits Shopsmith and my Treadle Lathe), 1x8, 1-1/4x8, 1-1/2x8, 3/4x16, 1x12, in otherwords something for just about any lathe

Ralph

 

[n7bsn]

.......

Jerry - woodturner, furniture builder, steelmaker, metallurgist, materials application specialist - and yes, materials philosopher!!!

If memory serves that is "Philosopher" as a Doctor Of

 

[John Fabre]

John, it depends. Don makes 5/8 unthreaded (which fits Shopsmith and my Treadle Lathe), 1x8, 1-1/4x8, 1-1/2x8, 3/4x16, 1x12, in otherwords something for just about any lathe

Ralph

If he has one for a Oneway, i'm in.

 

[Dave Peebles]

Sorry guys but I just have to ask, when do you use faceplates?

I have a bunch that came with my lathes. I can't remember the last time I used one. I tend to turn between centers to get everything roughed out and balanced and then go right to my chuck.

Just curious,

Dave

 

[Bill Boehme]

... Oh, ya. warships are made from Aluminum, including the USS Independence LCS-2, which was commissioned in Jan 2010....

Would that be one of the new Littoral ships?

... Would you use an all aluminum engine block without steel sleeves for the pistons?

I think that you mean cylinders, but as a matter of fact, yes. Many reciprocating aircraft engines have either Nikasil or nitrided aluminum cylinder walls.

... I wonder what would have happened if we made our tanks out of aluminum or our battle ships.

Well, the M113 armored personnel carrier that I was trained to drive when I was in the Army during the Vietnam war was aluminum. While it was intended as a personnel carrier, its actual use was mainly to carry munitions and other supplies while the troops rode on top. It was not a tank, but it could stop small arms fire and it was fast -- really fast and could overrun enemy positions. There are also armor materials that are made of synthetic materials or ceramics that perform better than either steel or aluminum.

The load carrying structure of military aircraft is aluminum. There are tremendous loads imposed on the structure by the engines and very high wing loading under maximum performance maneuver conditions. Aluminum and steel are different materials and we can't use the same design criteria and methods interchangeably for the two materials. There are reasons for one over the other in critical applications, but not for something as trivial as lathe faceplates.

Something else to consider -- angular momentum. Large diameter high speed pulleys are usually made of high strength aluminum because the angular momentum of a steel pulley restricts it to a lower maximum speed. This really isn't a factor for woodturners because the wood would fly apart long before the faceplate does. It does however, illustrate that one material is not always better than the other for a particular application.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Sorry guys but I just have to ask, when do you use faceplates?

I have a bunch that came with my lathes. I can't remember the last time I used one. I tend to turn between centers to get everything roughed out and balanced and then go right to my chuck.

Just curious,

Dave

These days it is mostly for things like vacuum chucks and jam chucks and miscellaneous things that I thread onto my Oneway live center to fit a particular need for a turning. I used them much more in the beginning before I had anything else.

 

[Joe Greiner]

Sorry guys but I just have to ask, when do you use faceplates?

I have a bunch that came with my lathes. I can't remember the last time I used one. I tend to turn between centers to get everything roughed out and balanced and then go right to my chuck.

Just curious,

Dave

For platters and rings (phase 1). Also for custom-made chuck-like contraptions that could benefit by more direct connection to the spindle - not as many points of weakness or deviation. Re-mounting via faceplate seems to be more reliable in preserving registration than anything else. And multiple faceplates are therefore less expensive than multiple lathes.

 

[john lucas]

I have a half dozen faceplates that have waste blocks with custom shapes so I don't have to take the time to make another one. I do still use faceplates for larger hollow forms. Mostly on recommendations by turners who do these forms regularly. Tossing one out of a chuck is one thing I would rather not learn by experience.
Barbara. I had one of the Nova 6" faceplates. It was way too thin but did serve me well. I used it to turn things that were too shallow. I didn't want to waste any of the wood so I put use that faceplate and put the screw out in the perimeter of the bowl where they would be turned away later.

 

[Gretch Flo]

face plate use

Sorry guys but I just have to ask, when do you use faceplates?

I have a bunch that came with my lathes. I can't remember the last time I used one. I tend to turn between centers to get everything roughed out and balanced and then go right to my chuck.

Just curious,

Dave

Dave-I use my oneway 6" face plate on the outboard spindle. It is helpful for me to tighten the worm screw into the wood blank and tighten snugly using their bar into the sides of the faceplate. I have also used the plate when the pithy wood could not be held well with the screw. Gretch