Any tips for using Ellsworth hollowing tools?

[Jason Ramey]

Hello all,
Just wondreing if anyone could offer any tips on using the Ellsworth hollowing tools? I seem to be doing alright with the straight tool but when I use the one for hollowing the sides, it seems to beat me up and I am getting catches. I was able to turn a few decent small pieces yesterday but I got a nasty catch today that cracked my piece in half. Luckily, it was a small piece and I was standing to the side so I'm fine in that regard. I have his book and that doesn't seem to cover it very well (although it's a great book!

 

[David Shombert]

I used those a time or two when I first started hollowing. Obviously, they can work; Ellsworth's magnificent vessels are the evidence. They're harder to control than a lot of others because the tip is NOT on the axis of the tool; thus there's a torque that wants to twist the tool and you have to overcome that. Many other hollowing tools - John Jordan's, for example (my favorite), have a curve in the end of the side-cutting tool so that the tip is on the axis of the tool. Hence no torque. Harder to explain in words but easy to imagine if you look at one of those tools. But you've got the Ellsworth tools and probably don't want to spring for a different set. I found two things helpful when I used them: (1) use a hefty handle that you can get a good grip on, and (2) straddle the bed of the lathe if you can. Yeah, it's like riding a not-very-comfortable horse. I had a General at the time, and that Canadian cast iron is hard. But in that position - assuming the handle is long enough - you can rest your right hand on your right hip while the left hand guides the tool on the toolset. Hope this helps.

 

[Fadi Zeidan]

The side one is little tricky at first. Start with the tip pointing down and start rotating it up until it touch the side and start cutting. Make sure your walls are cut smooth, don’t leave deep grooves/ridges or it may catch.

 

[hockenbery]

With the side tool whenever the bevel makes contact you get a catch.
Keep the tip pointing down a tiny bit. This keeps the bevel off the wood.
Ditto what @Fadi Zeidan said.

I still do all my hollow ball ornaments with an Ellsworth style tool.

on larger hollowforms
I used the Ellsworth tools in a class with David an for a few months. Then I got the Stewart tools with the arm brace. This include a bent tool where the cutting tip is in line with the shaft - no torque when the straight part of the bar is on the tool rest.
I still use the Stewart bars for my scraper bits. I use the Bosch bars for hollowing now.

 

[GRJensen]

I found two things helpful when I used them: (1) use a hefty handle that you can get a good grip on, and (2) straddle the bed of the lathe if you can. Yeah, it's like riding a not-very-comfortable horse.

To illustrate the point, here is a photo I took of David Ellsworth during class at Arrowmont:

 

[Jason Ramey]

Thanks all! I'll try some of the things mentioned. I also just ordered a Jordan 1/2 inch hook tool. I'll see if I like that one better. I'm currently turning on a new Jet 1221 vs which I really love so far. That keeps me from being able to straddle like the image that GrJensen shared but I'll be getting a new large lathe to accompany the Jet in July.

 

[Richard Coers]

Where is the hollowing tool contacting the hollow form? I like it on center or just slightly below. Try sharpening it too. There aren't too many roughing cuts for hollowing, especially when done by hand. Slow the lathe, take lighter cuts.

 

[Bill Blasic]

Get a hollowing jig, for me a lot easier and more fun.

 

[Michael Nathal]

I think the headstock rotates on your Jet? That will help you get a more comfortable angle rather than straddling the lathe. Although a 21 inch bed is short enough you might be able to stand at the end anyway.

 

[Tom Gall]

I don't highly recommend this .... but it does work! Tightly clamp some locking vise grips on the tool shaft (behind the tool rest of course). If you align them with the cutting tip (parallel) you will have a good idea what position your cutter is in, and it will offer some torque arresting as well.

 

[Mark Wollschlager]

When you are blind hollowing, especially in a small object, it is important to clear the chips often.
The force of the spinning puts the chips on the insides right where you use the 'bent' tool.
Part of the "fun" of hollowing like that is stopping every few cuts and scooping or blowing out the chips.
As noted, rotate the tip of the cutter down a bit to lighten the cut.
Also don't hold the tool handle with a death grip, allow it to rotate with some effort and it will just stop cutting. Light cuts.
Beware of the right side of the hollowing opening.
If you touch the right side to much it will lift the tool and smack it on the rest. You will grip harder to regain control and BANG! if you are not lucky.
Also make sure the tool is sharp. And remember that when it is, it will be more aggressive and generate more chips ( and then you are back to the top ^ ).

 

[Dean Center]

Tom brings up how to tell where your tip is aimed when you can't see. While the vise grip idea would be effective and potentially exciting, when I secure the tool in the handle, I put the set screws straight up with the cutting tip 90 degrees counter-clockwise. When I'm inside, I can tell the angle at the tip by the position of the screws. Glenn Lucas has his students mark the bottom of the bowl gouge flute with a red sharpie, and you could to this on the base of the Ellsworth tool, as a similar alignment tool.

 

[Roger Wiegand]

When I took his class long ago Ellsworth's suggestion for making handles for the tools was to do an off-center section at the end creating an oval, then orienting the tool in the handle such that when the tip was in the right position the oval portion of the handle would fall into a naturally comfortable position in your hand. Seems to work quite well having a tactile cue.

Using a sharpie to put a stripe at 12 o'clock on the steel rod can also help keep you oriented.

I took that class and made those tools many years ago, I've just tried using them seriously for the first time in the last week. I can see this is going to be a whole new adventure! I also have the John Jordan tools, acquired recently. First time around with the hook tool and arm brace I had a catch that darn near broke my arm when the tool started spinning. I was supposed to be in his week class on hollow vessels in a couple of weeks, but that is, of course, postponed to the indefinite future. Time for more youtube videos, I guess.

 

[David Shombert]

Roger's post reminded me that there's an article in the current AAW Journal about making a three-faceted gouge handle, with the goal of having a handle that's more comfortable to use. The author is - you guessed it, David Ellsworth.

One other thing to add about the Jordan tools - one of the reasons I like them so well is that the tip is held in place with a set screw and is easily removed. Sharpening is much easier when you don't have the whole handle to deal with.

 

[Bernie Hrytzak]

When I took his class long ago Ellsworth's suggestion for making handles for the tools was to do an off-center section at the end creating an oval, then orienting the tool in the handle such that when the tip was in the right position the oval portion of the handle would fall into a naturally comfortable position in your hand. Seems to work quite well having a tactile cue.

Using a sharpie to put a stripe at 12 o'clock on the steel rod can also help keep you oriented.

I took that class and made those tools many years ago, I've just tried using them seriously for the first time in the last week. I can see this is going to be a whole new adventure! I also have the John Jordan tools, acquired recently. First time around with the hook tool and arm brace I had a catch that darn near broke my arm when the tool started spinning. I was supposed to be in his week class on hollow vessels in a couple of weeks, but that is, of course, postponed to the indefinite future. Time for more youtube videos, I guess.

The tip of the hook tool should be positioned so it is cutting at an angle. Holding it horizon will cause a catch. A good way to learn (besides instruction) is to turn a small open vessel 3 inch diameter (using a bowl gouge) and then practice your cuts on that so you can see how the tool starts cutting. Hold the tool so the ring is in a vertical plane, and then rotate tool tip (clockwise) into the wood slowly until it starts cutting. Your tool supplier can probably provide safe instructions for using the tool as well.

 

[Doug Freeman]

As pointed out out any tool with a cutting edge off center will create torque in the handle, even with a nice cut going, and can create high enough torque to cause serious injury with a catch. My question is why use a tool that can cause serious injury when alternatives are available? Just because a certain name is on them doesn’t seem like a good reason to me.

Bent tools with the cutting edge on CL are much safer and easier, and captive or articulating systems remove all the injury drama.

 

[Larry Copas]

I've been using the Ellsworth tools for about three years now. My first time I thought “this ain't fun”. Similar thoughts crossed my mind on my first bicycle ride, first swim, first time on roller skates, and etc. Hollowing with the tools seems like the natural thing to do now, no stress, no strain.

I just finished the Ellsworth class (excellent) about 3 weeks ago. I hollowed on a Robust AB and stood at the tail stock end as that is how David teaches now. At home I ride my lathe and prefer that method. I think the main thing is getting into a comfortable relaxed position.

I have one tool with the oval shape and two tools that I cut finger grooves with a router. Either way seems to work for me. All of my tools have red and green marks as a visual guide. I seldom look at them anymore, as I can tell how the tool is orientated just by the feel as it cuts.

Slight oval on the left.

 

[Jason Ramey]

Thanks for all of the excelent replies, you all are very helpful! I tried a few more small pieces in the last few days, it's much easier when I loosen my grip as some of you mentioned. It's also much easier when I turn the tip down a bit. Now I just need to figure out how to not keep trimming through the bottom when I go to part the piece from the chuck! I did it two times in a row after turning a few pretty nice hollow forms. I have been turning in the 3-4" range and I really enjoy this size range alot more than I thought I would.
One more thing, I received my Jordan small hollowing hook tool and I love it so far, it's really well made and is worth every penny spent. I'm planning on ordering all of them in the next mponth or so.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Thanks for all of the excelent replies, you all are very helpful! I tried a few more small pieces in the last few days, it's much easier when I loosen my grip as some of you mentioned. It's also much easier when I turn the tip down a bit. Now I just need to figure out how to not keep trimming through the bottom when I go to part the piece from the chuck! I did it two times in a row after turning a few pretty nice hollow forms. I have been turning in the 3-4" range and I really enjoy this size range alot more than I thought I would.
One more thing, I received my Jordan small hollowing hook tool and I love it so far, it's really well made and is worth every penny spent. I'm planning on ordering all of them in the next mponth or so.

It is easy to turn thru the side or bottom when you are having so much fun. So get used to measuring a lot. Better to measure than to feed the fire pit.

 

[Doug Freeman]

Thanks for all of the excelent replies, you all are very helpful! I tried a few more small pieces in the last few days, it's much easier when I loosen my grip as some of you mentioned. It's also much easier when I turn the tip down a bit. Now I just need to figure out how to not keep trimming through the bottom when I go to part the piece from the chuck! I did it two times in a row after turning a few pretty nice hollow forms. I have been turning in the 3-4" range and I really enjoy this size range alot more than I thought I would.
One more thing, I received my Jordan small hollowing hook tool and I love it so far, it's really well made and is worth every penny spent. I'm planning on ordering all of them in the next mponth or so.

A laser or vision system helps a lot. Ron Brown has a “universal” laser that fits hand held tools, and there are other various designs available. A vision system could be used for hand held as well. Otherwise, experience and measuring.

 

[Dean Center]

One simple suggestion I picked up from a demonstrator at a symposium some time ago:
Make a mark on the outside of your blank where the bottom of the piece will be, then mark where the INSIDE bottom will be.
For some reason, this makes it much more likely that I'll not hollow all the way to a single bottom mark.